Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Aquarius]

But that's the problem, in my opinion.

SOME of those doctors ALSO told Michael the truth, which was, not only is it not safe, it wasn't meant to help a person who had an issue sleeping. Michael chose to trust the person who told him what he wanted to hear. REAL TALK!

You don't get a real sense of sleep by using anesthesia. It provided a false sense of security, in my opinion.

Another thing I was thinking about was the fact that Debbie Rowe testified about doctors coming to the hotel and setting up a bunch of medical equipment BEFORE they put Michael under.

She also testified about Dr. Hoefflin having some type of medical suite, with all the proper medical equipment necessary to put a patient under.

Then comes Murray with his "Cracker Jack Box" filled with so-called medical equipment, not good enough to put an animal under. Yet Michael trusted this quack.

Didn't MJ see the difference in the medical equipment he had previously been accustomed to?

I was thinking the same thing about Michael not realizing the difference or the lack of equipment in regards to the treatment. And even if the docs didn't tell him about the correct use of propofol, he was a well read person & I'm sure (maybe i'm wrong) but I feel sure that he knew what could happen when someone is under anesthesia. But still, I believe that doesn't make him responsible for his death, Conrad was there to watch Michael while he was under & Conrad failed. His stupid distractions and his lack care were the reasons Michael died.

 

[crillon]

Through testimony we've learned that Randy Philips did in fact suspect drugs, doctor misconduct, etc. Also, it was than just him being groggy leaving Klein's office that lead to those suspicions. He just suspected Klein. If you suspect doctor misconduct I'm not sure why you wouldn't suspect Murray, but nonetheless... they did suspect it.

I think that's a stretch of interpretation. He didn't suspect "doctor misconduct" necessarily, just that whatever Klein was giving him may be the reason he couldn't perform. At this point, they are trying to figure out WTH is going on when Michael has a doctor taking care of him, so they're looking at all the options--psych eval, blood tests, Klein visits, etc.

 

[That Other Fan]

not quite. their stance have always been "we did not know Propofol", they never denied the knowledge of pain addiction. they couldn't Michael publicly announced it in 1993.

There is no way no one could have known about Propofol though. Hence why testimony about his previous battle with addiction is so important. The narrative is: "He was addicted and doctor shopping. Murray was yet another doctor found to do what Michael pleased. We can't be held responsible because he had these issues for years. He was secretive and did little to rehabilitate himself."

At least, that's what I see.

Debbie's testimony goes against that. They got that he did in fact have a history with doctors and dependency, but Debbie paints a picture of a person that trusted people too easily (especially his doctors) and that those doctors did in fact take advantage of him.

That's not beneficial to AEG's narrative.

"secretive" can be established if no one had a clear idea of what is going on. that's exactly AEG's defense that they did not know either.

They didn't know the specifics, but they did suspect it. There's no way for them to get around that.

I don't think AEG's strategy is to make him unsympathetic, their strategy is to make him responsible for his actions.

Having him portrayed as sympathetic, especially in a situation regarding his doctors, and them taking advantage of his trust being part of the reason he even developed dependency/addiction issues.... that's not helpful to their overall case.

 

[#MJforever57]

AEG did not "get involved" with Murray--Michael did. Murray was Michael's idea, not AEG's idea. Had Michael not asked Murray to give him propofol (or even asked someone else), Michael would be alive and AEG would not be the victim of a multi-billion dollar lawsuit.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda...The bottom line is always the same to me--Murray is responsible for Michael's death. Period.

Now that i do agree on with you.

 

[susna]

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/63117/jacksons-ex-wife-debbie-rowe-testifies

I suspect she spoke to Michael as apposed to seeing him and maybe got to see the children, hence why she mentioned Paris's age.

What I don't get is why she changed this date. The last time she saw him is unforgettable for her for sure. She was clear when was asked during her testimony in 2005 about the last time she saw him. Rowe said more than one it was in 1999. Wonder what is truth and what not of her last statemtents in the KJ vs AEG.

