Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[ivy]

I have to keep in mind too that these are just snippits we are getting. Is all the testimony going to be available later on --on the court website?

(partial) depositions played in court should be added to the court system but there haven't been any documents posted for over a week. for some reason scanning of documents seems to be really delayed.

Personally I felt Ratner’s testimony was a risk for the defense for the very reason you suggested Ivy and it may very well haunt them. Ratner most likely gave Michael propofol outside of a medical setting as a sleep aid. Michael lived, however; it did not make the administration ethical. The defense will continue with Metzger and I am unsure what the benefit will be for them to even complete it. Each of these doctors is one in a long line of medical professionals who failed Michael.

well true or false the depositions does suggest that Ratner probably gave Michael propofol. His "can't recall", Van Valin testifying Michael showed him a box of Propofol and saying he got it on tour and probably Metzger saying Ratner gave something to Michael on tour will be enough to create the impression of Ratner & Propofol for the jury.

I don't know whether it will be a risk or not or how the jury will react to it but the benefit you aren't sure about is the same benefit AEG has been trying to get from these testimonies for a long time now- responsibility on Michael. They are trying to show propofol was Michael's choice and he got it and asked for it and he even had doctors willing to send him boxes of it or travel with him with no contract (ratner) and lie about it. the benefit AEG is hoping that the jury would see it as Michael's choice and responsibility, see it as an independent from AEG and TII and not held AEG responsible and liable. Remember verdict wise the jury needs to think AEG's conduct was a substantial factor in Michael's death, if they think TII or no TII, AEG or no AEG, contract or no contract and so on Michael would have gotten propofol from Murray they might not put any responsibility on AEG. I feel 80 days into the trial what both sides trying to achieve is pretty obvious.

 

[jamba]

Re Cherilyn Lee's testimony that MJ asked her to find someone to give him propofol on April 18th and again on the 19th. (he had already seen Metzger as well on the 18th and asked for IV meds for sleep, but didn't mention propofol according to Metzger). She said he seemed stressed, not himself, and he insisted she find him someone to give him the propofol b/c he could not sleep.

So this is what was going on around that time frame as far as I can tell: April 14th MJ meets with Patrick Allocco (represents AllGood), L Rowe, Joe at Sportman's Lodge and says Rowe is his authorized representative. He then revokes Tohme's Power of Attorney. Tohme makes a deal with Juliens to cancel the scheduled auction of MJ's possessions and Tohme gives Julien a check--which was for 2 million (MJ very upset re size of that check). Auction had been scheduled for April 22nd.

So this seems to be the stress going on around the time of Lee's testimony re asking for propofol. BTW, possibly Lee was so upset b/c she did not do what MJ asked--find him someone to give him propofol--he wanted an anesthesiologist. So he turned to CM?

I am actually pretty amazed that with all this talk of emails and pressure and MJ not looking well, absolutely NO attn has been given to the AllGood fiasco, the pressure for MJ to sign with AllGood and to accept Rowe as his manager for AllGood and for the TII tour as well. Alloccoo said that KJ and Joe were on board from the beginning with the pay per view reunion idea (beginning meaning October 08 when Joe meets with Allocco in Vegas), and AllGood later sues TII for $300 million!! Yet none of that comes up as a factor in MJ's stress level? In his turning to propofol by asking (acording to her begging) Lee for someone to give it to him on April 18th and 19th.

 

[ivy]

^^

That's an interesting timeline.

By March Murray is on board and to go on tour with Michael.

March Michael asks Dr. Adams to go on tour as well. Murray isn't happy about it. Adams agrees but doesn't hear anything back.

Early April Murray starts stockpiling Propofol.

Mid April Michael asks Lee and Metzger for an anesthesiologist - isn't certain whether it's for just that time or for the tour , it isn't certain if Michael is looking for a second person to go on tour or if Murray isn't giving him Propofol at that time and he's looking for someone to give it to him.

then by May according to Murray he starts giving Michael propofol.

I'm intrigued about what happened and how things changed. There's a million possible scenarios.

to me it looks like Murray was aware of Propofol by March and had started to stockpile. Michael's past propofol experiences looks like were with anesthesiologists and he might have been looking for one to give it to him while Murray would be the one to look after him or be the second eye. Adams was willing to do the job but we probably won't know if Murray told that to Michael or not. Did Michael try to find an anesthesiologist and thought he wouldn't be able to find one and finally agreed Murray to give it to him alone? Did Murray convince Michael he could do it himself? A million possibilities.

 

[Lena Lucy]

I think that Murray convinced Michael that he could do the anesthesia.

 

[Tygger]

Ivy, I think it's a risk to play the deposition for the very reason you stated: "do not recall" may equal suspicion and potential fabrication on the witness’ part. Many AEG witnesses have used "do not recall" as a steady response to the plaintiffs’ lawyers questions. If Ratner is suspicious, how will Phillips/Gongaware and other AEG witnesses using "do not recall" as a repetitive reply be categorized by the jurors?

