Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[bouee]

That is the name of the game. Noone wants to lose millions, especially if they feel that they are not guilty of any wrong doing. Tmezz did the same thing in 2005. He dug out some dirt of A family and presented it on court.
Both sides on this trial are doing the same, throwing so much dirt around that none of them look squeaky clean after that.
Basically, as Putnam said it, we wouldn't be hearing those things if they weren't dragged to this extortion case.

I said that in my opinion it is unnecessary given how the trial is turning out. They choose their defense. It's not the first time they've done that, like again, using Paris depo re Grace : it was unnecessary at that point in the trial. IMO, they have to be careful with that. The jury might not like it. I certainly don't.
Anyone would understand if they felt AEG had to use those arguments. But they don't need to use them IMO, that's my problem.

Why bring up demerol, Blanket's incident, allegations when the Jacksons are giving unrealistic figures ? When Michael said, and Katherine and Paris confirmed it, he didn't want to tour that much any more ? That's taking it too far, and could backfire.

I'm not giving AEG a free pass for everything they say, the same as I don't give the Jacksons a free pass for everything they say either.

You assume a lot. First of, CM was the only one signed to contract, then it would have gone to MJ to be signed. What makes you think that it was 100% sure he was going to sign it and AEG people knew he was going to sign it?
You wrote it not like MJ could have force them. I think we all know about those broken contracts (lawsuits followed) that MJ didn't want to do reason or another. You keep repeating the same issue over and over again that AEG should have wanted nothing to do with CM. Assumption again. So far, there isn't any testimony in which any person says that they suspected CM was the one making MJ ill.
To me the whole situation was like they were playing "pin the tail on the donkey" game. They knew something was not right, but they couldn't pinpoint the source of the problem.
What Putnam said in his opening statement makes sense:
Putnam says to the jury it is easy to look to things in retrospect but asks the jury to look to what people actually saw, knew and understood at the time – before June 25, 2009. Putnam says they will bring people to testify about what they actually saw and experienced from Michael’s mother, kids to people who worked for & with him. Putnam says this will show what people were actually seeing at that time, what they knew.

I don't assume "a lot" that's been my opinion since we heard about Houghdahl's e mail, and the 8 weeks and 360 spins, and it's been confirmed through various testimonies.
Ortega and Travis were wondering about Murray. PG could not explain why hire a nutritionnist when you have a full time doctor, he did not "understand" it himself.
To me, it's basic common sense. They didn't need to pinpoint MJ's issures, they are not doctors. They needed to realise that it was not getting any better, to say the least, under Murray's care, and that Murray kept saying Michael was fine.
AEG's defense so far doesn't make sense to me at all. They suspected Klein when the visits to Klein were decreasing, highest dose of demerol was given in april, and by using Klein they are acknowledging they were aware of possible drug issues.
Whatever Phillips was thinking of Murray, whatever he thought about Michael signing or not Murray's contract, he used Murray to get Michael on stage instead of, at least, backing out of the situation.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

;That is the name of the game. Noone wants to lose millions, especially if they feel that they are not guilty of any wrong doing. Tmezz did the same thing in 2005. He dug out some dirt of A family and presented it on court.

How can you possibly compare tmez trying to destroy the credibility of a family bringing false allegations against his client in a he said/he said case with aeg trying to destroy the reputation of mj,a victim of a homicide by a doctor who aeg may or may not have hired/supervised?

Given what they saw, they should have stopped the hiring process of Murray. It's not like Michael could have forced them, he couldn't have in the last days. That might not have changed what happened on june 25th, but I don't think it's the point. The point is what AEG did. AEG should have wanted nothing to do with Murray, they had enough info to understand that something was wrong with him. But the opposite happened.

Yes, ortega's testimony was revealing. He certainly had enough judgement to have concerns about murray, but phillip's only concern seemed to be reassuring ortega that murray was an excellent unbiased and ethical doctor (which he knew as apparently aeg always check people out).

Who really would look to Murray as the reason for the change, when all evidence showed the reason was the tour itself, especially when you saw MJ's distress on the day that he was just announcing it.

Well, phillips was the main person who saw mj's distress that day and certainly didn't make the connection that mj's change was due to tour pressure. His only concern was to keep the show on the road, ditch the idea of a therapist for mj and keep ortega on board with reassurances that murray was a great doctor and cd handle mj's problems.

 

[Member Service]

Warning Please Note: anyone who further posts on this board accusing our members or staff as being paid operatives of the Jacksons, the Estate, Sony or AEG can and will be Banned at our discretion, no questions asked. That is a blatant attack on the board and our members. (That includes accusing members discussing evidence in this thread as being fans of the Jackson's or AEG as apposed to Michael) Do not insult or attack our members in this manner. choose your words carefully, If you are concerned over a post, please report it with the report icon rather than throw around accusations or insults toward our members and allow moderators to review take care of it. If you do not understand or have any question pertaining to this warning, please PM Admin account.

 

[gerryevans]

Well, phillips was the main person who saw mj's distress that day and certainly didn't make the connection that mj's change was due to tour pressure. His only concern was to keep the show on the road, ditch the idea of a therapist for mj and keep ortega on board with reassurances that murray was a great doctor and cd handle mj's problems.