 

[HIStory]

I'm surprised we didn't hear Ratners name yesterday.

Yes, indeed. When Lisa Marie Presley was interviewed by the police in the Murray case she said she saw two doctors with Michael on HIStory tour, Neal Ratner and Alan Metzger.

 

[jamba]

You are so right that all Michael needed was some sleep. A Sleep Center would have been the perfect thing for Michael their could have found out why Michael could not sleep. He did not need Propofol. I find that very odd that not one doctor like you said suggested that. Do their know that it would have only took one doctor to suggest this Michael would be alive today just one person.

The problem with insomnia is when you have it, it is a major major issue but when you get some good sleep and feel rested, the major issue vanishes. The doc in Ireland Treachy, said MJ was sleeping well in Ireland--so the insomnia was appearing sporadically, esp. in times of stress. When the stress was reduced, the insomnia went away. So when he was not having a problem, MJ didn't feel the need to go to a sleep center. When he had severe insonnia and had to function at a high level, as when touring, he fell back on propofol as a last resort (HIStory), yet he did not (apparently) use propofol all through the HIStory tour--2 nights is all we have heard testimony about. That is not an addiction.

Sounds like MJ had severe pain--so sad. People don't realize that a performer on his level was putting lots of strain on his body. Look at Lady Gaga. She is much younger, yet her strenuous performances gave her that hip problem.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

But still, I believe that doesn't make him responsible for his death, Conrad was there to watch Michael while he was under & Conrad failed. His stupid distractions and his lack care were the reasons Michael died.

Personally, I agree. I'm sure Michael knew how dangerous Propofol was. But there has been a lot of talk since Michael died that his main explanation to people for his use of Propofol to sleep was that he would be alright if there was a doctor watching him. And he had managed to survive using it in the 1990's because there were safeguards in place with the medical equipment and supervision by the tour doctors. But I think that Michael died because there was no working medical monitoring equipment and nobody watching him.

 

[Aquarius]

Personally, I agree. I'm sure Michael knew how dangerous Propofol was. But there has been a lot of talk since Michael died that his main explanation to people for his use of Propofol to sleep was that he would be alright if there was a doctor watching him. And he had managed to survive using it in the 1990's because there were safeguards in place with the medical equipment and supervision by the tour doctors. But I think that Michael died because there was no working medical monitoring equipment and nobody watching him.

Yes, Conrad was there to watch Michael and he didn't because his priority was to be on the phone. And I remember Walgren talked about a piece of med equipment that cost $40. or $90. which had an alarm that would go off if the patient would stop breathing and Conrad didn't have that. I can believe that was one of the stressor, if not the biggest, that Michael had at the time. The difference between Conrad's rustic med equipment to what Debbie described is big. But no matter how we tried to understand why or how this happened, we don't really know what was on Michael's head or how he felt. We can only assume that his need for sleep was so immense that he saw propofol as his only solution. It's sad that a person who wanted to do and did so many good things ended up in the hands of an arrogant and careless doctor. This is a tragedy.

 

[marebear]

All I see is that Michael trusted his doctors to look after his well being and they either took advantage of that trust or violated that trust. All these doctors should be on trial. We all put our trust and faith in doctors. I think this also shows that Michael wasn't a crazy addict looking for a quick fix. He had many health issues and things and he tried to deal with them privately and trusted professionals to help him. They were not helping him they were hurting him.

 

[CherubimII]

All I see is that Michael trusted his doctors to look after his well being and they either took advantage of that trust or violated that trust. All these doctors should be on trial. We all put our trust and faith in doctors. I think this also shows that Michael wasn't a crazy addict looking for a quick fix. He had many health issues and things and he tried to deal with them privately and trusted professionals to help him. They were not helping him they were hurting him.

I agree with you.

 

[Aquarius]

This breaks my heart:

"Anthony McCartney ‏@mccartneyAP 52m
Chang: “He felt disfigured?”
Yes, Rowe replied.
Chang asked if Jackson felt embarrassed. Rowe said he did feel embarrassed.