Yes, it is most likely Ratner gave Michael propofol on whatever tour during the 1990’s as a sleep aid outside of a medical setting just like the man who killed him in 2009. Michael was NOT a propofol addict and definitely not a secretive one. Even if Michael was determined to get propofol without AEG’s alleged hiring assistance, so what? AEG would not be in court today except that they inserted themselves into that relationship. The claim is negligent hiring and the jury has to consider that as well.

I understand very well what AEG has tried to accomplish with this defense and I personally found it to be utterly futile. Pure deflection. Weeks of listening to doctors compete and fawn over Michael and supply him with substances to stay in his good graces only showed the opposite to me: AEG should have been wary of any doctor Michael wanted whether he was an active participant in his addiction or not. We shall see what the jurors feel very soon.

Jamba, Michael was not secretive about his issues and he was not secretive about what distressed him. Lee testified Michael told her he was under pressure to complete TII rehearsals. No witness has testified to Michael being pressured by any AllGood issues. AllGood was only discussed in the email between Branca, Phillips, and others. Phillips said Michael expressed interest in the AllGood venture. Branca replied to Phillips that Michael should not sign anything without his review as he was already contracted to TII. Of course no one at AEG showed Branca the employment contract Michael was to sign between himself, AEG, and the doctor but, that is another issue.

 

[jamba]

Leonard Rowe's book What Really Happened lays out the Jackson party line re AEG and the "economic enslavement" they put MJ under. (BTW, he says he and Joe met at Carolwood on the 14th of April, when MJ signed the letter Rowe had written re Rowe representing him in finances related to O2, but MJ hand wrote that this can be cancelled at any time. He also says Joe had not seen or talked to MJ in 3 years prior to then). Rowe believes Tohme was paid by AEG to block any other offers coming to MJ and that Tohme facilitated the enslavement of MJ, basically selling him out so Tohme could get his 100k/mo. He thinks Dennis Hawk was in on it as well. R Phillips is the bad guy who was pocketing $$ from scalping tickets (seconday sales) etc in a disastrous contract that put MJ under control of AEG. Rowe believes b/c MJ had to repay all production and artist costs that AEG fronted him, that MJ would have made hardly any $ from the TII shows and that he may have even ended up owing AEG $!

What is interesting is that Rowe openly says MJ was an addict and his dependency on drugs was known for years and he talks about a 3-way phone call between Rebbie, KJ, and himself re getting MJ into rehab in March 07:

March 07 Rowe calls Rebbie and says he is concerned MJ on drugs and “we need to do something about it quickly” she says let’s have 3-way with KJ call. “When we got Mrs. Jackson on the phone, I began to explain my concerns about Michael. I told her I believed that Michael was abusing drugs and we all needed to get together and try to get him in a treatment facility. She did not respond to me at all. I then said these words to her that I will never forget, “If you refuse to do anything, and something bad happens to Michael, you will never be able to live it down.” Her response was, “You are right.” But she still did not do anything to get Michael some treatment or help. I will never understand this as long as I live.”

and later on:

“In hindsight, it was easy for them [AEG] to do this b/c MJ was in such bad shape emotionally, physically, psychologically due to his excessive use of narcotic drugs for pain and other medical conditions taken for past injuries.” “His health was poor, his body’s addiction was very prevalent, his financial condition at the time was deplorable, and in my opinion, AEG knew it all, along with those who helped them to perpetrate this hoax on MJ and his fans around the world.” MJ would have defaulted on the promisory note for 6.2 M "b/c of poor health and addiction to medication which I truly feel AEG was fully aware of.”

Maybe this 3-way conversation is why Rebbie is a no-show?

AllGood sent AEG (Randy Phillips) a "cease and desist" letter end of March b/c they felt they had MJ under contract via agreement with Dileo as MJ's manager.

 

[jamba]

^^

That's an interesting timeline.

By March Murray is on board and to go on tour with Michael.

March Michael asks Dr. Adams to go on tour as well. Murray isn't happy about it. Adams agrees but doesn't hear anything back.

Early April Murray starts stockpiling Propofol.

Mid April Michael asks Lee and Metzger for an anesthesiologist - isn't certain whether it's for just that time or for the tour , it isn't certain if Michael is looking for a second person to go on tour or if Murray isn't giving him Propofol at that time and he's looking for someone to give it to him.

then by May according to Murray he starts giving Michael propofol.

I'm intrigued about what happened and how things changed. There's a million possible scenarios.

to me it looks like Murray was aware of Propofol by March and had started to stockpile. Michael's past propofol experiences looks like were with anesthesiologists and he might have been looking for one to give it to him while Murray would be the one to look after him or be the second eye. Adams was willing to do the job but we probably won't know if Murray told that to Michael or not. Did Michael try to find an anesthesiologist and thought he wouldn't be able to find one and finally agreed Murray to give it to him alone? Did Murray convince Michael he could do it himself? A million possibilities.

