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October 17 & 18 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

ivy said:
First of all I think that 8 pills of Lorazepam was new as it was only mentioned in the opening statement. Later during Anderson testimony they brought the concept of Lorazepam concentration was 4 times higher in the stomach.

And I think it's normal that the prosecution did not expect Lorazepam theory because if you followed all the hearings it was always about either Propofol swallowing or injecting (they wanted to test the syringes) or it was about Klein and Demerol (remember the hearing about the medical records in which Weitzman was shocked). And I think this was defense tactic they wanted to catch prosecution unprepared. They had come with the drinking theory, prosecution went all the trouble with the piglet and Chilean students to find out that they had dropped that theory in May. And now they pulled Lorazepam theory and luckily it seems like Prosecutors was able to respond very quickly.
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Yes, this is what I was thinking too. I didn't follow the pretrial hearings, but I did know that the defense's strategy was self injection of Propofol. If is was also about the Lorazepam, I would have picked it up from here since it's really important.

Also, I believe that the defense is randomly making up theories, just to see if there is one that will stick. Remember, they don't have to prove that that was the way it actually happened. Just that it may have happened, it's enough to create reasonable doubt, and that's all that's needed.

I'm also glad that the prosecution managed to debunk this one. To be honest, Murray's lawyers don't have much to work with. Their theories are either preposterous or just plain absurd ("he drank it" :blink:).
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

And they have no shame, don't they realize it makes their client look bad? Not that I mind, I'm just noticing. After all these lies they told in the interview and in the court, how is anyone supposed to believe that anything is true? They dropped the drinking of propofol (not sure if the jurors ever heard this one) and now they'll have to drop the lorazepam.

I'm surprised that Chernoff didn't go for "you know, since he liked needles and you know, he set up his own IV, found the vein and did everything by himself. My client was trapped in this unfortunate series of events and had no other choice but to sit and watch. He tried to prevent it, but he couldn't. And he only ordered the meds because he thought that if he did that, he would of convinced his patient not to use them. By himself."
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Lets not act like we can all do a better job the DA is doing. Very easy to sit back on your computer and play lawyer, doctor, and cop.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Soundmind said:
@ivy

If you were a prosecutor and the defendant told you I gave only 4 mg of lorazepam and you found later the amount in the victims body was probably double and even triple that number , as a prosecutor or let's say an investigator would not u try to determine how the extra lorazepam was given ? did the victim swallow it on his own or the defendant lied and actually gave more ?

You should assume as a prosecutor that would become an issue during the trial what the defendant admitted to and what the evidence suggests , I mean the coroner said one of the reasons he ruled the death homicide was the assumption lorazepam was not administered by MJ. So ruling out the oral lorazepam theory should have been part of the coroner work before he even sent his report to LAPD and the DA's office.

Yes they responded quickly but it's yet another indication their work was far from completein this case.
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I think you are forgetting protocols and rules followed by many government agencies such as coroner and LAPD. Anderson told us that they test it in the blood and only if the numbers are high they would look to it in the stomach and liver. He also told the lorazepam levels were high therapeutic.

Furthermore if you look you'll see that their initial report only considered self injection of Propofol and did not even consider drinking propofol or taking oral lorazepam.

and honestly some defense theories are hard to grasp. no one can grasp the idea of drinking propofol and in an environment when they had 10 pills remaining from the 60 pills for 90 day period, they probably didn't think about popping pills. IV lorazepam could be hard to establish as well as it wasn't found in the scene. In regards to Propofol they had an eye witness - Alvarez. and Prosecution had to prove their point without reasonable doubt. Coming up with theories and / or confusing jury wouldn't help them. Furthermore every bit of information they have they need to share it with the defense. It's apparent they had no intention of focusing on Lorazepam until it was brought up by the defense.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Thanks to everyone for providing this new info. Not for one minute did I ever believe that Michael took pills, I was always of a mind that Michael would never have been in a fit state to do or ask for anything, not with all that stuff Murray had been pumping into him.
 
Re: october 17th hearing

ivy said:
to me it sounds like Walgren has debunked 8 Lorazepam pills theory
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Ha we knew that would happen. The defense in their opening statement made some outrageous claims that they said they would prove, and unfortunately the media ran with that information.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Im not asking this to like disgust or offened anyone here but how would they do the stomach testing now??? has mjs stomach organs been like frozen & saved ?
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

8701girl said:
Im not asking this to like disgust or offened anyone here but how would they do the stomach testing now??? has mjs stomach organs been like frozen & saved ?
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they got the stomach contents - 70 mg (or ml) of dark liquid
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Now I wonder if this was intentional? And what will the jury be told
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Justthefacts said:
Now I wonder if this was intentional? And what will the jury be told
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Yes, Conrad Murray's actions were deliberate and he intended to kill Michael Jackson.
Either Conrad Murray is a "Corporate Murdering Hit Man" paid for by AEG or Sony, or he murdered
Michael Jackson because Michael refused to sign his AEG contract.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Not what I meant
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

So prosecution did not know previously about these additional stomach tests run by the defence and only saw that first in court?
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

daisy said:
So prosecution did not know previously about these additional stomach tests run by the defence and only saw that first in court?
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I have exactly the same question, I don't understand this test by the prosecution comes so late. We'll have to wait until testimony starts again, Anderson will be recalled to explain. I'm not sure it was exactly the same test as the one the defense ordered, it might be why the figures are different.