And btw, I don't think Michael looked horrible in TTI.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Debbie gave unnecessary and too much information ^^ IMO. I didn't need to know they were having sex.

 

[Petrarose]

I didn't say AEG knew Michael was taking Propofol their knew he had a drugs problem in the pass. Debbie said on two occasions in her testmony she went with Michael to Dr. Hoefflin office and what he did was gave Michael steriod shots in his nose this was to reduce the swollen scar tissue in Michael nose. Debbie said Michael couldn't stand the pain so Dr.Hoefflin gave Michael propofol to knock him out to do this procedire . Debbie witness this not one time but two time. that what i saw in her testmony. Maybe i read it wrong.


That why AEG should have never got invole with Dr. Murray in the first place this trial would be not going on now. Go back to what the two excerpts said this was a conficts of interests that AEG cause.

But what Debbie said about Hoeifllin giving Michael prof, has nothing to do with AEG. I don't understand how you leap from Michael getting prof from a doctor he thought was doing a procedure in the 90's to stating that is why AEG should not get involved with Muarry. AEG did not know that Hoeifllin did that.

Also, one of the things the last expert did for AEG was to show why AEG got involved with Muarry, and all the other people Micahel wanted. AEG put Ackerman on not only to help reduce damages, but to show that before he died Michael had no cash (according to expert) and in debt. Therefore, he was not able to pay for these people on his own. AEG scored 2 points, to me, in showing that Michael's debt showed that the plaintiffs would not be getting as much support and thus damages could be reduced. The other was to show that in 09 he had such little cash, morgage was past due, etc., that he was not able to pay employees on his own. So they are building a case to show why they got involved with Muarry. Michael had limited cash, needed staff but unable to pay them, Michael told AEG who he wanted since AEG had money, and AEG set up the contracts, would pay them for Michael, & Michael would pay back the money.

The thing is a jury is going to put pieces of the testimony together to form a story. They are not going to take out one piece like Debbie said hoefflin gave Michel prof, and then say to each other, "let's stop debating guys, AEG is guilty because Hoefllin gave Michael prof."

 

[8701girl]

I don't know if she was strong or not, but she did appear to be with Michael longer than anybody else. Even when he would fire her, she would always end up being re-hired.

Thats cuz the woman couldnt take a hint ! lol

 

[#MJforever57]

Yes, Conrad was there to watch Michael and he didn't because his priority was to be on the phone. And I remember Walgren talked about a piece of med equipment that cost $40. or $90. which had an alarm that would go off if the patient would stop breathing and Conrad didn't have that. I can believe that was one of the stressor, if not the biggest, that Michael had at the time. The difference between Conrad's rustic med equipment to what Debbie described is big. But no matter how we tried to understand why or how this happened, we don't really know what was on Michael's head or how he felt. We can only assume that his need for sleep was so immense that he saw propofol as his only solution. It's sad that a person who wanted to do and did so many good things ended up in the hands of an arrogant and careless doctor. This is a tragedy.

And that the sad part about this whole thing all Murray had to do is just watch Michael i still can't undstand why Murray didn't have second person in there with his did he undrestand that he was given Michael a drug that is only use in a hospital setting and not your home that you must monitor and watch the patient just in case their stop breathing you don't walk out of the room and leave them alone. Michael shouldn't have dying like this he had to much to live for and Murray took a big risk and it cost Michael his life and he got away with it.



I remember that very well what Walgren said.

 

[susna]

Debbie gave unnecessary and too much information ^^ IMO. I didn't need to know they were having sex.

Agree It was unnecessary to say...it's obvious the face of pleasure Michael had while was married with her. He had good reasons for sure.

 

[marebear]

I think this whole trial is too much information. Michael's privacy and things you know he would want kept private is all over the place for what? Justice? I don't think so. Other stars and celebrities should be thanking their lucky stars that their business isn't all out there. I am sorry for the rant but everyday I read what is going on in the trial and I feel uncomfortable and this awful feeling in my stomach. It's okay for Michael's life to be dissected when you know his whole family have their own skeletons and issues and that is all protected. AEG are no saints either and their personal business isn't all out there either. Everyday I wish Michael was still here but for this I am glad he isn't here to see this.

