MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro - Settlement reached

[Erikmjfan]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Great news, hopes this sends a message to future joksters!

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Michael wanted his mother to have the money, I hate John McClain, and John Branca. Katherine is the mother of Michael NOT neither John is, I'm so ANGRY, God please help.

Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come...

 

[shelly_webster]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

She is over reacting against something which is just an application of the law. His kids and his Estate have the rights to use his name not her and the rest of the family. MJ never wanted her to have the money, or at least it'not in the trust document.

 

[bluetopez]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

One would have thought that Vaccaro would had got it through his thick head yrs ago that he was never suppose to have MJ things in the first place. He was only suppose to take the things that belong to the other Jacksons after they failed to pay him. But, then he had a dumb plan to make Mann his bussiness partner and then he brings Katherine in on it. Like her being MJs mamma would change the law or something!? These people think to funny!

I doubt the Estate would ever pay them anything to get MJ things back so they should just give it all back already. Unless they plan to continue to just stare at MJ stuff for more yrs to come without being able to sell them? lol Obviously they know that MJ is the star and where the money is. Cause not many would buy the other Jacksons stuff as much as Michaels.

 

[justnat]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

^^
I think they CAN sell the staff. They cannot use is commercially but can cell it, for example, at auction. Whoever buys it will not be able to use it commercially as well. Vaccaro owns physical property but not the intellectual.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

At least some good news.... GREAT!

 

[MsMo]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

:yes: LOL! :clapping: :imbad

 

[TheChosenOne]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Read everything and still hung up on Katherine declaring that she needs the money she was getting from Vaccaro/Mann!

Needs the money for it? My goodness ... I had look at the last set of accounting submitted to the court. Her every financial need is being met and still she is not satisfied. I am beyond words.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

I am sure her needs are being met. It is everyone else

 

[bluetopez]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

^^
I think they CAN sell the staff. They cannot use is commercially but can cell it, for example, at auction. Whoever buys it will not be able to use it commercially as well. Vaccaro owns physical property but not the intellectual.

I understand he can do this with Michaels Siblings things but, actual MJ things? From what I know he wasn't suppose to have MJ things from the start? MJ tried to sue him yrs ago for that very reason but, the lawsuit was dropped because according to Vaccaro MJ didn't pay his lawyers? Not, sure how true that info is? During this time MJ was having issues with his finances and with many crooks stealing from him so that could be the real reason, to many things at once?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

He is an idiot! The only one taking assets away from kids is Katherine and Mann himself. Shame on Katherine for entering in business with this crook!

If this is what he has, he didn't bring anything new on the table, he goes with internet conspiracy theorists have been saying all along, hand-writing variances, spelling of kids names and location of signing.

You mean all this fool has is the statement made by Janet's group and he wants to go to court with that! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa It amazes me how nonsense gets into court and real issues have to be postponed for months and years.

Good news from today for the estate!!! It just amazes me that all the points we made and the arguments the estate made, the judge agreed with and outlined them in his ruling, yet Mann's lawyers did not know this? Now this ruling should send a clear message to Mann's Jackson collaborators.

 

[Bubs]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Read everything and still hung up on Katherine declaring that she needs the money she was getting from Vaccaro/Mann!

Needs the money for it? My goodness ... I had look at the last set of accounting submitted to the court. Her every financial need is being met and still she is not satisfied. I am beyond words.

Firstly, I cannot believe Joe and Katherine signed declaration that Michael "very likely" has work for hire relationship with Joe!
How insulting!

Secondly, I cannot believe how much money one can sink to that family and it is never enough!
You give them a million, they come back and say,we want 2 millions!

Thirdly, parents are supposed to look after their kids best, but not these parents!
They would sell Michael for any amount of moneyuke:





"In 2004, certain defendants created a "pay per view" website using domain names such as MichaelJacksonFamilyCircus.com....."

In a recent light, I think they should renew that website to JacksonFamilyCircus.com.:no:

 

[Garden]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Read everything and still hung up on Katherine declaring that she needs the money she was getting from Vaccaro/Mann!

Needs the money for it? My goodness ... I had look at the last set of accounting submitted to the court. Her every financial need is being met and still she is not satisfied. I am beyond words.

I remember having read about, she and Joe, I think I remember, were sued, a time ago, don't remember how long ago, for some failed/false business contract somewhere with people in an Azian country (if I'm right), and had a large amount of money to pay... or am I mixing everything up lol? (I'm sure Ivy and others here know more about it.) I guess it still plays big role in need for money? Or is it that Estate already helped Katherine pay these debts a lot? Goh, I read much but it is difficult to remember everything .

 

[LastTear]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Michael wanted his mother to have the money, I hate John McClain, and John Branca. Katherine is the mother of Michael NOT neither John is, I'm so ANGRY, God please help.