I checked Dr. Adams dates, and he says it was late March, early April (according to the summary). He says MJ asked him to go on tour but didn't want an immediate reply. When he did tell Murray, ok, I'm in (for 100k/mo for 3 years), he gets no answer from Murray at all. Also he reports Murray was very unhappy that MJ asked Adams to go on tour, so I am guessing that b/c CM looked so unhappy, hid the fact Adams agreed to go on tour from MJ, that CM did indeed convince MJ that he could do the job, and ordering the propofol on April 6th was a clear signal that he was going to do just that.


I do think MJ knew he needed an anesthesiologist and that's what he wanted. He obviously did not want CM to do it b/c he is asking Lee April 18/19 to find him an anesthesiologist, but finally since he has not heard anything from Adams (or CM lied and said Adams refused the offer), Lee refuses to do what he wants, Metzger also refuses, he goes along with CM.

 

[Bubs]

What is interesting is that Rowe openly says MJ was an addict and his dependency on drugs was known for years and he talks about a 3-way phone call between Rebbie, KJ, and himself re getting MJ into rehab in March 07:

March 07 Rowe calls Rebbie and says he is concerned MJ on drugs and “we need to do something about it quickly” she says let’s have 3-way with KJ call. “When we got Mrs. Jackson on the phone, I began to explain my concerns about Michael. I told her I believed that Michael was abusing drugs and we all needed to get together and try to get him in a treatment facility. She did not respond to me at all. I then said these words to her that I will never forget, “If you refuse to do anything, and something bad happens to Michael, you will never be able to live it down.” Her response was, “You are right.” But she still did not do anything to get Michael some treatment or help. I will never understand this as long as I live.”

and later on:

“In hindsight, it was easy for them [AEG] to do this b/c MJ was in such bad shape emotionally, physically, psychologically due to his excessive use of narcotic drugs for pain and other medical conditions taken for past injuries.” “His health was poor, his body’s addiction was very prevalent, his financial condition at the time was deplorable, and in my opinion, AEG knew it all, along with those who helped them to perpetrate this hoax on MJ and his fans around the world.” MJ would have defaulted on the promisory note for 6.2 M "b/c of poor health and addiction to medication which I truly feel AEG was fully aware of.”

Maybe this 3-way conversation is why Rebbie is a no-show?

AllGood sent AEG (Randy Phillips) a "cease and desist" letter end of March b/c they felt they had MJ under contract via agreement with Dileo as MJ's manager.

LR is full of s..t!
Funny that in March 07 he says MJ was in bad shape and addict, but it didn't stop him begging MJ to do tour with Jacksons a month earlier:
February 17 2007 :
Janet, Rebbie, Jermaine, Marlon, Randy, Jackie & Leonard Rowe visit Michael at his Las Vegas home and ask him to reunite with The Jacksons and tour America which he refuses...

You know the usual way they operate, MJ refuses to do the tour with them, he is addict :angry:
LR says 2009 MJ was in bad way, but that one either didn't stop him pestering MJ to do tour with Jacksons.

I don't get it what he is after? Is he saying that to family it didn't matter that MJ was an addict and in bad way, as long as he toured with them, but if MJ went with AEG, AEG is devil making MJ to tour when he is supposed to be in poor health etc?
After this trial is over, I hope all of Jacksons disappear never to be seen in the media again.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger

Michael helped negotiate the rate the doctor was to be paid. There is no testimony or evidence that supports Michael requesting AEG hire the doctor at $150K/month as opposed to an advance.

And equally there is no evidence or testimony supporting that Michael didn't want any hiring set up how it was.

************************************************
This just makes me so sad.

Leonard Rowe's book What Really Happened lays out the Jackson party line re AEG and the "economic enslavement" they put MJ under. (BTW, he says he and Joe met at Carolwood on the 14th of April, when MJ signed the letter Rowe had written re Rowe representing him in finances related to O2, but MJ hand wrote that this can be cancelled at any time. He also says Joe had not seen or talked to MJ in 3 years prior to then). Rowe believes Tohme was paid by AEG to block any other offers coming to MJ and that Tohme facilitated the enslavement of MJ, basically selling him out so Tohme could get his 100k/mo. He thinks Dennis Hawk was in on it as well. R Phillips is the bad guy who was pocketing $$ from scalping tickets (seconday sales) etc in a disastrous contract that put MJ under control of AEG. Rowe believes b/c MJ had to repay all production and artist costs that AEG fronted him, that MJ would have made hardly any $ from the TII shows and that he may have even ended up owing AEG

As soon as Michael sticks his big toe back in the world of entertainment everybody wants a piece of him, a piece of the action - like circling vultures.

@Jamba I agree with you, people are so willing to be up in arms about pressure from AEG and yet they ignore the families involvement of putting undue pressure on Michael.

 

[Bubs]

ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 14h
A friendship started. He remembered one time he got up for work and opened the door to leave and there was MJ on the door step.

Dr. Van Vilan said he thought he an MJ were best friends. He said he never had a better friend and he didn't think MJ did either.

