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Propofol: Acute toxicity

i wouldnt see them as hiding it remember this was a leaked report. maybe only certain info was leaked or the media picked which info they reported on.drugs given to mj by the medics isnt intresting to the media
 
what i dont really understand about this is why murray messed up so much with the timelines. is he that stupid. going by the theory he gave mj the dip in the early hours and the 10.40am is a lie why even pic that time. he knew what time he called 911 so that time doesnt fit and he knew he made those phonecalls.was he really that stupid to forget these times when he told police he administered at 10.40. the fact he never told the police about the phoncalls shows he was covering that up(that if he did just forget) all these theories are driving me crazy. i wish the D.A would charge him and lay out the case so we know what we are dealing with
 
no, elusive the manner and cause of death were publically announced by the coroner's office . In that announcement the coroner listed the manner of death as homicide , the cause of death : propofol intoxication plus as a contributing factor lorazepam and other drugs detected were valium, midazolam, lidocaine and ephedrine.

those were the drugs found in mj's system . chernoff wanted then the AMOUNTS .
 
i wouldnt see them as hiding it remember this was a leaked report. maybe only certain info was leaked or the media picked which info they reported on. drugs given to mj by the medics isnt intresting to the media
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or maybe the coroner didn't list any drugs in his report given by paramedics and/or murray to revive, since they had nothing to do with cod? this would explain why the report didnt mention lorazepam; murray said he gave lorazepam to revive, why lie about this when he knew it would be easy to verify?


re ephedrine: it's also used as a decongestant & bronchodilator.

in an interview, randy phillips claimed mj suffered from hay fever, he said this in connection with the health check by the insurance company. - mj had inflammed lungs and possibly suffered from shortness of breath and related problems, maybe another reason to use a bronchodilator?

from the interview with phillips:

http://www.accesshollywood.com/mich...-doctor-david-slavit_article_22144?FORM=ZZNR4

”[He] was hired by the insurance carriers to come out here,” Phillips previously told Access Hollywood. “He gave Michael a pretty grueling five-hour physical and did all the tests...we were never privy to the patient doctor information, which we wouldn’t be. But our insurance broker told us that Michael passed with flying colors - those were the words - and all he had was a little hay fever.”
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about ephedrine:

http://www.drugs.com/ephedrine.html

What is ephedrine?

Ephedrine is used to relieve congestion due to colds, flu, hay fever, and allergies, and for temporary relief of shortness of breath, chest tightness, and wheezing due to bronchial asthma. Ephedrine may also be used for other conditions as determined by your doctor.

Ephedrine is a decongestant and bronchodilator. It works by reducing swelling and constricting blood vessels in the nasal passages and widening the airway, allowing you to breathe more easily.
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http://www.drugs.com/cons/ephedrine-oral-injection.html

BRONCHODILATORS, ADRENERGIC (Oral/Injection)

This information applies to the following medicines:

Ephedrine (e-FED-rin)†‡
[...]

Category

- Anesthetic adjunct (local and regional)
- bronchodilator
[...]

Description

Adrenergic bronchodilators are medicines that stimulate the nerves in many parts of the body, causing different effects.

Because these medicines open up the bronchial tubes (air passages) of the lungs, they are used to treat the symptoms of asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, and other lung diseases. They relieve cough, wheezing, shortness of breath, and troubled breathing by increasing the flow of air through the bronchial tubes.
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no, the coroner listed ALL THE DRUGS FOUND in his system . he classifed them in three categories:

1- the main cause of death : propofol intoxication .
2- contributing factor : lorazepam "attivam"
3-others did not contribute or cause the death but were detected : midazolam"versed", diazepam"valium" , ephedrine and lidocaine.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i wouldnt see them as hiding it remember this was a leaked report. maybe only certain info was leaked or the media picked which info they reported on.drugs given to mj by the medics isnt intresting to the media
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sophie said:
or maybe the coroner didn't list any drugs in his report given by paramedics and/or murray to revive, since they had nothing to do with cod? this would explain why the report didnt mention lorazepam; murray said he gave lorazepam to revive, why lie about this when he knew it would be easy to verify?
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This is what I think as well.

The official press release stated:

The drugs PROPOFOL and LORAZEPAM were found to be the primary drugs responsible for Mr. Jackson’s death. Other drugs detected were: Midazolam, Diazepam, Lidocaine and Ephedrine.