But at this point in the trial, it could be just a great thing, it tears the defense apart, and makes them look really bad to the jury and the general public. If the test shows that Michael was given much more lorazepam IV than what Murray admitted to, that would be .... a big public blow in Murray's face. He deserves that IMO, as much as he deserves a guilty verdict.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

thanks for this news everyone. I really hope this is the final nail required in the defense's coffin
 
Popescu said:
I think it's because the defense came later with "he-swallowed-8-lorazepam-pills" theory after the trial started. They thought they could speculate the fact that there was a little concentration of lorazepam in the stomach, and Murray knew for sure that he only gave IV that day. Ffs, didn't AR state that there were hemorrhages of the mucous in the stomach?
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yeah the A.R did say that. but rogers never mentioned it in his testimony. (would it be shaffers job to talk about that?) as its very important info and to not bring it up at all would be negligent
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

So the pros got their 1/40 finding after studying the defence findings.and that 1/40 was lower than than what the defence were claiming with the 8 tabs. so they then went and got everything tested themselves and the figure they got from their test was even lower than the 1/40. so in one sense we are where we were before interms of the defence have one set of figures and the pros have another.obviously if the pros have xtra info like they say about they know how the defence got those figures by adding two lots together.they can then show the jury how the defence got a false reading. but in many cases each side will have diff medical figures and its upto the jury to pick what they believeso in that sense the findings arent that much diff to what we already heard from anderson because 1/40 of a tab was a tiny amount already si presume that figure will just be reduced even more
 
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Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

ivy said:
they got the stomach contents - 70 mg (or ml) of dark liquid
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Oh ok thanks ivy

My gosh even with mj dead it still feels like ppl are like tearing him apart :( wish it would stop
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

elusive moonwalker said:
So the pros got their 1/40 finding after studying the defence findings.and that 1/40 was lower than than what the defence were claiming with the 8 tabs. so they then went and got everything tested themselves and the figure they got from their test was even lower than the 1/40. so in one sense we are where we were before interms of the defence have one set of figures and the pros have another.obviously if the pros have xtra info like they say about they know how the defence got those figures by adding two lots together.they can then show the jury how the defence got a false reading. but in many cases each side will have diff medical figures and its upto the jury to pick what they believeso in that sense the findings arent that much diff to what we already heard from anderson because 1/40 of a tab was a tiny amount already si presume that figure will just be reduced even more
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according to the defense test the amount of lorazepam found in stomach was 0.046599 mg
this is 1/43 of a 2mg lorazepam pill.

gastric volume was 73.5 ml (~70 mg)
this implies a lorazepam concentration in stomach of 634 ng/ml

this concentration is higher than lorazepam blood concentrations:

heart blood lorazepam 162 ng/ml
femoral blood lorazepam 169 ng/ml

according to the defense test, lorazepam concentration in stomach was about 4 times higher than blood concentrations.


the prosecution now has conducted its own test.

according to this new test, it seems lorazepam concentration in stomach was lower than what defense claimed, it's not 4 times higher than lorazepam blood concentration.
this also means the absolute amount of lorazepam in stomach was smaller; it's less than 1/43 of a 2mg pill.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Sophie, to rule out oral consumption, do they need to show that concentration is lower in the stmach content than in the blood ? If so, that would be a huge difference in the amount of lorazepam between the defense's test and the prosecution test ?
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Thanks sophie. medical stuff confuses me. give me a legal motion anyday! i guess we are just gonna have to wait till tom to see what figures the pros have. then things will be alot clearer.so i guess its more about the concentration levels rather than the actual amount in the stomach? the pros are saying the defence got the wrong concentration based on adding up two numbers together. which gave the defence such a high figure and the pros can show what the real figure is and that defence added the figures up wrong
 
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Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Firstly, everyone can you please stop with alternate theories about who is responsible in the case forum. If you would like to discuss this, please do so, just do so in the proper form.

Secondly, thank you to everyone for all of the updates.

Thirdly, I wonder if the Prosecution had known all of this before the trial started would they have changed the charges. Considering the fact that all defenses have been debunked & Murray really does not have an excuse for how he behaved & tests show he gave more than what he said, would the prosecution have felt more confident. They repeatedly ask witnesses "Even if MJ took more pills after Murray left", etc. It seems as if one reason they did not want to go for higher charges is because they did not want to have to prove that MJ did not take more drugs after Murray left the room. But now that they have virtually proven this anyway, & teh defense dropped the swallowing propofol theory, if the Pro would have done things differently. Just me wondering out loud.

Thanks everyone.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Thirdly, I wonder if the Prosecution had known all of this before the trial started would they have changed the charges.
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I think the prosecution knew all of this before the trial because so far all the testimony came from the prosecution witnesses, so obviously they talked with those witnesses before and knew what exactly they would be saying on the stand.
 