This is what is so wrong with these doctors. They are supposed to be doctors, not friends. All those doctors that we have heard of during the trial are talking about being friend of Michael's, and if they were good friend of MJ's, then they were terrible doctors :no:
---------------
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts 14h
MJ did discuss Diprivan (propofol) with Dr. Van Valin. He said he used it between shows on his world tour. Dr. on the tour give to him.
Dr. would give to MJ and monitor him not like the guy who gave it to him and left the room! Putting him to sleep like a dog

Whats that is about? Is he talking about CM or someone else?
----------------
Dr. said he never heard of propofol. Dr. Van Valin went back and told MJ it was dangerous. MJ had a box of Diprivan in his bedroom.
The medication was from florida but Dr. Van Valin did not know the doctor who gave it to MJ or sent it to him. Dr. describes the box.

AEG got point trought the jury. Many doctors and CL have testified that they told MJ it was dangerous, but MJ kept insisting that it is safe as long as someone monitos him. I can imagine Putnam's closing speech will include something about using propofol, even being told it is dangerous.

I was wondering if it was Alex Farshchian, the Florida doctor who gave box of propofol to MJ?
I did search, and he was the only one based on Florida. I assume that if you are based and have medical clinic in certain state, it would be odd to order medical stuff to other country (not even sure can you order medicine across the state borders?), so I think it is possibility that AF was the one who gave it to MJ. He was the one who inserted narcan implant on MJ.
Does anyone else knows other Florida based doctor who treated MJ or was MJ's "friend"?

From old article:
In one interview, a former bodyguard, Michael LaPerruque, described Farshchian to investigators as “Jackson’s physician and family friend” who was “awestruck by Michael Jackson.” According to the police report of this interview, LaPerruque said he felt Farshchian “may have been overprescribing medication.”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...-michael-jackson-investigation/#ixzz2eCHEPdnm
------------------
Metzger was Rheumotogist and Internist. Klein concerned MJ might have discoid Lupus but with tests he did not.
He thought he was MJ's primary but MJ doctor shopped. He would go to other places in the world and have doctors there and not share info

Is he saying MJ didn't have Lupus, or just he didn't have type discoid type?
With Metzger, AEG got what they wanted. Doctor saying MJ doctor shopped and didn't tell his primary doctor how and what others treated him with.
---------------
Ratner's testimony was useless, he couldn't remember anything. Funny that there were other doctors testifying that were treating MJ prior Ratner, but they were able to remember more than Ratner did.

 

[Bubs]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 7h
Jury will hear the remainder of the Deposition when they are back in court on Wednesday.


Alan Duke ?@AlanDukeCNN 14h
AEG Live now says it will likely rest without calling any more live witnesses. Jackson lawyers set to start rebuttal witnesses next week.

Is defense finished after Metzger? AD says live witnesses, but could it mean they may play more video depositions?
I don't know what to think of this trial, so many people were not heard during the trial that I wanted to hear about, mainly Tohme:no:

It has been exhausting experience, I feel like I have run 80 day long marathon and I finally can see end line.

 

[LastTear]

@Bubs

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 14h
MJ did discuss Diprivan (propofol) with Dr. Van Valin. He said he used it between shows on his world tour. Dr. on the tour give to him.
Dr. would give to MJ and monitor him not like the guy who gave it to him and left the room! Putting him to sleep like a dog

Whats that is about? Is he talking about CM or someone else

He is talking about CM. It reminded me of a time in my life that I'm not very proud of. Shortly after we learnt how Michael died I had to have my elderly dog put to sleep - the vet came around my house and gave her the lethal dose..... I loved that dog but all I could think of was that's what that b*stard did to Michael - he took the sweetest heart, the gentlest soul, the greatest entertainer and killed him like an old dog.

Ratner was useless, however I feel it reads like a man who has a lot to hide, thats why it was played for the jury. Ratner himself has been accused of being the man who introduced Michael to propofol, he sure is a shady one.

 

[Mneme]

What is interesting is that Rowe openly says MJ was an addict and his dependency on drugs was known for years and he talks about a 3-way phone call between Rebbie, KJ, and himself re getting MJ into rehab in March 07:

March 07 Rowe calls Rebbie and says he is concerned MJ on drugs and “we need to do something about it quickly” she says let’s have 3-way with KJ call. “When we got Mrs. Jackson on the phone, I began to explain my concerns about Michael. I told her I believed that Michael was abusing drugs and we all needed to get together and try to get him in a treatment facility. She did not respond to me at all. I then said these words to her that I will never forget, “If you refuse to do anything, and something bad happens to Michael, you will never be able to live it down.” Her response was, “You are right.” But she still did not do anything to get Michael some treatment or help. I will never understand this as long as I live.”
.....

Maybe this 3-way conversation is why Rebbie is a no-show?

@Jamba
I don't have this book but there is a link from Bubs:
Jetzi has Rowe's book http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi.../10wrh119.html
where I have read a little.