The final Coroner’s report, including the complete toxicology report will remain on Security Hold at the request of the Los Angeles Police Department and the Los Angeles County District Attorney. In accordance with this request, the Department of Coroner will not comment on its completed investigation.
CRH - 08/27/2009

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74713

It is possible that not all the drugs found in the tox reports were released in this statement. Maybe the routine resus. ones weren't considered relevant?

williamorange1 said:
ofcourse they think it is related to mj else they would not have seize it . I'm just trying to support your theory about the ehedrine being given by murray not the paramedics , since a very similar drug was siezed from his office although it was not actually detected in mj's system no found at his residence .

but a question remains , why mj was not given any drug to revive him by the paramedics and doctors at UCLZ although they worked on him for hour and half?
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The phentermine & ephedrine similarities does make things more curious.

Basically, I think there are three scenarios:

1) Paramedics / UCLA docs gave MJ ephedrine in a resus attempt. This is consistent with the coroner's press release. But why was this used? I cannot find any clinical evidence for using this drug in this type of situation. Plus, surely the paramedics / UCLA docs would not just administer one drug only for resuscitation...one would reasonably expect a number of different drugs to be used in these attempts.

2) Murray gave MJ ephedrine, either in a resus. attempt (again why this drug?) or for some other reason....Plus the paramedics / UCLA docs adminstered clinically relevant resuscitation drugs-details of which have not been released to the public yet.

3) Murray gave MJ ephedrine, either in a resus. attempt (again why this drug?) or for some other reason....and the paramedics, upon arrival at the house, knew MJ had already passed so didn't admin anything. But I think it's highly unlikely they didn't administer anything considering the time they spent attending to MJ.
 
sophie said:
re ephedrine: it's also used as a decongestant & bronchodilator.

in an interview, randy phillips claimed mj suffered from hay fever, he said this in connection with the health check by the insurance company. - mj had inflammed lungs and possibly suffered from shortness of breath and related problems, maybe another reason to use a bronchodilator?

from the interview with phillips:

about ephedrine:
Click to expand...

Yes. It is old school but possibly ephedrine could have been given to help his lung condition. It's not usually used as a decongestant anymore, there are other better choices, but is useful in some lung conditions.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
what i dont really understand about this is why murray messed up so much with the timelines. is he that stupid. going by the theory he gave mj the dip in the early hours and the 10.40am is a lie why even pic that time. he knew what time he called 911 so that time doesnt fit and he knew he made those phonecalls.was he really that stupid to forget these times when he told police he administered at 10.40. the fact he never told the police about the phoncalls shows he was covering that up(that if he did just forget) all these theories are driving me crazy. i wish the D.A would charge him and lay out the case so we know what we are dealing with
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Yeah, wtf about timelines? It's driving me crazy too-I mean obviously they should be extremely thorough, but what else do they need?
 
one important factor is ephedrine was not found at MJ's house , nor was found in Murray's bag . that points to paramedics using it , but again why did the police seize vials of appetite suppresant phentermine?
 
you know what elusive , murray said he administered propofol at 10:40 am and after ten minutes MJ was not breathing so that makes it 11:00 am , the 911 call was made 12:21 pm , the investigators knew that .

would not they ask Murray what were you doing for an hour and half before calling for help . there is something that does not make sense here . sure the investigators figured during the meeting these were an hour and half . but nobody said he performed CPR for an hour and half .
 
the time lines make no sense at all .. during the interview murray must have stood by his story that he did cpr the whole time until calling security, at least this is what the warrant suggests. - the warrant couldnt be wrong about this, i guess?
since he left out the bit about the phone calls he dug himself a nice hole from where he will have a hard time to get out, bc now he will have to explain to a jury how he was doing cpr (on the bed none the less) while hanging on the phone calling his office for half an hour (talking about what with a dying/not breathing mj on his hands??), but was not able to call 911 in all that time.

my best guess is he gave mj the last bottle of propofol around 10:40 and then left to do a couple of calls. when he came back around noon to wake him up he realized mj was gone. he couldn't tell this police since he wasn't supposed to leave mj unmonitored. also i guess when he came back mj was gone for quite some time and he knew paramedics had noticed this too. thus he couldnt claim mj had died at noon and had showed no signs of distress before noon.

