Monster - The Great Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Status
Not open for further replies.
samhabib;3150694 said:
Flawed?

That's Taryll Jackson calling the Cascio songs fake, calling Teddy Riley a liar and claiming that Frank/Eddie hurt and betrayed Michael Jackson. I'd say that's 'naming names'.

Sony/Teddy/Frank/Eddie should sue Taryll Jackson, in that case.

did you read all that I wrote and the part about the "damages" as well? Just a defamatory statement isn't enough, it also need to cause "damages" for a lawsuit. that's why I called it flawed. (you are picking one part of it and avoiding the rest of the necessary condition)

"Frank hurt and betrayed my Uncle years ago, so when I learned about Eddie I wasn’t completely shocked" - too vague to be defamation. what did they do, how did they betray Michael?

Calling Teddy a liar - now that's a defamatory statement

but don't forget the second condition of "damages". Even though the statements might be defamatory, are those statements also hurting the parties and causing damages that they can show in a court of law?

so for your argument you don't only need defamatory statements but you need to show damages as well.

In other words : Taryll can call Teddy a liar but if no one takes Taryll seriously and Teddy's reputation and/or work capacity/financial income is not affected by it, it wouldn't be grounds for a defamation/libel/slander lawsuit.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

A CHALLENGE AND A PROOF


Many expressed their respective opinions. Now we really need some facts.

Here is one of them: when I first listened to Phillinganes version of "Behind The Mask" I already tried to imagine Michael singing the song. I liked the song, but the voice was just plain and too much ordinary, despite phillinganes huge talent. Even Eric Clapton's version has the same effect - complete flatness. I could compare it to "flat water".

Out of experience as a MJ fan I knew that if MJ sang it his voice would bring some freshness on that song. Something like "sparkling water" or in other words his so recognizable husky voice at times. And as a matter of fact, you can clearly hear that Michael sings the song with that spark that we all fans know very well and what actually makes Michael's voice so special.

Now, we've all heard many imitators trying to reach high pitches and have the same voice timbre and sing as high as Michael. Indeed some imitate him quite well, we must admit it, since they can fool non fans and even some MJ fans. I am not necessarily talking about Jason Malachi's voice in some of his songs or in some parts of his songs, but also about artists such as Tom Fox in the song "Wayfaring Stranger". For quite a long time many MJ fans believed it was MJ singing "Neverland Landing" or another Michael's unreleased song.

However, even if some fans have been fooled by some artists reaching high notes and having almost the same voice timbre as Michael, to this day I have never heard any imitator being able to imitate Michael's husky voice or what I like to call Michael's "sparkling" voice.

Clearly Michael does not sing in every song with his "sparkling" voice, but when he does it, it is mostly on his fast songs.

When the supposed Michael sings Monster or BN, when you most expect to hear that spark in some pitches you don't hear it at all. It is flat. Completely flat! As flat as when Phillinganes or Clapton sing Behind the mask!

Furthermore, when you hear in some parts of the song Monster the supposed spark in the voice like when the singer says "...stalking me..." it sounds nothing else but an attempt to have Michael's spark. In reality, Michael's original spark is absent and what is more, it is not Michael's accent at all when you hear the singer say it.

Unfortunately we do not possess demos of Monster or Breaking news to prove it as a fact, nevertheless Teddy told us that the voice on those tracks sounds different because of heavy processing.

@ Teddy: Fair enough Teddy, and I want to believe you without a slightest doubt. But I need more than just your word.

Now, nothing prevents us to do the job the other way round. We all have plenty of Michael's demos, don't we?

Well, here is the deal: I am challenging anyone among fans to pick any Michael's demo and heavily process it in order to obtain exactly the same voice timbre and accents and huskiness and sparks as in the Cascio tracks Monster or Breaking News.

If Teddy claims he did it with bad quality demos, he can also do it with good quality demos and obtain the same results in terms of "different voice sound". I think that way Teddy could prove Tarryll was wrong and in the same time relief some fans who are having hard time to recognize their idol on the Cascio tracks.

So fans, here we are, let's process and try to obtain the same results.