Is the bold true? I got the impression that Phillips did make the connection that MJ was so filled with anxiety about the tour and putting himself out there again, that he was an emotional mess. Totally agree his only concern was to keep the show on the road, but I also feel that was what MJ wanted as well.

 

[Bubs]

How can you possibly compare tmez trying to destroy the credibility of a family bringing false allegations against his client in a he said/he said case with aeg trying to destroy the reputation of mj,a victim of a homicide by a doctor who aeg may or may not have hired/supervised?

Excuse me, I'm going to have to strongy disagree with you.
Jacksons are trying to destroy Michael's reputation, because they want billions from AEG, and they filed this lawsuit.

What do you suggest that AEG lawyers could have done in order to trying to defend themselves, and give an honest answer?

To me, it's basic common sense. They didn't need to pinpoint MJ's issures, they are not doctors. They needed to realise that it was not getting any better, to say the least, under Murray's care, and that Murray kept saying Michael was fine.

I didn't say pinpoint MJ issue, I said pinpoint what caused the problem.
We a going on circles again.
They needed to do many things but they didn't. Maybe because they lived the situation whereas we sit here judging them by what they did or didn't do. We have the easiest part, expalin afterwards what they did wrong

You say it is common sense to you that cause was CM, as MJ wasn't getting any better under his care.
Once again, they did not know it was caused by CM and for the sake of it, Michael also told his was fine.

 

[Justthefacts]

I don't understand how can anyone blame AEG when neither Murray or Michael were being honest about what was going on

 

[MIST]

Well, phillips was the main person who saw mj's distress that day and certainly didn't make the connection that mj's change was due to tour pressure.

I don´t know if it was Phillips or someone else who said Michael was scared that noone would come and see when he did the announcement,that people didn´t care about him anymore.

I think it wasn´t only Murrays treatment of Michael who made him decline , but also it was psychological.
Michael was so much better at the 2 last rehearsals despite Murrays drugs-I think Murray said Michael managed to sleep one night without propofol, but the other drugs where heavy too and I think Murray gave large amounts of them.

I don´t remember if it was Prince who said Michael had contact with someone in India via skype, something to to with meditation.
Maybe that person helped Michael to believe in himself,.. to be king of pop again, not just Michael Jackson.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Is the bold true? I got the impression that Phillips did make the connection that MJ was so filled with anxiety about the tour and putting himself out there again, that he was an emotional mess. Totally agree his only concern was to keep the show on the road, but I also feel that was what MJ wanted as well.

We were talking about the change in mj during the rehearsal period, and my post was about phillips not making the connection to the fact that mj cd be feeling tour anxiety during the may/june period. My point was that as you mentioned, phillips saw mj as a paralysed, emotional mess before the press conf, in fact he emails that it was the scariest thing he had ever seen, and so was in an ideal position to understand very early on that mj would be needing more than the usual support to get him to opening night.

It was very interesting to see the different reactions to this press conf incident. Ortega testifies that if he had known about mj's behaviour that day he would not have been so prepared to take up the position of tour director on tii as he clearly recognises it as a problem. Phillip's reaction within 48 hrs of this incident, was to increase the number of agreed shows from 31 to 50, giving (and this is phillip's side of the story) mj just 20 mins to decide as to whether he was happy to do it.

Excuse me, I'm going to have to strongy disagree with you.
Jacksons are trying to destroy Michael's reputation, because they want billions from AEG, and they filed this lawsuit.

What do you suggest that AEG lawyers could have done in order to trying to defend themselves, and give an honest answer?

You've lost me bubs, you were commenting on aeg destroying mj's rep, that's what my post referred to, nothing to do with the jacksons destroying mj's rep. As for aeg defending themselves, maybe prove that they didn't hire and supervise murray? I thought from this thread that posters thought aeg had a rocksolid case and the jacksons claims had no merit, so i fail to see why you think they should be forced to drag mj.

 

[bouee]

I didn't say pinpoint MJ issue, I said pinpoint what caused the problem.

that's what I meant. It was Murray's job to figure out what the problem was, not AEG's.

We a going on circles again.

I'm not sure you understood what I meant. If you feel we are going in circles, feel free to drop the subject or stop quoting me. I enjoy discussing, but I don't think we are going to convince each other, and that was not my point anyway.

You say it is common sense to you that cause was CM as MJ wasn't getting any better under his care.
Once again, they did not know it was caused by CM and for the sake of it, Michael also told his was fine.

They should have seen that CM was at the very least incompetent. That's all they needed to see. An incompetent doctor is dangerous. That's negligent hiring and supervising. They saw Michel's health declining under his care, and Murray saying that Michael was fine. That's more than enough for me.

 

[LastTear]

As much as I dislike the references back to the allegations and Blanket they did effect Michaels reputation, and AEG have used them in the correct context. Everyone on this board would believe Michael should be offered sponsorships, but would he really? And to be honest the way Michael has been described so far makes me ask just how successful would TII have been, yes the ticket sales and demand were there, but Michael still needed to do the shows. If there had been cancellations the press would have been all over it and that would have affected the likelihood any future tours. For the record I absolutely hate talking about Michael in this way.