Honestly, I don't believe that Rowe because he tellsd his story from 02/03 2007 very confused (imo).
In the chapter 'Meetings with Michael' he is telling about this un-announced go-in in Michael's house with Janet, Rebbie, Jermaine, Marlon, Randy and Jackie. But this is NO intervention about drugs but ONLY for a concert tour.
(In his book and therefore in the hindsight he writes "When I saw Michael I could tell he was very nervous, .....; he was very thin...").
Rowe explained the re-union plan; Michael said 'Maybe next year in 2008, not now" and after a while Michael goes irritable. Rowe writes "I knew there was a reason that he did not want to do this."
Neverthelss, about 2 months later Rowe flew back to Michael (Las Vegas) -open is wheter announced or un-announced again- to speak with Michael alone. He called Rebbie because he need she for door opener to Michael. But the security lets Rowe not into Michael's home: the security guard call Michael and Michal says 'today no, come again tomorrow' and Rowe said 'I will come again a a few days' and Michael says "Okay"

It is open, wheter Rowe was there again after this few days because he writes nothing about that.

Question: What entitled Rowe for his saying in March 07 that he is concerned MJ on drugs and “we need to do something about it quickly”?

Maybe Michael hurted the vanity from Rowe because he wanted NOT speak with Rowe. And Rowe in his poetic license fabricated his own conclusion for that. And that is -in the hindsight- it was because Michael was on drugs.


Really, I wish I would know how many strories from Michael's "friends" and his brothers/sisters about "concerned about his drug consum" are a result of hurted vanity.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 14h
A friendship started. He remembered one time he got up for work and opened the door to leave and there was MJ on the door step.

Dr. Van Vilan said he thought he an MJ were best friends. He said he never had a better friend and he didn't think MJ did either.

This is what is so wrong with these doctors. They are supposed to be doctors, not friends. All those doctors that we have heard of during the trial are talking about being friend of Michael's, and if they were good friend of MJ's, then they were terrible doctors

This is a common theme with mj. He seems to have been one of those charismatic people of great charm who are able to make others feel they are important to them. Aeg are making out it's only doctors he did this to so he cd get something out of them, but he was like that with everybody, he just seemed to have had this ability to make people feel special - it's a nice trait but i guess some doctors blurred the boundaries, murray seems to be similarly deluded that he was mj's bff. As you say, that's on them, not mj.

Van valin seems like a really nice guy, there's a thread on the news forum about his book. He was careful in his book not to divulge personal medical info despite being asked to by the publishers. But i agree with petrarose, shame he didn't have a few more i don't recall moments like everybody else in this trial.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 14h
MJ did discuss Diprivan (propofol) with Dr. Van Valin. He said he used it between shows on his world tour. Dr. on the tour give to him.
Dr. would give to MJ and monitor him not like the guy who gave it to him and left the room! Putting him to sleep like a dog

Whats that is about? Is he talking about CM or someone else?

I can't imagine he's talking about any other doc but murray.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

The benefit AEG is hoping that the jury would see it as Michael's choice and responsibility, see it as an independent from AEG and TII and not held AEG responsible and liable. Remember verdict wise the jury needs to think AEG's conduct was a substantial factor in Michael's death, if they think TII or no TII, AEG or no AEG, contract or no contract and so on Michael would have gotten propofol from Murray they might not put any responsibility on AEG. I feel 80 days into the trial what both sides trying to achieve is pretty obvious.

Poor argument from aeg then, how is it remotely feasible that mj would be having murray putting him under with propofol/benzos every night during may and june 09 if he wasn't preparing for tii? On an extremely basic financial level, where wd he have got the $150k a month to pay murray to leave his practises. He might have asked for prop before but getting it consistently on such a massive scale? Even when perfoming on the history tour, it seems he only got it on 2 occasions (is that right?).

@Tygger
@Jamba I agree with you, people are so willing to be up in arms about pressure from AEG and yet they ignore the families involvement of putting undue pressure on Michael.

Personally speaking it's because i don't know how you can compare the 2 kinds of pressures. Unlike with his family and allgood, mj had actually signed a contract with aeg, was in debt to them for $35m, and didn't have the option of just shutting them out of his carolwood mansion like he cd do with his family as aeg were paying for it. With aeg/tii, he was contracted to return to the spotlight for the first time really since the 05 trial, with a make or break series of 50 concerts which he was paying for in advance payments when he was already hundreds of $m in debt - as phillips said, it was do or die, tremendous pressure. With no contract or money advanced to mj, his family were just playing the 'i want to see you perform with your brothers one last time' card, the same pressure they had put on him since the 80s and which he had always resisted.

 

[LastTear]

Poor argument from aeg then, how is it remotely feasible that mj would be having murray putting him under with propofol/benzos every night during may and june 09 if he wasn't preparing for tii? On an extremely basic financial level, where wd he have got the $150k a month to pay murray to leave his practises. He might have asked for prop before but getting it consistently on such a massive scale? Even when perfoming on the history tour, it seems he only got it on 2 occasions (is that right?).