I just listened to Monster again. I totally agree with you how Michael's spark is absent. Can over processing stripe away Michael's emotion? I don't feel his emotion at all. It's supposed to be an angry and aggressive song; however, the vocals are almost too calm.

Anyone taking the challenge?
 
ivy;3150717 said:
did you read all that I wrote and the part about the "damages" as well? Just a defamatory statement isn't enough, it also need to cause "damages" for a lawsuit. that's why I called it flawed. (you are picking one part of it and avoiding the rest of the necessary condition)

"Frank hurt and betrayed my Uncle years ago, so when I learned about Eddie I wasn’t completely shocked" - too vague to be defamation. what did they do, how did they betray Michael?

Calling Teddy a liar - now that's a defamatory statement

but don't forget the second condition of "damages". Even though the statements might be defamatory, are those statements also hurting the parties and causing damages that they can show in a court of law?

so for your argument you don't only need defamatory statements but you need to show damages as well.

In other words : Taryll can call Teddy a liar but if no one takes Taryll seriously and Teddy's reputation and/or work capacity/financial income is not affected by it, it wouldn't be grounds for a defamation/libel/slander lawsuit.

He refers to the songs as fakes. People will not buy records if they believe the vocalist is 'fake'. I'd contest that financial income IS DEFINITELY affected by it. I didn't buy the album on the basis that 3 of the songs, in my opinion, sound absolutely nothing like Michael Jackson and everything like Jason Malachi. So that's financial income that Sony have lost.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

He refers to the songs as fakes. People will not buy records if they believe the vocalist is 'fake'. I'd contest that financial income IS DEFINITELY affected by it. I didn't buy the album on the basis that 3 of the songs, in my opinion, sound absolutely nothing like Michael Jackson and everything like Jason Malachi. So that's financial income that Sony have lost.

again we have the case of the difference between opinion and proof in a court of law. so you say that sony could argue that "if these fake talks didn't happen the album would have sold more" true but the opposite side can argue that "the album didn't sell more because it wasn't good enough or people weren't interested in Michael". we are talking of hypothetical scenarios here with no way to prove it one way or another.

plus like I said even if the financial income is affected tying it back to Taryll will be hard to impossible as he never advocated a boycott, never said to not buy the album and actually said that he support 7 of the songs 100%.

and remembering the older discussions on these topic aren't the people against the songs said that they not against them because of what the Jackson's said but because of what their ears, hearts and feelings tell them? so unless you can show up a good number of people that says "I didn't buy the album just because of Taryll's statements", I don't see how you can tie the damages to him.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I just listened to Monster again. I totally agree with you how Michael's spark is absent. Can over processing stripe away Michael's emotion? I don't feel his emotion at all. It's supposed to be an angry and aggressive song; however, the vocals are almost too calm.

Anyone taking the challenge?

:)))) Thanks love is magical, but I think that nobody is willing to do it, because you don't change someone's voice timbre even with high tech or any kind of heavy processing as many have claimed up to now. All of sudden everyone has turned mute regarding melodyne or any other devices, softwares or programmes.

Teddy Riley should do it so that way he could prove everyone that he was right.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I know that I don't know. It might be Michael singing or it might NOT be Michael singing. Sometimes I think it's Michael, although...it might NOT be Michael. I sometimes have suspicions that it is NOT Michael singing there, which would be horrible to even imagine. OR it IS Michael singing, which would be teeerrific. What's even more interesting, is that I SOMETIMES believe 100% it is Michael singing. At times like these I will kill anyone who is an unbeliever (kill the heretic!). The album is divine and saint and I'm sure it's 100 percent Michael, and how DARE you ruining my day saying it's not! You bastards! Anyway, I'm not sure if it's Michael, BUT...
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Someone would need a Melodyne program for said experiment. The ones offered on the web cost cash, and the trial software for the one I attempted to download comes in a RAR. file. It's almost like it has to be assembled, something I have no clue about.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Someone would need a Melodyne program for said experiment. The ones offered on the web cost cash, and the trial software for the one I attempted to download comes in a RAR. file. It's almost like it has to be assembled, something I have no clue about.