Im prepared for much worse when AEG start their defence and whilst I won't be happy I understand that AEG have every right to defend themselves, the Jackson side knows that as well.

As far as we know Michael did not want to postpone the O2, if he hadn't pulled it together maybe AEG would have done just that. If Michael hadn't picked up and had remained consistently 'unwell' then I think, at least in part, my opinion would be different.

 

[Justthefacts]

They should have seen that CM was at the very least incompetent. That's all they needed to see. An incompetent doctor is dangerous. That's negligent hiring and supervising. They saw Michel's health declining under his care, and Murray saying that Michael was fine. That's more than enough for me.


That an easy thing to say now. Did AEG know Murray was staying at Michael's house at night? If they had no idea what if any treatment Murray was given Michael how would they know is him? It makes more sense they would think it was Klein because Michael was acting different after seeing him.

 

[LastTear]

@Bonnie Blue

I thought from this thread that posters thought aeg had a rocksolid case and the jacksons claims had no merit, so i fail to see why you think they should be forced to drag mj.

Regardless of how anyone might feel here nobody knows what the jury is thinking, therefore both the Jacksons and AEG have to present their case in whatever way would possibly lead to a positive outcome.

 

[serendipity]

They should have seen that CM was at the very least incompetent. That's all they needed to see. An incompetent doctor is dangerous. That's negligent hiring and supervising. They saw Michel's health declining under his care, and Murray saying that Michael was fine. That's more than enough for me.

I think you are working with hindsight here. Hhe was under the care of other doctors as well like Klein and possibly others. In addition Karen warned Frank that MJ was likely self-sabotaging as he had done before and Frank called Murray asking for a blood test to see "what MJ is doing". So I'm not sure that they should have seen that Murray was the problem.

 

[jamba]

Jamba, Michael's age would not matter here; Michael was responsible enough to do what was necessary to get the stability he wanted. Tygger

Age would not matter?? Are you serious? I am assuming you know no one over the age of 50. However, if you DO happen to know someone over the age of 50, please ask them how age affects them. If you know someone over 60, ask the same question. Then get back and share their answers. Otherwise, the claim has no merit.

Re MJ being "responsible enough." Well, let's look at something that is hard to acknowledge but true--he was NOT responsible in hiring Murray to give him propofol, was he? He was not responsible to his kids, to AEG, to his fans, to his own health and well-being. I totally understand the pressure he was under--the many accumulating pressures over decades, I feel outraged by the injustices that he faced with the shatteringly false and hurtful accusations, with his every move scrutinized and attacked by a bunch of vampires known as "the press," I understand the financial losses due to unscrupulous and dishonest business partners, the failures of the 'justice" sustem to protect him. I am totally sympathetic. However, I still have to acknowledge that his decision to partner with Murray and to conceal it from AEG was NOT responsible.

 

[Bubs]

You've lost me bubs, you were commenting on aeg destroying mj's rep, that's what my post referred to, nothing to do with the jacksons destroying mj's rep. As for aeg defending themselves, maybe prove that they didn't hire and supervise murray? I thought from this thread that posters thought aeg had a rocksolid case and the jacksons claims had no merit, so i fail to see why you think they should be forced to drag mj.

My reply was to your post, in which you said AEG is going to destroy MJ reputation, and I replied that it is actually Jacksons, who sued AEG and they knew what is to come. Without this lawsuit Michael's reputation and privacy would have stayed private, as it should have.

So far it has been plaintiffs who has presented their case and defendads has been replied to their questions and witnesses as normal precedure. I never said this case was rock solid, only shared my thoughts as the case proceeded, I never said I was anyones side, other than I said I hope Jackson's lose (for obvious reasons). I never said I think they should be forced to drag MJ. They just do, we knew that even before the trial started, just like Jackson's say he was addict 1 day and depended on drugs next day. Whatever suits both parties agenda.

 

[jamba]

I don't understand how can anyone blame AEG when neither Murray or Michael were being honest about what was going on

This is a rock solid point well worth making. Thank you.

With the concealment, AEG was in the dark and had to figure it out or try and figure it out. What was going on?

Doctors usually are given a lot of respect due to their profession alone in USA. They are almost never suspected of wrong-doing. So CM had that immunity going for him, as well as the fact that MJ was vouching for him.

The only way I can see MJ continuing to perform live or tour in any substantial # of shows would be in a drastically different kind of show. More like an 'unplugged" show, where he just sat on a stool and sang most of the numbers, and only danced a few of them. I think fans would have accepted that, but MJ was always the perfectionist and wanted to give not only the great, dynamic show of the past, but even push it further and make it more amazing. He wanted to outdo himself instead of paring down the shows.

As I said before, I estimate that in his entire career, from age 5 to when he stopped touring, he did approx. 500-800 live shows (in my estimation). So to say he would do another 448 is just nuts--it's saying that in the last years (15 years) he would duplicate the same # of shows as in his entire career.

Here is a quote from Moonwalk, published in 1988, when MJ was 30.

"I've learned it becomes more of a challenge as one gets older. I feel old for some reason. I really feel like an old soul, someone who's seen a lot and experienced a lot. Because of all the years I've clocked in, it's hard for me to accept I am only 29. I've been in the business for 24 years. Sometimes I feel I should be near the end of my life, turning 80, with people patting me on the back. That's what comes from starting so young."