Katherine receives far more money from the estate than she ever would from Howard Mann.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Michael wanted his mother to have the money,

funny thats not what the will says. michael wanted his children and charities to get all the money and his mother to get a monthly allowance until she died . ................yeah we know the wills fake!.

anyway great news.thanks for the updates guys whats the betting they will use the kids in gary like last year and make them wave a few books around

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

I remember having read about, she and Joe, I think I remember, were sued, a time ago, don't remember how long ago, for some failed/false business contract somewhere with people in an Azian country (if I'm right), and had a large amount of money to pay... or am I mixing everything up lol? (I'm sure Ivy and others know more about it.) I guess it still plays big role in need for money? Or is it that Estate already helped Katherine pay these debts a lot? Goh, I read much but it is difficult to remember everything .

the moonies form south korea. the estate lent her 6 mill to pay off the lawsuit so thats gone now. and of course the estate/the kids will never get it back.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Michael wanted his mother to have the money, I hate John McClain, and John Branca. Katherine is the mother of Michael NOT neither John is, I'm so ANGRY, God please help.

So Michael wanted his children with a man who makes porn movie?

 

[Garden]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

the moonies form south korea. the estate lent her 6 mill to pay off the lawsuit so thats gone now. and of course the estate/the kids will never get it back.

They will never get it back. But I'm glad, if the whole (stupid) thing is payed off and gone now, that's good, another thing that can do no harm anymore. (Doesn't mean I'm so OK with people causing lawsuits and Estate (MJ3) paying for it.)

 

[loveforever]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

According to the court second accounting document, katherine received almost half million dollars her own allowance + more than 2 millions dollars from kid allowance in just a year ( we know why Randy was panic when Katherine almost lost the guardianship). Not only that, the executors also gave Katherine 4 loans, one of them is 6 millions Katherine owed the korea company. Who knows where the rest of loans went:bugeyed. One thing for certain is no matter how much she received, it's never enough. Greed is truly endless. When Michael was alive, he paid Katherine a luxury life but that didn't stop Katherine hooking up with shady people on Michael's expense. Korea company is one good example.
Isn't it ironic. On one hand the Jacksons harassed and attacked the well respected industry veterans John Branca and John McClain Michael trusted. On the other hand, they hooked up with the crooks like Mann and vaccaro michael despised and sued. $$$$$$$$$

 

[Annita]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

In the trial the damages for the estate will be established.
But Mann and Vacarro are deeply in debt. So they can not pay to the estate. Is this not a possibility for the Estate to get back the memorbilia-collection?


http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/indu...estate-s-copyrights-violated-1007803552.story

An upcoming trial will address damages, although the judge noted that Mann and the site probably will not be able to pay any amount because of debts.

 

[soulmum]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

In the trial the damages for the estate will be established.
But Mann and Vacarro are deeply in debt. So they can not pay to the estate. Is this not a possibility for the Estate to get back the memorbilia-collection?


http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/indu...estate-s-copyrights-violated-1007803552.story

An upcoming trial will address damages, although the judge noted that Mann and the site probably will not be able to pay any amount because of debts.

Good idea, payment in kind if they cannot pay in cash!!!!

 

[qbee]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Mod note- Thread cleaned
No personal attacks or insults. Please be respectful in your replies to one another.

 

[ivy]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

I understand he can do this with Michaels Siblings things but, actual MJ things? From what I know he wasn't suppose to have MJ things from the start? MJ tried to sue him yrs ago for that very reason but, the lawsuit was dropped because according to Vaccaro MJ didn't pay his lawyers? Not, sure how true that info is? During this time MJ was having issues with his finances and with many crooks stealing from him so that could be the real reason, to many things at once?

The ownership issue was never determined actually and it's kinda confusing too. The items were in a storage facility which wasn't i Michael's name and it included personal items from multiple members of the Jacksons. For example the storage facility also had all the childhood items of 3T which they tried to get back but couldn't. At that time there was also a plan to open a "Jackson Street" restaurant chain - similar to Hard Rock Cafe- and they argued that some of the Michael's items were given to Joe for that restaurant - therefore Michael didn't have any ownership anymore. So it's anyone's guess who actually owns the stuff. What Estate said was right, Michael's lawyers went to bankruptcy court and got the judge determine that the Michael wasn't a part of bankruptcy and his rights wasn't affected. I think they thought they achieved the same outcome as we are seeing now - that they established MJ's IP rights and made his items not usable.

As for the 2004 lawsuit, Michael sued them in 2004 but then asked for a delay due to the 2005 criminal trial. After the 2005 trial Michael had left for Bahrain and did not sit down for his deposition. His lawyers also said that they weren't in contact with Michael. So the judge dismissed the case for failure to prosecute. And as the current judge said it gave Vaccaro immunity from the things he did in 2004, because basically the ruling meant Michael cannot file the same lawsuit with the same claims. This lawsuit is different because it's all about what Mann and Vaccaro did after June 2009.

Firstly, I cannot believe Joe and Katherine signed declaration that Michael "very likely" has work for hire relationship with Joe!
How insulting!

Joe and Katherine didn't say that. It was Ed Pease old lawyer of Vaccaro. He said that it was very likely that Michael was working for Joe's production company during Jacksons variety show and Michael was a work for hire and therefore Joe was the owner of the assets and copyrights. However they had nothing to back it up, not a contract.So it did not fly of course because it was nothing more than a speculation.