I have been reading about lorazepm for two days now and I don't know, it&#8217;s really hard to eliminate oral consumption 100% . When the defense pushed the drinking theory regarding propofol the expert had to eliminate the possibility that propofol could be absorbed in the stomach in the first place to eliminate the drinking BS, it was that hard with a substance that's not manufactured to be taken orally , imagine with lorazepam !!!So even if no lorazepam whatsoever is found in his stomach , the defense will still claim he could have taken it in the early morning hours and it dissolved and no traces of it would have been found in the stomach. But they told the jurors SCEIENCE will show you that Jackson took 8 pills on his own without his doctor knowledge !!! How the science could prove that? This is I believe when the circumstantial evidence helps the jurors determine 1.The guy was not taking his pills as they were prescribed.2. Murray said MJ did not sleep at all until 11 am, so the jurors r asked to believe lorazepam only worked ten hours later!!!3. The victim had very very very small amount of lorazepam in his stomach explained by Ion trapping, so why the assumption he took it himself? 4.The defendant had already admitted he gave 4 mg of lorazepam in a highly scripted interview 5.The defendant is claiming he gave less propofol than the amounts found, why would not he claim he gave less lorazepam too?6. A vial of intravenous lorazepam was half empty which means 20mg of lorazepam were messing, he could have used it on previous nights but he could have very likely used it that day. <o:p></o:p> It will be up to the jurors to decide, but Chernoff promising them that science will prove was a huge mistake, the jurors wants him to deliver.Again it would have been much better if Walgren was on the offense on this subject and brought up the high lorazepam concentration on his opening statement .he could have said &#8220;we believe he gave not only more propofol than he admitted to but more lorazepam &#8220;. I believe that was too much to expect from the prosecutors after all the coroner told the jurors he was searching for lorazepam using his EYES !!!!
 
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Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

I think once they rule out the MJ take 8 pill theory, it's all on Murray the jury knew he lied to the police and you never let a petaint have asecces to both of the same drug, once Murray started to give Iv ativan he should have take back the pill form.
CM gave MJ all those drug same pattern every night and fail to check MJ system to see what the over all effect the drug was having on him. He did not keep a record so how did he knew the drug was not messing with MJ, did he even check mj blood pressure before he start drugging him to sleep?
The drug in that house was CM responsibly he should have lock them up they are not prescribe drugs, if one of the children had wondering that room and take any of that drug he would be facing the same charges, it is inconceivable how irresponsible CM was.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

Can someone help me with this?? How is it restested by the defense AND pros? 2 years after??

Also at prelim i hear they say the bloodlevel was consited with 9 til 12 mg lorezapam. That is much higher that Cm told the police what he gave michael?? Why is the pros said then it was lower in the stomach later in this trial? 1/40??

Also Now there 3 test done? One back then by coroner? And now one by the defense and one by pros?? Are the one from the coronor and pros now the same results?? OR are there 3 different test results??

If it is 9 til 12 mg, then that helps the defense case???? Like its said early in a post, it was said that that is high very high level.


Im very confused, so i hope someone can explain it to me.
 
october 18th hearing

At 13.30 L.A time. judge wants an update from the defence on the new testing the pros has done. if they have looked through the documents etc

ill be at work during the hearing so appreciate it if ppl could post updates.
 
Re: October 17 hearing / No court on October 17 & 18/ New stomach contents testing

ginvid said:
Thirdly, I wonder if the Prosecution had known all of this before the trial started would they have changed the charges. Considering the fact that all defenses have been debunked & Murray really does not have an excuse for how he behaved & tests show he gave more than what he said, would the prosecution have felt more confident. They repeatedly ask witnesses "Even if MJ took more pills after Murray left", etc. It seems as if one reason they did not want to go for higher charges is because they did not want to have to prove that MJ did not take more drugs after Murray left the room. But now that they have virtually proven this anyway, & teh defense dropped the swallowing propofol theory, if the Pro would have done things differently. Just me wondering out loud.

Thanks everyone.
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Good question! It's possible that the charges would have been stronger, had the prosecution known. (But, those charges were determined by the DA, and not the prosecution, soooooo?)

The goal of any defense team is to gain an acquittal, by nearly any means under the law. Defense teams represent the guilty, all the time (and they know it)! The "he swallowed the propofol" line of defense might, indeed, have been a red-herring? And now, the "he secretly took eight (or however many?) pills" could also have been a red-herring? Did the defense "cook the books?" I.e. deliberately present WRONG scientific information? I think that's possible. The prosecution spent time researching a Taiwanese study, and PIGS, because they were deliberately thrown off-track by the defense? Yeah, I do think that's possible.

What I'm not understanding now is, what could the defense possibly BE, now? The "he drank it" theory has been dropped. I think that the re-testing will prove that he didn't "take the pills," either. So, there goes the "Michael did it to himself" line of defense? What is LEFT? Seriously, what remains of the defense?
 
Re: october 18th hearing

elusive moonwalker said:
At 13.30 L.A time. judge wants an update from the defence on the new testing the pros has done. if they have looked through the documents etc

ill be at work during the hearing so appreciate it if ppl could post updates.
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what time is 13:30? Sorry I know...I fail...:lmao:
 
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