These words make me want to cry that he was still performing at age 50, let alone the ridiculous idea of him reduplicating his entire performing career later in life. He was tired, he needed that rest, and to rest on his laurels--the awards, the music, the accolades. He needed to retire IMO.

 

[ivy]

Ivy, why would I expect AEG to force Michael into rehab when that is not necessary?

putting the show numbers etc aside, realistically we all probably agree that something needed to change for Michael to be able to do multiple tours. So there must be a theory there. Not hiring / firing Murray stops Propofol for good, Michael goes to rehab and gets clean, his sleep problems gets solved, or another doctor is hired who can balance the medicine like in the previous tours.

so something had to happen for Michael to be able to tour until 66. I don't know what but I'm not sure how realistic those expectations are.

All signs pointed to slowing down the TII process because the star was not able to perform as needed. It is only unrealistic because AEG was not willing to postpone this tour for any reasons including Michael's non-performance.

I kinda disagree and I think they ran out of time. I'll explain . Now I agree that AEG wasn't rushing to postpone the tour, which was actually from one perspective could have been to Michael's benefit too. I mean people were skeptical if he would be able to do TII shows, there were a lot of negative health stories going on. If they postponed the shows it would create more negativity for Michael and even might have cost his comeback. So they did not rush to postpone the shows. However I think a postponement might still have happened. Ortega testified he told Phillips if nothing changes, they might need to pull the plug. There was a second medical on July 6th. Assuming Michael didn't die and the negative effects of Murray's treatments continued, Michael wasn't ready, wasn't able to perform and could not pass the second medical and so on, it was probable that AEG postpone or cancel the shows all together right before the start of them. We just don't know.

How can you possibly compare tmez trying to destroy the credibility of a family bringing false allegations against his client in a he said/he said case with aeg trying to destroy the reputation of mj,a victim of a homicide by a doctor who aeg may or may not have hired/supervised?

Just a general comment. It's very common for any defense to attack the victim - regardless of the merit of the lawsuit or strength of their case.

It is no different than defense of Murray who was charged with homicide, claimed that Michael self injected. It's no different than defense of Zimmerman who shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old kid, brought in Trayvon Martin had weed in his system when he died. It is no different than defense of Jodi Arias who killed her boyfriend with multiple stab wounds, gunshot and slit throat, accused her boyfriend of sexual abuse. It is no different than Casey Anthony trying to shift the blame to her father. It is no different than defense of Jerry Sandusky , tried to claim that the victims that came forward were lying & did it for money.

So it's never nice, it's never fair but it's the nature of the beast. "blame the victim" is a very common defense strategy. We might get angry at AEG for doing that to Michael or wish they didn't do it but realistically it was expected the moment this lawsuit had been filed with a serious money damages amount - hence why some fans did not want this trial to happen. Actually what is unrealistic is expecting AEG to spare Michael or take some sort of moral high ground , they are being sued for billions, they are only going to think about themselves and themselves only. I'm not surprised to see that AEG would do everything they can - including blame the victim -to win this case, I'm just sad that poor Michael will get dragged.

 

[jamba]

Ivy, "putting the show numbers etc aside, realistically we all probably agree that something needed to change for Michael to be able to do multiple tours."

Yes, he had to go from emaciated, unable to do 360 spins w/o "falling on his ass," etc-- to the Amazing SUPERTOURER!

http://www.michaeljackson.com/sites/...Superman02.jpg

HOW was this transformation to be effected?? No one knows, least of all the clueless Erk.

 

[bouee]

I think you are working with hindsight here. Hhe was under the care of other doctors as well like Klein and possibly others. In addition Karen warned Frank that MJ was likely self-sabotaging as he had done before and Frank called Murray asking for a blood test to see "what MJ is doing". So I'm not sure that they should have seen that Murray was the problem.

Hindsight is hard to avoid, but trying every angle I can, I still think it was easy to see for Phillips, and he should have seen it. I have explained my point of view about that a lot of times, I don't mind doing it again, but that's going to be a boring thread....reading the same thing again & again. So that will be my last time, then we'll agree to disagree.

When Phillips heard about what had happened on 19th, he contacted different persons to understand what the problem was, not only Murray. Apparently he never tried to contact Michael before the meeting. He got all sorts of informations from different persons, pointing to the same thing : Michael's health had been gradually deteriorating, and certain mails/info pointed to possible drug use (Branca/Klein). Have a look at the emails of june 19th/20th.
He has been in all the meetings with Murray, and according to him was repeatedly told Michael was fine, yet Murray ended up doing the rehearsals schedule.
A few days after that, there is that june 20th meeting. He's there , he has talked to Murray on the phone for half an hour. During the meeting Murray is aggresive towards Ortega at first, then it appears Murray has a different version of the june 19th events from Michael. Murray says again everything's fine. That's really weird.

Basically, Murray and Michael are the only persons who thought he was OK. Almost everybody else sees a problem at that point, a continuing problem, not something that happened overnight. Problem : Murray is a doctor, he shoudn't act this way (being agressive), he shoudn't maintain everything's fine when there is obvuiously something wrong going on for some time. It was Murray's job to pinpoint what the problem was, it shoudn't have been AEG's guess.