Joe & Katherine signed affidavits - which I posted previously - that said they were the owners of the assets, Vaccaro acquired them legally and they gave permission to Vaccaro / Mann to use / release/ exploit them. It was again a tactic to show it like Joe & Katherine owned the assets not Michael and now it all transferred to Vaccaro. However they also couldn't back this up. Because the bankruptcy asset listing did not mention any intellectual property of Michael and Joe and Katherine could not show how they came to the ownership of the items.

In other words I can sign a document saying " I own Neverland" or I can say that "It's very likely that Michael left me Neverland" but unless I can prove it with documents, contracts, deeds it doesn't mean anything. This is what happened here. Mann / Vaccaro tried their best to show these as Joe and Katherine's assets, they failed.

 

[ivy]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

update from NY Daily News

Mann vowed to fight on and said he doesn't believe the judge's ruling applies to the hardcopy tribute book that he published with Katherine's blessing.

"It's obviously very disappointing, but we intend to go back with some additional information. We still feel we have marketing rights related to the book," Mann told the Daily News.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...on-shot-court-article-1.1134041#ixzz23FgQVyAf

 

[prismsagainst5live]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

so I guess it will be the book the kids will be asked to hawk at the bday fiasco.

 

[justnat]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

update from NY Daily News

Mann vowed to fight on and said he doesn't believe the judge's ruling applies to the hardcopy tribute book that he published with Katherine's blessing.

"It's obviously very disappointing, but we intend to go back with some additional information. We still feel we have marketing rights related to the book," Mann told the Daily News.

Ivy, I actually have a question regarding this one. My understanding is that anybody can publish a book without authorization. I also understand that the main issue was not the publishing of the book per se but the usage of the copyrighted material (e.g. Michael's drawings) in this book without Estate's permission. And here we get into the grey territory of the ownership of Michael's art, Thome's letter, etc. etc. Am I right?

 

[ivy]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

Ivy, I actually have a question regarding this one. My understanding is that anybody can publish a book without authorization. I also understand that the main issue was not the publishing of the book per se but the usage of the copyrighted material (e.g. Michael's drawings) in this book without Estate's permission. And here we get into the grey territory of the ownership of Michael's art, Thome's letter, etc. etc. Am I right?

Yes everyone can write a book. You can write a book, I can write a book, Katherine can write book as how Joe Vogel, Frank Cascio, Jermaine, Latoya, JRT etc did in the past and in current day.

But yes there's the copyright issue here. In the original complaint Estate alleged copyright infringement about 5 drawings of Michael and didn't ask for a summary judgement about it so it'll be determined during trial.

similarly perhaps the photos used in the book could be problematic. Estate did not make a claim about them in the lawsuit and who knows if those are owned by Joe, Photographer, Michael or someone else.

Even though it's determined that Estate owns the drawings and some or all pictures, Mann can re-release the book by doing some editing and removing the copyrighted pictures. Similarly he can still do a documentary - like Gest did- which consists of interviews with Jacksons and not using the items from the storage. Sadly this might not be the end of Mann's involvement with Katherine and MJ's kids.

 

[justnat]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

similarly perhaps the photos used in the book could be problematic. Estate did not make a claim about them in the lawsuit and who knows if those are owned by Joe, Photographer, Michael or someone else.

I remember once researching the issue about photograph copyright. It my memory serves me well, photograph copyright normally belongs to the photographer.
Of course, it might be not that simple (for example, a photographer was hired and transferred to copyright), but I do understand why the Estate to not want to go into that issue.

I actually believe (pure speculation) that by placing Michael's drawings in this book, Mann was deliberately testing the Estate. If Estate did not object to the motion "we have a permission from the artist who current has the art", it would open possibilities to sell the art. As far as I remember, the issue of copyright (and probably also the issue of at least partial ownership) is also currently playing in Thome lawsuit.

 

[ivy]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

I remember once researching the issue about photograph copyright. It my memory serves me well, photograph copyright normally belongs to the photographer.
Of course, it might be not that simple (for example, a photographer was hired and transferred to copyright), but I do understand why the Estate to not want to go into that issue.

I actually believe (pure speculation) that by placing Michael's drawings in this book, Mann was deliberately testing the Estate. If Estate did not object to the motion "we have a permission from the artist who current has the art", it would open possibilities to sell the art. As far as I remember, the issue of copyright (and probably also the issue of at least partial ownership) is also currently playing in Thome lawsuit.

Photographers own the copyright unless they are "work for hire" and transfer the rights to the person that hired them.

I think the reason they left the drawings to the trial is that it's not clear cut.

 

[marebear]

Re: MJ Estate Sues Howard Mann and business partner Henry Vaccaro

It's still a win for the estate to me. If Michael wanted his mother to have his money or his estate he would not have put in his will that when she passes away her % goes back to his kids. His children will have 80% of his estate and the rest to chairty. He just wanted his mother to be taken care of and live comfortably like he always made sure she did. If the rest of the Jacksons didn't bother her for money and such she would see she gets enough money. More than a lot of people her age and younger don't come close to getting. She isn't just taking care of herself but how many Jacksons? That's the problem and the amount never looks enough.