Personally speaking it's because i don't know how you can compare the 2 kinds of pressures. Unlike with his family and allgood, mj had actually signed a contract with aeg, was in debt to them for $35m, and didn't have the option of just shutting them out of his carolwood mansion like he cd do with his family as aeg were paying for it. With aeg/tii, he was contracted to return to the spotlight for the first time really since the 05 trial, with a make or break series of 50 concerts which he was paying for in advance payments when he was already hundreds of $m in debt - as phillips said, it was do or die, tremendous pressure. With no contract or money advanced to mj, his family were just playing the 'i want to see you perform with your brothers one last time' card, the same pressure they had put on him since the 80s and which he had always resisted.

Debbie testified that she witnessed propofol twice, Ratner can't remember anything, so we will never know.

Michael signing the contract was his choice, I can certainly appreciate the pressure he was under, but why is it ok for the family to add to it? In my mind you can't criticise one without the other?

 

[ivy]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 14h
MJ did discuss Diprivan (propofol) with Dr. Van Valin. He said he used it between shows on his world tour. Dr. on the tour give to him.
Dr. would give to MJ and monitor him not like the guy who gave it to him and left the room! Putting him to sleep like a dog

Whats that is about? Is he talking about CM or someone else?

He is talking about CM.

I don't think he's talking about Murray. Van Valin was in Michael's life between 2000 - 2003 I believe. Not in 2009. That discussion happened while Michael was still living in Neverland. It's probable that Michael was referring to Ratner and/or German doctors as "doctors on tour gave it to him".

edited to add: let me clarify : the doctor gave it on tour is referring to Ratner, German doctors or someone else. The doctor who did not monitor him is a reference to Murray.

Poor argument from aeg then, how is it remotely feasible that mj would be having murray putting him under with propofol/benzos every night during may and june 09 if he wasn't preparing for tii?

Van Valin testified Michael showed him a box of Propofol at Neverland either in 2002 -2003 and asked him to give it to him. Dr. Quinn testified Michael was at a hotel in LA when he asked for propofol in 1998 - 1999. None of these were related to a tour or a tour prep, both were "can't sleep give me Propofol" at a home or a hotel.

Jacksons want to show Propofol as the pressures of tour and therefore put the responsibility on AEG, AEG is trying to show it wasn't necessary limited to tour to remove responsibility from them.

it seems he only got it on 2 occasions (is that right?).

2 instances that debbie was there but how about "don't recall" Ratner? Do you really think Michael invited an anesthesiologist who worked with him at surgeries to overseas with him to travel, to hand out charity checks and not provide any medical care and gave him money for doing nothing because travel meant he can't work?

so it's 2 occasions that someone was a witness to it. After Ratner's deposition it's clear that even there was more, no doctor would admit to doing it and there won't be any medical record about it. the only medical records and mention comes from doctors who said "no" .

 

[Lena Lucy]

I hate all these "doctors", all Michael wanted was a good night's sleep.

 

[LastTear]

@Ivy, ah ok, I thought the question referred to who left him which is why I answered Murray. Yes, I believe he is referring to two different doctors.

 

[Petrarose]

They are under oath. A deposition is the same as court testimony, so if they do not tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God," and it is discovered that they did not, it means possible jail time. The "extra information" is IMO part of "the whole truth."

I have to keep in mind too that these are just snippits we are getting. Is all the testimony going to be available later on --on the court website?

The whole truth is the whole truth of what they ask you, not the truth of other things they do not ask you. No body tells all the truth in the way you claim. You can't go to jail if you say you don't recall. Someone has to prove you are lying and who is going to do that?

When I look at all the tweets from the video depositions, Dr. Van, Shannon, Ratner all kept back information that they felt would implicate them. They all pretend they did not know who was giving him something, or that they did not know there was addiction issues, or when they found out they said no. Yet you see them still giving him the drug. There is no all truth. People hold back things they think will implicate them, or what they want to keep private.

 

[Petrarose]

LR is full of s..t!
Funny that in March 07 he says MJ was in bad shape and addict, but it didn't stop him begging MJ to do tour with Jacksons a month earlier:
February 17 2007 :
Janet, Rebbie, Jermaine, Marlon, Randy, Jackie & Leonard Rowe visit Michael at his Las Vegas home and ask him to reunite with The Jacksons and tour America which he refuses...

You know the usual way they operate, MJ refuses to do the tour with them, he is addict :angry:
LR says 2009 MJ was in bad way, but that one either didn't stop him pestering MJ to do tour with Jacksons.

I don't get it what he is after? Is he saying that to family it didn't matter that MJ was an addict and in bad way, as long as he toured with them, but if MJ went with AEG, AEG is devil making MJ to tour when he is supposed to be in poor health etc?
After this trial is over, I hope all of Jacksons disappear never to be seen in the media again.

Is his writing coming from one of those tell all books. Randy did say that LR told him Micheal was not looking good, but Randy did not say if the family tried to help in any way. This comes after Katherine said AEG should have told her about Michael's condition.