He made the decision to use Murray to avoid cancelling / postponing the shows. As I had been suspecting for quite sometime, he was dealing with Ortega at that june 20th meeting, more than Michael's health.

Ortega and Travis had concerns about Murray. Which is basic common sense IMO at that point in time.

On the stand, his attitude didn't help him IMO. He had trouble admitting health / sleep issues were discussed, finally he admitted that those issues werte discussed. Why was Murray at the meetings if it was not to talk about Michael's health ? Why not be honest and straightforward about that ?

I said before I can understand Phillips made the wrong decision because he was under a lot of stress, but that doesn't make him not liable. And again, his attitude on the stand did not speak for him at all. He was not being honest IMO, and that is not acceptable to me. If he is found liable, he will owe it to himself.

That an easy thing to say now. Did AEG know Murray was staying at Michael's house at night? If they had no idea what if any treatment Murray was given Michael how would they know is him? It makes more sense they would think it was Klein because Michael was acting different after seeing him.

I think they knew - or Phillips at least- probably knew about Murray staying overnight. First they hire a nutristionnist/food person when they have a full time doctor who could do that. Then according to Prince Phillips came twice , unnannounced, to Carolwood "in the evening closer to the night, when Murray came around" and talked to Murray.
As for the treatments, the judge cleared that up : they didn't know, and even if they did they would have had no way of understanding how dangerous it was. That is solely on Murray, nobody else.
To me , that's about seeing Murray was incompetent & negligent. It can't and won't go any further than that. Propofol and secrecy are part of AEG's defense, the jacksons have a totally different angle. they basically only talk about what AEG knew, according to them, or what was visible for the non medical profesionnals that they are.
I usually never agree with the Jacksons, but I think they have point here, I think their arguments are stronger than what AEG seems to be saying.
Now that doesn't mean they were right to bring up this trial, to me it's a different issue. the trial is happening whether we like it or not. Personnaly, i'll make up my mind about that later, when everything has been said. Jacskons probably know what's ahead, we don't. We'll see if it was worth it or not.

I don't understand how can anyone blame AEG when neither Murray or Michael were being honest about what was going on

Everybody- I mean both sides- think Michael shares a part of the responsability, I agree with you about that particular point- ie Michael's responsability, to some extent. He trusted Murray and was lied to by Murray.

Just a general comment. It's very common for any defense to attack the victim - regardless of the merit of the lawsuit or strength of their case.

It is no different than defense of Murray who was charged with homicide, claimed that Michael self injected. It's no different than defense of Zimmerman who shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old kid, brought in Trayvon Martin had weed in his system when he died. It is no different than defense of Jodi Arias who killed her boyfriend with multiple stab wounds, gunshot and slit throat, accused her boyfriend of sexual abuse. It is no different than Casey Anthony trying to shift the blame to her father. It is no different than defense of Jerry Sandusky , tried to claim that the victims that came forward were lying & did it for money.

So it's never nice, it's never fair but it's the nature of the beast. "blame the victim" is a very common defense strategy. We might get angry at AEG for doing that to Michael or wish they didn't do it but realistically it was expected the moment this lawsuit had been filed with a serious money damages amount - hence why some fans did not want this trial to happen. Actually what is unrealistic is expecting AEG to spare Michael or take some sort of moral high ground , they are being sued for billions, they are only going to think about themselves and themselves only. I'm not surprised to see that AEG would do everything they can - including blame the victim -to win this case, I'm just sad that poor Michael will get dragged.

To me it's a question of degree. If it is useful or not. For axample, the Paris Grace video again. If AEG lawyers had used it during PG's testimony, to explain why he fired Grace, that was relevant. Using it to impeach Kai Chase on an irrelevant statement is low and unnecessary, and can backfire. I think there was a reason why they did not use it during PG's testimony. They understood it was a "sensitive" matter. They decided to go further and use it after Grace came back into the picture, after Paris suicide attempt.

But I also think that lawyers on both sides are ahead of us, in the sense that they know the evidence, they have the depos, etc... they know how they can be used. So when the Jacksons brought up Grace with PG, they knew what would be ahead for Paris. They certainly expected her to be asked about it on the stand and / or her video being played at that time. So they made a choice to bring it up, knowing what Paris had said, knowing that they or she would have to explain it somehow.

 

[jamba]

"Basically, Murray and Michael are the only persons who thought he was OK. Almost everybody else sees a problem at that point, a continuing problem, not something that happened overnight." Bouee

As far as I know, the Incredible Hulk did not see a problem. He was working out with MJ. I am not sure Gongaware saw a problem, eitther. He seemed to be convinced MJ would do a terrific show and was not concerned re any missed rehearsals. His take may have fed into RP's impression that Ortega was exaggerating.