 

[crillon]

^^^The jury must be overwhelmed, too. That's the judge's fault--she allowed too much extraneous testimony having nothing to do with the central question: who hired Murray.

 

[8701girl]

^^^The jury must be overwhelmed, too. That's the judge's fault--she allowed too much extraneous testimony having nothing to do with the central question: who hired Murray.

Excatly! that is what this trial was meant to be about in the first place

 

[#MJforever57]

But what Debbie said about Hoeifllin giving Michael prof, has nothing to do with AEG. I don't understand how you leap from Michael getting prof from a doctor he thought was doing a procedure in the 90's to stating that is why AEG should not get involved with Muarry. AEG did not know that Hoeifllin did that.


Also, one of the things the last expert did for AEG was to show why AEG got involved with Muarry, and all the other people Micahel wanted. AEG put Ackerman on not only to help reduce damages, but to show that before he died Michael had no cash (according to expert) and in debt. Therefore, he was not able to pay for these people on his own. AEG scored 2 points, to me, in showing that Michael's debt showed that the plaintiffs would not be getting as much support and thus damages could be reduced. The other was to show that in 09 he had such little cash, morgage was past due, etc., that he was not able to pay employees on his own. So they are building a case to show why they got involved with Muarry. Michael had limited cash, needed staff but unable to pay them, Michael told AEG who he wanted since AEG had money, and AEG set up the contracts, would pay them for Michael, & Michael would pay back the money.

The thing is a jury is going to put pieces of the testimony together to form a story. They are not going to take out one piece like Debbie said hoefflin gave Michel prof, and then say to each other, "let's stop debating guys, AEG is guilty because Hoefllin gave Michael prof."

In the bold parts

1. I know AEG didn't have anything to do with Dr. Hoefflin i was just say in Debbie testmony she told AEG that on two occasions this is while she was on the stand that Michael had to be knock out to do this proedure and that he gave him propofol that is what i was saying there..

2 I did ask this question in this thread awhile back if AEG got invole because Michael couldn't pay and that Michael was going to pay AEG from his share from the concert you have answer my question that why AEG got invole i see the picture now



Sometime i put all of my thoughts together i will have to stop doing that because i can get confusing. That you for correct me on this. All for L.O.V.E.

​

 

[bouee]

As Ivy points out, it's suspicion of propofol that matters and that was completely off the radar for AEG.

As for Kenny, he was bewildered by Michael's condition at rehearsal when he had a doctor taking care of him. Kenny didn't think propofol was involved. He didn't know, and in that email to Phillips, he was saying let's get a psych evaluation.

Re bolded : this is what AEG says, it doesn't mean that this is what matters. If it was, it's impossible for the Jacksons to prove AEG knew and understood what propofol was and how it could be dangerous. There would be no trial if it was about that. Don't forget that AEG are defending themeselves. It's one of their argument, it doesn't mean it's true.

The Jacksons are pointing many red flags that point to 2 things : general drug misuse & doctor's misconduct, as That Other Fan says. That's what I've been saying for some time as well.
These 2 things (or at least one of them) were very obvious even from a layman's point of view, and Phillips DID suspect that. Why did he not suspect Murray remains a mystery (that I don't believe- Phillips is far from stupid- he knew that Ortega was suspecting Murray, he acted to reasure Ortega about Murray, not Michael).

AEG did not "get involved" with Murray--Michael did. Murray was Michael's idea, not AEG's idea and because Michael did not have any funds to pay him, AEG stepped in to help Michael out. That's the only reason AEG was "involved" with Murray.

AEG issued an indep. contractor contract with Murray, he was budgeted in the tour costs, Murray was negociating with AEG and asking his salary from AEG. He was in meetings, was asked by AEG to go to rehearsals, was doing Michael's rehearsals schedule , and was made responsible for Michael's appearancea ta rehearsals.