 

[Tygger]

@Tygger

And equally there is no evidence or testimony supporting that Michael didn't want any hiring set up how it was.

Oh?

Let us say Michael did want to do what even AEG witness said was unheard of in their industry: a third party hiring a personal doctor for another (this is not the same as hiring a tour doctor for several individuals).

Why did Michael prefer AEG’s legal team draft the contract solely as opposed to his own? Why did Michael keep it a secret from his own legal advisors? Is that logical? Could he have been aware of the conflict of interest posed in the three party relationship and wanted to keep it a secret from his own legal advisors based on that?

There is testimony and evidence between Kane and Phillips that Michael wanted an increased advance and AEG rejected the increase. Michael did not control and had no control over AEG so he could not control their action to allegedly hire the doctor.

 

[ivy]

Why did Michael prefer AEG’s legal team draft the contract solely as opposed to his own? Why did Michael keep it a secret from his own legal advisors? Is that logical?

if that's the case why did he have the need to tell Gongaware, Phillips he wanted a doctor? why not order his own people to do the hiring and never discuss the doctor with AEG?

Michael did not control and had no control over AEG so he could not control their action to allegedly hire the doctor.

really now? saying I want Murray when AEg did not want to hire him. saying offer him 150 K per month when AEG refused to pay what murray asked for, isn't those control over not only AEG but the hiring process?

 

[LastTear]

Oh?

Let us say Michael did want to do what even AEG witness said was unheard of in their industry: a third party hiring a personal doctor for another (this is not the same as hiring a tour doctor for several individuals).

Why did Michael prefer AEG’s legal team draft the contract solely as opposed to his own? Why did Michael keep it a secret from his own legal advisors? Is that logical? Could he have been aware of the conflict of interest posed in the three party relationship and wanted to keep it a secret from his own legal advisors based on that?

There is testimony and evidence between Kane and Phillips that Michael wanted an increased advance and AEG rejected the increase. Michael did not control and had no control over AEG so he could not control their action to allegedly hire the doctor.

You have agreed that testimony has shown that Michael wanted Murray, yes? What makes you think Michael cared one way or another how he was hired.

Whether or not it is the correct way of doing things remains to be seen, but even if not it doesn't automatically mean there is a sinister intent.

 

[Petrarose]

Ivy isn't the 2 times Debbie talked about relate to the Germans. I thought she said they came the first time, set up and monitored. The next night or something like that he could not sleep and they came back and told him that is it. He could not do this all the time. Wasn't Ratner a different situation. Didn't Debbie also say Mertzer called the Germans? Did Mertzer mention this in his deposition?

 

[jamba]

Bubs, I agree there is a huge disconnect between Rowe saying MJ looks terrible and needs treatment asap, and at the same time wanting him to tour/perform. On the other hand, the AllGood show (s) were supposed to be later on--2010 or later, and Rowe states that he wanted MJ to go into rehab before he did any shows with AllGood. He also says he talked to Randy Phillips about rearranging the TII schedule so that MJ would have 6 months off to go into rehab and Phillips said, "Shove off." In his book there is a chapter on people who in his opinion betrayed MJ and AEG (Phillips), Tohme, CM appear but also KJ! Here Rowe seems to be following the line Joe also took at first that KJ refused to do what they wanted--spend a few days or more actually living at Carolwood to see what was happening there b/c they thought MJ looked so bad.

In going over the timeline, Adams said that he met with MJ and CM on a Sunday in late March or early April. I checked the 09 calendar and that would have been either March 29 or April 5. If it was April 5, it might explain why CM ordered propofol on April 6--to show he could do it and that Adams was not needed. Remember Adams said CM looked like he had just lost his best friend when MJ asked Adams to go on tour with him.

IMO the idea that MJ should have consulted his 'legal team' was not realistic b/c his 'legal team' was in Tohme's pocket, and this is one of the issues the Estate has with Tohme. Also Rowe says that an advance to buy a house in Vegas (6.2M advance) was being held by Tohme. According to Rowe, MJ said he hated Tohme by the time of the meeting on April 14th and that Tohme hated him right back. Nevertheless, Tohme had the advance--as MJ wrote in a note to himself, "Where's my house?" Also remember June Gatlin said MJ was afraid of Tohme, who was taking over everything and not letting MJ talk directly with his accountant, etc. MJ told her he did not know what was in his accounts. I think MJ really flipped re the 2M that Tohme gave Julien's to cancel the auction and to cover their costs of packing and transporting the stuff from NL, and maybe getting appraisals too? That is a huge amt of $ that MJ could not afford.

What I see is multiple pressures from different quarters mounting and converging in a time period where MJ did not have the support he needed. He might have initially wanted Rowe involved b/c Rowe was confronting AEG re practices he felt were not in MJ's favor (the ticket scalping, paying MJ in USD, not British pounds, the contract, which he called 'enslavement," and the fact there was never a signed contract for 50 shows (only for 31 shows). We already know this, but at the time it might have seemed that Rowe could be of help to MJ. On the other hand, the fact that Rowe was pointing out AEG's dishonesty and enslavement must have made MJ very nervous since he was under contract to AEG and so hearing all the negatives about that from Rowe would be nerve-wracking. Not to mention Joe--later on in the May 15 meeting with MJ, Rowe, Joe, KJ, RP, and PG, Joe goes on a rant against AEG and KJ has to calm him down (says Rowe).