However, let's assume for the sake of argument you are right and everyone but MJ and CM see a problem. What are the AEG powers that be supposed to do when MJ has his "miracle transformation" such that KO says he questioned himself--did I see what I thought I saw? Clearly at the meeting of 6/20 NO ONE thought MJ was going to die--NO ONE. So the urgency and the imperative you see to act and remove CM is all due to hindsight knowledge that he did die on 6/25. (RIP)

RE CM being involved in getting MJ to rehearsls, I got the impression this was b/c MJ was not answering calls and so someone had to receive the calls who had the ability to set a schedule. Presumably, Michael Amir could have taken the calls (although he was not there on the 19th--when KO says Where was his assistant?) but had no ability to schedule a rehearsal, so CM was the person nominated b/c basically MJ was not reachable directly.

 

[ivy]

To me it's a question of degree. If it is useful or not. For axample, the Paris Grace video again. If AEG lawyers had used it during PG's testimony, to explain why he fired Grace, that was relevant. Using it to impeach Kai Chase on an irrelevant statement is low and unnecessary, and can backfire. I think there was a reason why they did not use it during PG's testimony. They understood it was a "sensitive" matter. They decided to go further and use it after Grace came back into the picture, after Paris suicide attempt.

There have been a lot of indirect impeachment or let's say credibility questioning in this case. Karen Faye claimed she was close to Michael as brother / sister, TJ and Taj talked about how close they were with Michael, Kai calling Michael a friend and so on. AEG has been asking about how often they saw and talked to Michael. Paris debunking a statement Kai - who knew Grace for 2 weeks and Michael for 8 weeks -made. It all to demonstrate that these people were not as close to Michael as they claimed and if they were wrong about one thing, they can be wrong about other stuff too. To me it all looks like basic impeachment and not any different than Jacksons challenging AEg witnesses bad memories and inconsistencies.

 

[jrsfan]

This is a rock solid point well worth making. Thank you.

With the concealment, AEG was in the dark and had to figure it out or try and figure it out. What was going on?

Doctors usually are given a lot of respect due to their profession alone in USA. They are almost never suspected of wrong-doing. So CM had that immunity going for him, as well as the fact that MJ was vouching for him.

The only way I can see MJ continuing to perform live or tour in any substantial # of shows would be in a drastically different kind of show. More like an 'unplugged" show, where he just sat on a stool and sang most of the numbers, and only danced a few of them. I think fans would have accepted that, but MJ was always the perfectionist and wanted to give not only the great, dynamic show of the past, but even push it further and make it more amazing. He wanted to outdo himself instead of paring down the shows.

As I said before, I estimate that in his entire career, from age 5 to when he stopped touring, he did approx. 500-800 live shows (in my estimation). So to say he would do another 448 is just nuts--it's saying that in the last years (15 years) he would duplicate the same # of shows as in his entire career.

Here is a quote from Moonwalk, published in 1988, when MJ was 30.

"I've learned it becomes more of a challenge as one gets older. I feel old for some reason. I really feel like an old soul, someone who's seen a lot and experienced a lot. Because of all the years I've clocked in, it's hard for me to accept I am only 29. I've been in the business for 24 years. Sometimes I feel I should be near the end of my life, turning 80, with people patting me on the back. That's what comes from starting so young."

These words make me want to cry that he was still performing at age 50, let alone the ridiculous idea of him reduplicating his entire performing career later in life. He was tired, he needed that rest, and to rest on his laurels--the awards, the music, the accolades. He needed to retire IMO.

I think what someone says or writes at 29 or 30 would not necessarily be what they thought at 50. He did not need to retire or should have retired, 50 is way too young. He looked great in the movie although he was being drugged by Murray & Klein. He apparently was working on an album & seemed to want to do alot more, how much touring or performing, idk.

 

[Mechi]

I agree with you Ivy, AEG lawyers will might try the 'attack the victim' strategy and maybe have observers for each jury person in the room... but that's not an easy way for them... they have an 80+ old 'lady' and three underaged children one of them obviously already deep in probs cuz of the real drama in her life as 'victims'.
I honestly doubt that will work if they wanna pull them or even only Katherine through the mud... not even if the Jackson lawyers would all be complete morons.
Even if the siblings of Michael would get into the stand... the jury will only feel sorry for Michael if those would start to talk and that's why also feel sorry for Michaels kids.

Somehow the only way they have is trying to pull Michael through the mud... I wouldn't even overstress that in their position anymore. The jury knows they used Paris depostition and I have my doubts they blame Katherine for Paris problems.
Some fans are might able to look through the actions of the Jackson family. The average Joe out there still think she's the mother of all mothers... just pretty old and probably that's why abused at times. Plus the jury knows Paris Jackson tried to commit suicide.

AEGlive is in trouble as I see it.
And somehow... I wouldn't be too surprised if negotiations are ongoing aside from the stage already and if we'll hear as soon as the jury will be in their chamber about an agreement found.

Unless AEGlive lawyers do have something in their drawers nobody knows about yet... but I'm honestly wondering what that could be.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re MJ being "responsible enough." Well, let's look at something that is hard to acknowledge but true--he was NOT responsible in hiring Murray to give him propofol, was he?

Doctors usually are given a lot of respect due to their profession alone in USA. They are almost never suspected of wrong-doing. So CM had that immunity going for him...

I'm not sure why your argument that doctors are respected is a reason for defending aeg in not suspecting murray, but not a reason for defending mj who was trusting murray to administer prop.

No one knows, least of all the clueless Erk.