That's how they got involved, and they really didn't need to do all that, did they ?

 

[#MJforever57]

I was thinking the same thing about Michael not realizing the difference or the lack of equipment in regards to the treatment. And even if the docs didn't tell him about the correct use of propofol, he was a well read person & I'm sure (maybe i'm wrong) but I feel sure that he knew what could happen when someone is under anesthesia. But still, I believe that doesn't make him responsible for his death, Conrad was there to watch Michael while he was under & Conrad failed. His stupid distractions and his lack care were the reasons Michael died.

No you are not wrong i am sure Michael knew too what could happen because he said all i need is for someone to watch me and Murray didn't do that.

 

[Soundmind]

he jury seemed to hang on every word of Rowe's testimony, which included the singer's medical conditions, and the time they were watching "To Kill a Mockingbird" and called Gregory Peck with a question about the movie he had starred in.

She spoke of his concerts, which she described as “amazing,” and watching them from a seat on stage.

“I would see him and I would think, is this Michael Jackson? Michael Jackson was my friend before he was anything else,” she said. “I saw him, and I would say, ‘Oh my God, I know him.’ … And I would think, 'I’m so flipping lucky.’”

Jurors sitting for a 70th day of testimony in the wrongful death trial of Jackson's last concert promoter have laughed loudly at time during colorful testimony of Rowe, who alternated between tears and jokes.

good the jury seemed to like her

 

[#MJforever57]

^^^The jury must be overwhelmed, too. That's the judge's fault--she allowed too much extraneous testimony having nothing to do with the central question: who hired Murray.

Excatly! that is what this trial was meant to be about in the first place

When this jury get this case this judge will have to remind them what this case is all about.

 

[Petrarose]

So who is up tomorrow?

 

[ivy]

Re bolded : this is what AEG says, it doesn't mean that this is what matters. If it was, it's impossible for the Jacksons to prove AEG knew and understood what propofol was and how it could be dangerous. There would be no trial if it was about that. Don't forget that AEG are defending themeselves. It's one of their argument, it doesn't mean it's true.

just a little note. The summaries of summary judgment motion is available . You will see that the distinction between propofol and painkillers wasn't a point raised during summary judgment. so it wasn't considered before. Furthermore there are 2 ways to prove a negligent hiring claim - 1 - direct relationship between past behavior and future behavior ( a man with a history of violence beating someone) and 2 - totality of the situation (a man with 10 arrests in the last month from different misdemeanors being a risk). So your comment of "There would be no trial if it was about Propofol. " is kinda wrong because a) judge did not really consider it b) even if she thought there was no way to know about Propofol, she could have allowed this to go to trial and let jury decide about the totality of the situation could bring a foreseeablity.

 

[ivy]

So who is up tomorrow?

Court resumes tomorrow at 9:30 a.m. PDT with Dr. Gary Green. Green is a sports medicine specialist meant to rebut the testimony of the plaintiff's conflict of interest expert, Gordon Matheson.

so basically an expert witness who will probably say there was no conflict

 

[#MJforever57]

I think this whole trial is too much information. Michael's privacy and things you know he would want kept private is all over the place for what? Justice? I don't think so. Other stars and celebrities should be thanking their lucky stars that their business isn't all out there. I am sorry for the rant but everyday I read what is going on in the trial and I feel uncomfortable and this awful feeling in my stomach. It's okay for Michael's life to be dissected when you know his whole family have their own skeletons and issues and that is all protected. AEG are no saints either and their personal business isn't all out there either. Everyday I wish Michael was still here but for this I am glad he isn't here to see this.

I agree with you. IMO Michael private life should have remain private just like he want it to be. We didn't need to know.

Your last part of your post me and a friend was just saying that the other day we are glad that Michael is not here to see this it would really hurt him. Michael life is now a open book his privacy is gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fta8qYRsacI


Thank to the Jacksons and AEG.

 

[#MJforever57]

Another doctor?