I think winzip can open rar file.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Someone would need a Melodyne program for said experiment. The ones offered on the web cost cash, and the trial software for the one I attempted to download comes in a RAR. file. It's almost like it has to be assembled, something I have no clue about.

Is this Melodyne program really expensive? It can't be cheap lol
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

achick12.gif
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

We need a good -MJ fan - DJ to do it as close as possible to what Teddy did. But I think is doomed to failure anyway. How do you cange someone's voice timbre and accent to beyond recognizable?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Oh, I have no problem opening and extracting from the rar file. It's just that many of the files in the program are compressed in different types of formats, the kind I have no experience with.

oic... sounds complicated. it must not be easy for people who don't already have such music processing programs in their computers.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Is this Melodyne program really expensive? It can't be cheap lol

You can download it completely free for a 30 day full trial at their website http://www.celemony.com/cms/
Everyone who thinks that pitch correction will change anyone's voice to the point that it sounds like another person, please do download it and see it if does. Will gladly to listen to your voice samples for proof.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

You can download it completely free for a 30 day full trial at their website http://www.celemony.com/cms/
Everyone who thinks that pitch correction will change anyone's voice to the point that it sounds like another person, please do download it and see it if does. Will gladly to listen to your voice samples for proof.

I'd love to be able to use it, but I have no idea how...Hopefully, someone who's a little more tech-savvy can figure it out..lol
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Oh, I have no problem opening and extracting from the rar file. It's just that many of the files in the program are compressed in different types of formats, the kind I have no experience with.

Are you sure you downloaded the correct file? Because I got a .zip file (not rar) and when you extract it there's a setup.exe, that's obviously the one to install with?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Are you sure you downloaded the correct file? Because I got a .zip file (not rar) and when you extract it there's a setup.exe, that's obviously the one to install with?

Idk , I downloaded Melodyne Editor, and it came in a rar. file. I just went back, thanks to the link you posted and downloaded Melodyne studio and it went straight to the setup.exe. May have been the wrong one.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

The issue I have with the melodyne argument is that there are multiple videos on Youtube of the effect being used quite extensively and it does not alter the artist's voice that much.

Second, the extensive compressions/processing/melodyne/etc. would have to have been used on all five tracks we've heard thus far from these sessions.

Out of the three released tracks, full-length leak of All I Need and the snippet of Carry On, it sounds like the same vocalist on all the tracks to me, but none of them sound like Michael Jackson.

On this particular track, Monster, the track is clearly sung all the way through. Was it an entirely different song when it was allegedly sung by Michael Jackson? Was he singing out of tune, out of key, all the way through and it required vast amounts of work? I don't know, the argument makes perfect sense for one track, but not five.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

The issue I have with the melodyne argument is that there are multiple videos on Youtube of the effect being used quite extensively and it does not alter the artist's voice that much.

the "chipmunk" effect is also done by similar softwares. I think how much the voice changes depends on how much modification/effect is done.

btw anyone seen this?

Stranger in Moscow edited in Melodyne- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJb9SxNUTRo It shows how you can even change the key of the song and the "how does it feel" parts after 1:08 shows how much you can change even distort the vocals.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Yea, a lot of things can be done with melodyne, it's also much more of a complicated program than a Anatares, or similar programs of that nature. Just familiarizing myself with the option's and I saw that you can even change the characteristics of one's voice. Pretty neat stuff.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Can someone alter MJ's raw vocals in such a way that they sound like those on Monster.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I disagree with you. Michael's ability as a vocalist has nothing to do with his age. I think his voice sounds the best in Invincible. Michael never has problem with fast song. Listen to Shout again. Who else can sing with such speed and accuracy?

I respect your opinion, but MJ vocals on Off the Wall, Triumph, Thriller, Jacksons when he was a teenager, is much better on dance tracks than when he was older.

Young Mike could sing fast, still sound clear and smooth when singing fast. Older MJ when he had to sing fast, it was like he was grunting, screaming, hard to understand what he was saying.

