Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial Day 22, November 1st

White just brought up the fact that you can't tell how often Michael took the lorazepam pills to know how many pills he could have taken on the 25th. :blink:

He just opened the door for Walgren to show when the prescription was written and how many pills were left in the bottle at the tim of death. It would be obvious that Michael, for sure, wasn't taking those pills as prescribed and as a result had no reason to suddenly gobble them down on that particular morning. Why THAT morning after nearly 2 months he decides to become a lorazepam eating machine? If he liked gobbling lorazepam the bottle would have been empty with a more current prescription in use. No sense whatsoever.
 
Flanagan confused the decimal points, judge told him to clarify and re-ask the question.

White says if the number was really 0.3 that you would see different results in the autopsy.
 
White states Dr. Ornallis' assumptions are reasonable. Flanagan states even if the number was less than 50% of 0.3 then the results would not be that different. White agrees. Whether it's 0.3, 0.2, 0.25, you still have a much higher concentration at the time of autopsy than if there was a 3 hour infusion as indicated as a possibility by Dr. Shafer. White agrees.
 
He just opened the door for Walgren to show when the prescription was written and how many pills were left in the bottle at the tim of death. It would be obvious that Michael, for sure, wasn't taking those pills as prescribed and as a result had no reason to suddenly gobble them down on that particular morning. Why THAT morning after nearly 2 months he decides to become a lorazepam eating machine? If he liked gobbling lorazepam the bottle would have been empty with a more current prescription in use. No sense whatsoever.
Click to expand...
very true. lets hope walgren picks up on that. ontop of mj saying to lee etc that oral stuff didnt work for him.
 
Flanagan asks if lidocaine was used. White says Dr. Shafer's report was a little confusing. It suggested propofol and lidocaine can be mixed together, but that White as a physician has never done this and wouldn't normally do it. One of propofol's major side-effects is intense burning. When you're putting IV cannulars in small veins like Mr. Jackson, the burning would be very intense. Lidocaine would be useful to ease the burning so assumes that it could have been injected before. It couldn't be mixed with the propofol though as that would require 110mg, which the glass vial can't hold.
 
u dont give lidocaine once the iv is running. its just given at the first bolus stage
 
White says the mixing would result in virtually no lidocaine being present at 12:00 or abouts when Michael was dead, and that you wouldn't expect to have any at all in the blood at the time of autopsy. But there was 0.84ug (micrograms) of lidocaine at autopsy.

Flanagan says the lidocaine would have to have been given at the beginning of the infusion. White agrees, feels lidocaine was unnecessary and wouldn't be given. White says you could give lidocaine if the patient complained of intense pain. White says that normally to get a deeper sedation you would just inject more propofol and not lidocaine.
 
Sky News legal expert:

MMcParland Michael McParland



Note: Def case is now effectively that MJ was dead or unsavable by time CM found him. Any failures in standard of care after didn't kill MJ.

25 seconds ago​
 
if lidocaine was just given at 9am per shaffer theory (an IV was started at 9am) then there shouldnt be any in the system at 12. yet there was an amount found at autopsy. as lidocaine is only given when starting off sedation.
 
Here we go again re standard of care. There is no excuse for ANY of the breaches in standard of care by dr murray. Dr White is ruining his own reputation and credibility to suggest otherwise.
 
Flanagan states that the model takes into consideration a +/- 50% variation and that it can take the model all the way down to 0.15.

Flanagan states a lot of time has been spent talking about standard of care. Flanagan says there's a different between standard of care and the standard of practice. White agrees. Says that standard of care is just guidelines and not strictly followed, usually the practice isn't up to standard of care. Sometimes the guidelines are not practical, or not based on evidence. Flanagan asks for an example. White talks about the monitoring equipment - particularly capnography, used to measure internal CO2. When you're using a catheter device to measure CO2 at the nose or in the mouth, it's not always reliable, especially if the patient snores or is a mouth breather. You might not always detect appropriate CO2 levels.
 
standard of care now and the difference in that and standard of practice. trying to be little them! saying its nice to have certain things but that isnt the reality of what really happens alot of the time. we like to have it but in many situations certain things arent used.

hope he wasnt that slap dash with his old paitents! be nice to have a monitor but hey it doesnt always happen
 
White says that capnography is something doctors like to have but in many situations isn't present outside of many venues outside of an operating room. Goes onto another example, prosecution objects. Sustained.

Flanagan brings up the 100ml infusion diagram from Dr. Shafer. That White says it doesn't match up with Murray's statement, the evidence at the scene, or the autopsy. Does White now indicate a near 0 lidocaine level at or near noon? White agrees.

Flanagan refers to mild sedation, moderate sedation, and standards and brings up an exhibition showed yesterday. Talks about anxiolysis with White and drugs used to relieve anxiety like benzodiazepines and other sleep medications.
 
flanagan asks white if he adds to his list the lidocaine levels in support of there not being a Iv drip ontop of all the other things he said on friday. he says yes
 
Talking about anxiety pills now and using them for sleep.
 
Discussion about Ambien. Somebody used to taking it has a much higher tolerance. A first time user might sleep for 12 hours.
 
Flan is trying to justify Murray leaving the room to make phone calls because he was apparently only on "minimal sedation". My note: bollocks!
 
if u give 25mg could u wake them up by verbal stimulation? yes they should be at a very low level maybe not even sleepy at all. if the paitent is tired they could be in a restful state. talks about cooper saying shes not sure someone would go to sleep on a 25mg white agrees with her. (flanagan gets the wrong answer) its minimal sedation then? yes. the airway should be ok should be no effect on the cardio. how was mj in light sedation were he would wake up to ppl talking when murray was on the phone. he was on the phone upto 10.52 am for the previous 22 mins. murray says he gave the dip around 10.40 (when he was on the phone)
 
In minimal sedation we should expect no effect on the cardiovascular system, or the airway, according to Flanagan. White agrees.
 
White feels that lorazepam in particular but also the lidocaine were responsible for Michael's death.
 
Prosecution objected due to speculation by White on the topic. Sustained. He didn't do the modelling.

Flanagan concludes redirect.

Walgren does not re-cross examine Dr. White.
 
last questions coming back up ask if the model done for the loraz would look resonable to him. he says yes

redirect over no re cross as i presume walgren will bring all this up with shaffer in rebuttal
 
Hope that helped y'all, just trying to pick up the slack while y'all were busy eating and stuff. I have to go within an hour or so though.
 
Here is something else I don't understand. If Michael was dead already by the time 911 was called, then shouldn't the EMTs have been allowed to pronounce his death at the scene? And according to testimony, didn't Murry tell the paramedics that Michael still had a pulse? And didn't he also insist that they take Michael to the hospital? If so, The question still remains, why didn't he want them to follow protocol and pronounce Michael dead at the house even if it meant the police would come over there if Michael was dead and Murray did nothing wrong? If all of this is correct, why isn't anything being said about it? This is all just my opinion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top