re murrays claim that he gave mj propofol at 10:40 -- some have wondered why mj wouldnt be up by then, but maybe murray was telling the truth that mj couldnt sleep all night and he began to give him propofol in the morning (although he probably started earlier with it than 10:40). mj could have told murray to wake him at noon, he would have lunch with his kids and be rested enough to go to rehearsal at 2pm.
mj knew he had to be fit for rehearsal, it makes sense he would change his usual morning schedule to make sure he got enough rest before going to rehearsal which could have lasted until past midnight, like the day before.
 
would not they ask Murray what were you doing for an hour and half before calling for help
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u would think so its the obvious question. the issue is murray changing his story and saying no i found him at 12. how exactly is it possible to prove oneway or the other. how do the police prove he was lieing when he now claims he found him at 12 and how do u prove murray didnt just mix the times up when he first said i found him at 11 and it was a genuine mistake. there needs to be something inregards to the actual TOD i guess.of course murray has given so many diff stories that it shows guilt but u need more than that.if murray has ppl believing his story of i found him at 12 the worst he faces is having to answer the question as to why he was on the phone from 11-12.15 when he should have been monitoring mj and why 911 wasnt called straight away.would they beable to tell how long the diprivan had been in the system ie work out whether it was given at 2am or 10 am? cause depending on which road the D.A takes thats gonna be important
 
sophie said:
the time lines make no sense at all .. during the interview murray must have stood by his story that he did cpr the whole time until calling security, at least this is what the warrant suggests. - the warrant couldnt be wrong about this, i guess?
since he left out the bit about the phone calls he dug himself a nice hole from where he will have a hard time to get out, bc now he will have to explain to a jury how he was doing cpr (on the bed none the less) while hanging on the phone calling his office for half an hour (talking about what with a dying/not breathing mj on his hands??), but was not able to call 911 in all that time.

my best guess is he gave mj the last bottle of propofol around 10:40 and then left to do a couple of calls. when he came back around noon to wake him up he realized mj was gone. he couldn't tell this police since he wasn't supposed to leave mj unmonitored. also i guess when he came back mj was gone for quite some time and he knew paramedics had noticed this too. thus he couldnt claim mj had died at noon and had showed no signs of distress before noon.

re murrays claim that he gave mj propofol at 10:40 -- some have wondered why mj wouldnt be up by then, but maybe murray was telling the truth that mj couldnt sleep all night and he began to give him propofol in the morning (although he probably started earlier with it than 10:40). mj could have told murray to wake him at noon, he would have lunch with his kids and be rested enough to go to rehearsal at 2pm.
mj knew he had to be fit for rehearsal, it makes sense he would change his usual morning schedule to make sure he got enough rest before going to rehearsal which could have lasted until past midnight, like the day before.
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what a coincidence , he changed his routine only the day he died and murray was making phone calls to other states as early as 7 am LA time that morning
 
murray was making phone calls to other states as early as 7 am LA time that morning
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is there proof of that. cause theres an issue of phonecalls he made b4 11am.if any were made.will give us a clearer picture
 
the search warrant said they obtained all his phone records that morning . but then they said Drmurray told us he gave him propofol at 10:40 am and then........but his phone calls suggest he was on the phone for 47 minutes starting 11:18am.

the two assistants removed the boxes as early as 9 am LA time , so the phone call to remove them was certainly before 9 am , their uncle told TMZ they received the call from murray or his assistant at 7 oclock LA TIME .

since we have proof Murray did do phone calls to Houston and Las vegas after 11 am , after he discovered mj in dire need of help . then there is a huge possibility the early calls to the same states were in connection with what happened to mj that day .
 
but the coroner would be able to tell if mj had died early in the morning? could mj have died on 7am, but murray claims he died on 11am? that would be a time difference of 4 hours.
 