'Clueless erk' was the guy who did the valuation of the beatles catalogue for mj and branca back in the 80s which is an interesting little snippet.

 

[bouee]

"Basically, Murray and Michael are the only persons who thought he was OK. Almost everybody else sees a problem at that point, a continuing problem, not something that happened overnight." Bouee

As far as I know, the Incredible Hulk did not see a problem. He was working out with MJ. I am not sure Gongaware saw a problem, eitther. He seemed to be convinced MJ would do a terrific show and was not concerned re any missed rehearsals. His take may have fed into RP's impression that Ortega was exaggerating.

However, let's assume for the sake of argument you are right and everyone but MJ and CM see a problem. What are the AEG powers that be supposed to do when MJ has his "miracle transformation" such that KO says he questioned himself--did I see what I thought I saw? Clearly at the meeting of 6/20 NO ONE thought MJ was going to die--NO ONE. So the urgency and the imperative you see to act and remove CM is all due to hindsight knowledge that he did die on 6/25. (RIP)

RE CM being involved in getting MJ to rehearsls, I got the impression this was b/c MJ was not answering calls and so someone had to receive the calls who had the ability to set a schedule. Presumably, Michael Amir could have taken the calls (although he was not there on the 19th--when KO says Where was his assistant?) but had no ability to schedule a rehearsal, so CM was the person nominated b/c basically MJ was not reachable directly.

1st question : I would have ran away from Murray. Maybe on june 16th, definitely on june 20th, I would not have waited. But that's me. What both Kenny & Hougdahl described would have scared the hell out of me, and as a third party I wouldn't want to take any chances with someone's health, whether it was Michael or someone I don't know.
I can tell you I did that in real life. When I used to manage people, I have called myself doctors whether the staff member agreed or not, after an incident, and would not allow them to work without talking to a doctor first. I never checked the law before doing it.
Earlier on, when I worked in a hospital, I advised a family to take their son to another hopital, because I felt the doctor in charge did not care properly about the son. That was due to the doctor's attitude, because at the time I knew nothing about medical stuff. they did, and it turned out I was right. One thing that does give me a sort of hindisght is that I'm used to having medical staff/ doctors around me due to my experience in hopsitals, nursing homes or volunteering with handicapped people. So I'll grant you that, I don't understand medical stuff, but maybe I can pick a weird doctor faster than other people would . But still , I think Phillips would have had every reason to run away from Murray, I would not have blamed him for denying Murray to Michael in those conditions, even if Michael had survived.

2-Michael's schedule : Ortega was doing it, before Murray. So I guess something was not working, and Murray was not able to make it work either , because Michael kept not showing up. I don't know why Murray started doing it, but he also failed with that.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

He made the decision to use Murray to avoid cancelling / postponing the shows. As I had been suspecting for quite sometime, he was dealing with Ortega at that june 20th meeting, more than Michael's health.

I agree. I don't believe phillips/aeg were thinking of cancelling/postponing the shows on the 19th- it was only ortega who suggested that and he was the one who had to be sidelined and isolated. My feeling is that murray's aggression towards ortega at that 20th meeting, when murray's contract hadn't even been rubberstamped yet so he was quite far down the pecking order, was with phillip's approval. Phillips wanted the shows and murray clearly was saying the right things ie he wd get mj to rehearsals, so phillips just listened to whoever was telling him what he wanted to hear. I always thought murray's tale of this massive pressure on mj to attend rehearsals on the 25th as just made up, as he was trying to support a ridiculous self-injection argument, why allthis pressure on some rehearsal? But it seems clear now, there was this build up of pressure in this crucial week, and i personally see it on murray as well as mj from aeg.

What both Kenny & Hougdahl described would have scared the hell out of me, and as a third party I wouldn't want to take any chances

Esp if phillips had already witnessed a very scary situation with mj before the press conf. I find these emails upsetting, and it's not just with hindsight.

 

[ivy]

I agree with you Ivy, AEG lawyers will might try the 'attack the victim' strategy and maybe have observers for each jury person in the room... but that's not an easy way for them... they have an 80+ old 'lady' and three underaged children one of them obviously already deep in probs cuz of the real drama in her life as 'victims'.

I agree that there's an old grieving mother and young kids that lost their dad. So that would be sympathetic. In a David and Goliath setting, jurors do like to stick it to the big organizations as well but then you also need to account for how they will approach to Michael's responsibility - if any- and how these regular people will think about multi billion damages. You never know.

Plus the jury knows Paris Jackson tried to commit suicide.

that's a speculation on your part. they were ordered to not follow media about anyone involved in the case, so they should not be reading or knowing about Paris's suicide plus it hasn't been mentioned in court. So they should not be knowing about it or considering it when they are making a decision.

 

[MIST]

I think what someone says or writes at 29 or 30 would not necessarily be what they thought at 50. He did not need to retire or should have retired, 50 is way too young. He looked great in the movie although he was being drugged by Murray & Klein. He apparently was working on an album & seemed to want to do alot more, how much touring or performing, idk.

When Michael talked about the final curtain when he was 50 it doesn´t mean he was going to retire.
I´m sure he changed his mind on many things but he didn´t change his mind about movies.
He said he was still young enough to do concerts and the children were old enough to watch him doing it for this isit.
Maybe he thought it was to late to begin to work on movies when he was 65.