Petra, yes, you are right that the chances of going to jail are minimal, but some people might take it into consideration. Maybe Van Valin has more of a conscience than Ratner and less to hide so he saw no harm in telling the whole truth?

 

[serendipity]

I don't believe Rowe (or any Jackson for that matter) was concerned about drugs before MJ died. I think he just says this now so it wouldn't look bad how he was pestering him for a tour from the moment he came back to the US. Remember how he and Joe called Friedman to tell him how they were taking over the London shows? They sure didn't sound concerned about no addiction.

 

[Petrarose]

I was asking which bodyguard was with Michael during the Madison show when Randy talked about doing a drug intervention there. It turns out it was Michael La Perruque.
-I got to know Michael and his life a little in these days and since everything had worked fine, they thought of me again when they prepared for the “30th Anniversary Concert” Michael gave in New York in September of that same year.


Bonnie You mentioned that Michael had a way of making people feel they are special, when Dr. Van said he knew they were great friends. La Perruque says:
-Michael also had a way of disarming people, or making people comfortable around him. He did not like people being nervous because of him because, being a shy individual, that made him nervous, too.


We were talking about the music after nurse Lee said she told him to turn it off. La Perruque says:

-…. Michael himself mostly listened to classical music when he was in the car or at home. This music helped him to relax and he needed it to drown out the music and soothe the creating force he always had in his head, which he could not switch off. It often kept him awake during the night and one could say that his biggest asset was somehow also his biggest curse.


Randy said that when he told Michael there were all those fans (can’t remember the exact number) out there waiting for the announcement. Michael got up and began getting ready. It seems he thought no one would show up. This is what La Perruque said about 2003 and up to Michael's death:

- But this terrible time haunted Michael because he knew there were still people out there that thought: “Oh, just because he was not found guilty does not mean he did not do it” or that he has paid himself out of it……..

Already prior to those accusations, during the time when his “Invincible” album came out, one of his biggest fears was that he would get up on stage and people would not love him or look at him with some kind of doubt and say: “You aren’t the Michael Jackson we love!” We can only imagine how bad this must have been for him after the trial. He was deeply scared that even his fans would question him and I think that is the reason why he avoided the public eye for so long. He was scared that he had lost people’s confidence and was worried that they would not love him anymore. Two weeks before he died, when I last saw him, he was still scared of that.


It is so sad that after he saw all those fans in London giving him all that love, he still had those feelings. I guess this is how fragile one’s psyche is when you do not grow up with love. It takes a lot to convince you, you are loved again. This puts his behavior that morning at the hotel in an even better context for me.

 

[jamba]

I don't believe Rowe (or any Jackson for that matter) was concerned about drugs before MJ died. I think he just says this now so it wouldn't look bad how he was pestering him for a tour from the moment he came back to the US. Remember how he and Joe called Friedman to tell him how they were taking over the London shows? They sure didn't sound concerned about no addiction.

I agree with you that making $ from MJ performing with his sibs was the paramount issue, no doubt. However, after the Feb meeting where Rowe meets with MJ, he says he had that 3-way phone call in March re MJ needing rehab that I mentioned above. So the reason I thought it was important is that here you have KJ being told directly that MJ needs to go to a treatment facility and she does not intervene or act, yet in court she wants to know what happened to her son. Also Rowe says he and Joe and Randy tried very hard to get her to move in with MJ in Carolwood and she refused. Rowe claims the reason was to find out why MJ was looking so bad. What Rowe says contradicts KJ's testimony in court--that she did not know about drugs, was not told, if only AEG had called her, etc.

Maybe Rowe is full of it, but there were others involved who need to reveal what they know about it (Randy, Rebbie, Joe, KJ). Why were they trying to get KJ to intervene in 07 and 09 if not about drugs? Also it is not necessarily either drugs or AllGood pressure--it can be both together--we want him to do the AllGood shows and we want him to go into rehab and get off drugs.

I am trying to look at the whole picture and not just a piece of the puzzle. If we just look at one thing alone, we miss the complexity of the multiple influences.

 

[jaydom7]

I think Leonard Rowe did tell Katherine he was concerned with MJ's appearance. Remember Joe said the same thing after MJ died. He actually said he blamed Katherine and told her to stop crying because if she would've went over there to check on her son maybe he would be here. Joe said that MJ looked frail and very thin to him and he was concerned and told Katherine to go over his house, but she refused saying something about MJ's privacy,. Well now MJ is dead and Katherine is wanting to know what happened to her son. Maybe if she would've showed concern during those months then she would know what happened to her son.. he was being drugged to death by Murray