could mj have died on 7am, but murray claims he died on 11am?
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yes thats a theory many have believed from the begining. murray found him made phonecalls set the scene and faked the whole cpr on the bed thing.the TOD hasnt been revealed.but if we knew that it would help with fitting things together and explain alot of actions
 
elusive moonwalker said:
u would think so its the obvious question. the issue is murray changing his story and saying no i found him at 12. how exactly is it possible to prove oneway or the other. how do the police prove he was lieing when he now claims he found him at 12 and how do u prove murray didnt just mix the times up when he first said i found him at 11 and it was a genuine mistake. there needs to be something inregards to the actual TOD i guess.of course murray has given so many diff stories that it shows guilt but u need more than that.if murray has ppl believing his story of i found him at 12 the worst he faces is having to answer the question as to why he was on the phone from 11-12.15 when he should have been monitoring mj and why 911 wasnt called straight away.would they beable to tell how long the diprivan had been in the system ie work out whether it was given at 2am or 10 am? cause depending on which road the D.A takes thats gonna be important
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Propofol as a very short half life of 2 to 24 hours, but it's clinical duration is much shorter (wikipedia). But to know the time of administration they would need to know the dose that was administered and vice versa-and only Murray knows this. Maybe there is some other way of telling besides blood levels.

Fingers crossed they can get a fairly good estimate of TOD, even though the room was reportedly very hot.
 
maybe this is what the police are struggling with. if they are
 
Yeah. For the coroner to report acute propofol toxicity, IMHO the blood level would have had to be fairly high, so they should be able to map out a chart of some potential times and doses that would give these levels. But then 'marrying' this info to Murray's timeline and proving everything might be tricky.
 
IT'S HORRIBLE TO DIE BECAUSE OF AN INTOXICATION.... MURRAY should have taken care of him better and he'd have behaved as a doctor..it's was his job. tHESE CALLS are very misterious... I read he called his assitant.. he must be stupid.. CALL 911, this is what heshould have done.. but he didn't it after the incidente....I'm very sorry!!!!!!!

tHE WORSE THING is Murray still insists on the idea that he DID NOTHING WRONG.... I HATE him!!
 
Why would he inject him with more if he was in trouble. I think he tried to kill him because MJ was heard on the phone that night saying that he wanted to back out of the concerts. An employee said this and MJ later also called his father. This story came out right after Michael died and then just disappeared. But if it's true Murray could have been ordered to give the lethal dose and if he waited they thought it would be out of his system. There are too many mistakes and lies for this to be an accident. If the concerts didn't happen millions would be lost. If MJ was killed millions would be made.
 
MJsMagic said:
Why would he inject him with more if he was in trouble. I think he tried to kill him because MJ was heard on the phone that night saying that he wanted to back out of the concerts. An employee said this and MJ later also called his father. This story came out right after Michael died and then just disappeared. But if it's true Murray could have been ordered to give the lethal dose and if he waited they thought it would be out of his system. There are too many mistakes and lies for this to be an accident. If the concerts didn't happen millions would be lost. If MJ was killed millions would be made.
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And you really believe that if MJ had called Joe Jackson and told him this, that this information would not have been shouted from the roof tops? That they would not have traced the phone at Joes insistance and proven that he did make this call? Good grief.
 
williamorange1 said:
I'm more convinced now that Murray did find mj in desperate need of help and instead of helping him he FINISHED him , no other explanation whatever for the "acute toxicity from propofol" , what happened started as an accident but Murray decided to kill mj instead of helping him
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Maybe, I lean more and more towards murder everyday. Of course this is just with what little information we have, but I don't think someone would just chose to finish someone off instead of helping them, when up until the propofol he probably could have been helped.

I'm beginning to think that this was intentional and it was done this way to make it look accidental. I do not believe that Michael was awake when he was given the propofol and I think that is a very important piece of evidence if they could prove whether or not he was awake. I guess the big question for me is intent? Why? Why would Dr. Murry do this? Why would he want MJ dead.

I still can't believe I'm talking about this :no:
 
And having given the overdose, he failed to monitor him or get help soon enough. Was it the Propofol or the lack of proper action that caused Michael's death in the end.

It just all looks like it was done deliberately with whoever behind it hoping the worst that will happen is that it will be called malpractice or manslaughter.
 
hilliver said:
And having given the overdose, he failed to monitor him or get help soon enough. Was it the Propofol or the lack of proper action that caused Michael's death in the end.

It just all looks like it was done deliberately with whoever behind it hoping the worst that will happen is that it will be called malpractice or manslaughter.
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I'm betting it was the lack of proper action. I think it was an accident.
 
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