Another thing, he wanted a home together with his children.
His children would meet other children,become friends, have girlfriends ,boyfriends and maybe they wouldn´t have wanted to follow Michael on his supposed tours.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

So it's never nice, it's never fair but it's the nature of the beast. "blame the victim" is a very common defense strategy. We might get angry at AEG for doing that to Michael or wish they didn't do it but realistically it was expected the moment this lawsuit had been filed with a serious money damages amount - hence why some fans did not want this trial to happen. Actually what is unrealistic is expecting AEG to spare Michael or take some sort of moral high ground , they are being sued for billions, they are only going to think about themselves and themselves only. I'm not surprised to see that AEG would do everything they can - including blame the victim -to win this case, I'm just sad that poor Michael will get dragged.

Blame the victim is common in a civil trial even when a criminal trial results in someone else being convicted unanimously of manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt? I admit that i'm jumping the gun, but so far going by the opening statements, aeg verdict forms and pretrial skirmishes, aeg is blaming mj and only mj, not murray. No mj sharing responsibility in his death with the doc, it was all mj. I'm going to hold my hand up and say i'm surprised, and i'm surprised if i'm the only one who didn't expect this as i don't remember seeing any posters making this point pretrial. I suppose i assumed that aeg had a rocksolid case of not having anything to do with murray so could distance themselves painlessly from what murray and mj were doing re the propofol, that pre 25 june there were no warning signs or decline of mj apart from an off day on the 19th, but it all seems a bit more murky than that. If aeg are not going to put some responsibility onto a rogue, grossly negligent doctor during their case, then i'll wonder why.

 

[ivy]

Blame the victim is common in a civil trial even when a criminal trial results in someone else being convicted unanimously of manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt? I admit that i'm jumping the gun, but so far going by the opening statements, aeg verdict forms and pretrial skirmishes, aeg is blaming mj and only mj, not murray. No mj sharing responsibility in his death with the doc, it was all mj.

If aeg are not going to put some responsibility onto a rogue, grossly negligent doctor during their case, then i'll wonder why.

I explained this before and you are missing one thing. You need to look to the lawsuits, claims so on.

This lawsuit alleges that AEG hired Murray (as an independent contractor) and therefore are liable. AEG can't blame Murray. Because if AEG blames Murray and the jurors side with the Jacksons and think there was an employee / independent contactor relationship between Murray and AEG, they would find AEG liable. So IMO AEG cannot risk that and therefore they would go with the blame MJ route. Because if the jury sides with AEG and thinks this was all Michael's personal choice and responsibility, they cannot find AEG liable for what Murray did or did not do.


again from Jackson opposition document to AEG's verdict forms

Katherine's lawyers state that
- Murray has to be listed
- AEG's liability is coextensive with Murray's liability (any fault attributable to Murray is attributable to AEG)
- putting AEG and Murray on one line reduces confusion as KJ's lawyers claim AEG's liability and Murray's liability is the same.

by just looking to this information and knowing that Jackson lawyers is making an argument that "AEG's liability and Murray's liability is the same" and "any fault attributable to Murray is attributable to AEG" , tells you why AEG would not be putting any responsibility on Murray. Because simply put, in this instance blaming Murray would equal to blaming themselves. and that's the answer to your question.

I guess people approach to lawsuits as facts or truths or fairness etc, but in reality lawsuits is what you can prove and what you need to debunk. Yes Murray is responsible - at least a significant factor - in Michael's death according to the criminal trial but your common sense should tell you that AEG will not put any responsibility to him if they are facing "any fault attributable to Murray is attributable to AEG" claims from Jacksons.

edited to add:

The best defense position for AEG lies in denying everything. It starts with saying "Murray wasn't hired because the contract wasn't signed". However the jury might think oral contract was sufficient, so AEG also needs to argue "Michael hired Murray, we just advanced him the money". However the jury might disagree and think it was AEg who hired Murray. So then AEG needs to argue that the hiring wasn't negligent, no credit checks were required and even if they did do them it wouldn't show Murray was incompetent or a risk factor. They will need to argue they did not know or couldn't know about Michael's dependency issues, Murray's drug regimen and they could not pinpoint the problem. However guess what, jury might think just like bouee does and believe there was enough to prove that they should have known.

Then jury sits down to determine who is responsible and how much. If it comes to this stage it means jury thinks an employee/ employer relationship is present and AEG is going to be liable for the actions of Murray as they negligently hired him and exposed Michael to risk. Now the criminal trial said Murray does not need to be the only reason, Michael could have responsibility too, it was only required that Murray was a significant contributing factor. Criminal trial never determined who was responsible and how much. In this instance the jury need to decide who has how much responsibility. As you can see, in this stage AEG could be found liable for their independent contactor Murray so their best defense is to put the most or all of responsibility to someone else - in this instance that someone is unfortunately Michael.

and finally comes the money. showing as small as possible an income potential and establishing they have a small responsibility in the above stage, ensures that even in the worst case scenario AEG would not be ordered to pay big amounts of money.

and that's how AEG's defense mentality works.