Im not even talking about popular tracks. Listen to the underated dance songs such as "get on the floor"..."Burn this Disco Out"..."PYT"...."Working Day and Night"....."Your Ways"

"lovely one".."everybody"....."walk right now"

Honestly there is a huge difference in vocal ability from young MJ to older Mike on dance tracks. Huge....When did older MJ sing fast, yet with range? All the faster songs when he was older, he is grunting and screaming. Where is the vocal range? Slower and Mid-Tempo tracks older Mike was still great.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

^^ what exactly do you mean by 'grunting and screaming'..? :scratch:
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

Maybe in reference to the way he sings songs like Blood On The Dance Floor, Morphine, This Time Around, Smooth Criminal, etc. Not really a grunt, but his angry voice.
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I respect your opinion, but MJ vocals on Off the Wall, Triumph, Thriller, Jacksons when he was a teenager, is much better on dance tracks than when he was older.

Young Mike could sing fast, still sound clear and smooth when singing fast. Older MJ when he had to sing fast, it was like he was grunting, screaming, hard to understand what he was saying.

Im not even talking about popular tracks. Listen to the underated dance songs such as "get on the floor"..."Burn this Disco Out"..."PYT"...."Working Day and Night"....."Your Ways"

"lovely one".."everybody"....."walk right now"

Honestly there is a huge difference in vocal ability from young MJ to older Mike on dance tracks. Huge....When did older MJ sing fast, yet with range? All the faster songs when he was older, he is grunting and screaming. Where is the vocal range? Slower and Mid-Tempo tracks older Mike was still great.

I respect your opinion as well. I agree with you that Off The Wall and Thriller are pure joy. The way he sang Get on the Floor, WDAN, PYT are carefree, fun and happy. He was only in his early 20's then. It was pre-Thriller, before the horrible accident, before the media scrutiny, before the accusations.

By the mid-1990's, he was much mature. He went through many turmoils. I guess it's hard to expect him to sing dance tracks the way he sang them when he was younger. Songs like Scream, TDCAU, This Time Around, BOTDF, Morphine are angry and aggressive; hence, the shouting and grunting.

He didn't make joyous, up-tempo dance tracks after Dangerous. As an artist, he expressed his feelings through his songs. Music was his outlets. How could he sing in a carefree and joyous way when he no longer felt carefree?
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

^^ what exactly do you mean by 'grunting and screaming'..? :scratch:

For example the songs "Invincible" and "heartbreaker" unless your in denial and don't want to admit it. Comparing those vocals to MJ on the older tracks, and you think 2001 sounds better, than i don't know what to say.

Younger MJ on dance tracks is popular to the entire world. Not just the fan base. Die hard fans will love and support anything you put out. You can drop "Lost Children" to radio stations and die hard fans will vote for the top nine at nine countdown. Does that mean that song is hot? Nope
 
Re: Monster - The Great Debate

I respect your opinion as well. I agree with you that Off The Wall and Thriller are pure joy. The way he sang Get on the Floor, WDAN, PYT are carefree, fun and happy. He was only in his early 20's then. It was pre-Thriller, before the horrible accident, before the media scrutiny, before the accusations.

By the mid-1990's, he was much mature. He went through many turmoils. I guess it's hard to expect him to sing dance tracks the way he sang them when he was younger. Songs like Scream, TDCAU, This Time Around, BOTDF, Morphine are angry and aggressive; hence, the shouting and grunting.

He didn't make joyous, up-tempo dance tracks after Dangerous. As an artist, he expressed his feelings through his songs. Music was his outlets. How could he sing in a carefree and joyous way when he no longer felt carefree?

The angry style is popular to the fan base, but not popular to the average music fan simply turning on the radio, or at a club just wanting to dance. They would much rather here some "Dont Stop To You Get Enough", " Working Day and Night", "PYT", Tracks from the triumph album.

Grunting and singing angry is cool, but when a artist actually sings. Dance or slow, you feel it more. Hitting those notes with range. You feel it, and that makes the song CATCHY

For example the song "Invincible" to me the vocal arrangement is horrible. Im a die hard fan who can admit MJ was wrong. Im not the type of fan to say he does everything right all the time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top