Michael - The Great Album Debate

You even go in the face of the actual facts, because Teddy Riley has publicly stated that the weird sounding vibrato is an artifact of Melodyning, not something that was edited in on purpose.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing Teddy Riley said about that was as part of a 144-characters tweet, fired off in the middle of a back-and-forth flame war against a bunch of angry fans. That was his emotional reaction to something he had just read, not a complete explanation of what he did or how he did it. He may not even have understood what the guy on twitter was criticising exactly about the vibrato; he may have gotten the name of the software wrong; he may use the name "Melodyne" for all similar software; he may have been thinking about another song; etc.

And that's not even the problem with doubters using this tweet as some sort of gospel. You're basically saying he lied about the songs, and therefore knew the songs were fake, Aside from the huge problem of why he would take part in such a hare-brained scheme, and risk his whole career and reputation on it, and then keep quiet about it for no apparent reason, etc., the main problem is that doubters are ready to believe this man would be clever enough to get away with this hoax until now, but NOT clever enough to either not say anything on Twitter about the software he used, or make up some more believable explanation.

Let me ask this question clear and simple to all the doubters : are you saying Teddy Riley KNEW he was working on fake vocals?
 
No one has ever said that no software in the world can produce such a vibrato. However, Teddy told us that the weird vibrato came about as an artifact of the pitch correction he did with Melodyne. As several people have explained, there is no way that pitch correction would lead to such an artifact.

I've worked with Melodyne for many years - I can back up that statement.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing Teddy Riley said about that was as part of a 144-characters tweet, fired off in the middle of a back-and-forth flame war against a bunch of angry fans. That was his emotional reaction to something he had just read, not a complete explanation of what he did or how he did it. He may not even have understood what the guy on twitter was criticising exactly about the vibrato; he may have gotten the name of the software wrong; he may use the name "Melodyne" for all similar software; he may have been thinking about another song; etc.

Again, assumptions assumptions. And you are mistaken. Teddy did not say this during a heated Twitter exchange, he told this to Reuters. Here's the exact quote (you can find the full article here):
"What we did was utilise the Melodyne (technology) to get him in key. With the Melodyne we actually move the stuff up which is the reason why some of the vibrato sounds a little off or processed, over-processed. We truly apologise for that happening, but you are still hearing the true Michael Jackson."

And that's not even the problem with doubters using this tweet as some sort of gospel.
Now you are saying that we are holding onto this one piece of information as the gospel. You are again acting as if doubters cling on to one tiny thing and base their opinions on that. The truth is that there are many reasons to doubt these vocals. Most of us, including many of those who believe the vocals to be authentic, believe that something is 'off' about these vocals. That in and of itself is already alarming. The fact that the vocal characteristics are strikingly similar to that of a well-known impersonator is as well. Of course, if there was evidence of Michael working on these tracks, all these doubts could be squashed. But that's the thing, we have not been shown any actual evidence that Michael is singing on these songs or was in any way involved with them. Well, then the people that were involved can at least clearly explain to us what happened, right? Wrong. We have heard explanations that simply cannot be true (such as Teddy's Melodyne and the Cascio studio being inferior stories) and/or are conflicting, and Eddie Cascio has refused to discuss the situation ever since the album release.

Honestly, unless you simply think that the voice on the Cascio tracks sounds like Michael the way he always did, I do not see how you can not have reasons to doubt these vocals. It requires a leap of faith to believe with 100% certainty that Michael is singing these songs. The idea that anyone who doubts these songs is some kind of conspiracy nut is ludicrious. The truth is that neither side has conclusive proof that can settle the debate once and for all. That is why this topic is still going after almost two years. All we can do is evalulate the little information we have and hope that the truth comes out at some point.
 
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Hmm, why Queen's posthumus album Made In Heaven didn't cause controversy? :scratch: I guess it really sounded like Freddie Mercury unlike Cascio songs... I mean fans know what they hear. How can you explain this controversy when so huge part of fans doesn't hear MJ singing them? I don't understand. Why Cascios sound so ''weird'', ''off'', ''non-MJ''. WHY? Due to some weird effects caused by equipment or MJ simply sounds weird for some reason?

Listening to Mercury demos, it's clear that he never gave real "demo" vocals in his songs, unlike MJ who always reserved his best vocals for the big recording session. I think it was the main reason that allowed Made in Heaven to be such a successful posthumous album. Plus Brian, Roger and John's dedication and - dare I say - perfectionism in performing with Freddie's voice for the final time on a new album was a big driving force. But one of the songs on the album is ENTIRELY fabricated.

The Made in Heaven version of Too Much Love Will Kill You:

The demo of Too Much Love Will Kill You from The Miracle sessions (1988-1989):


I assume the Queen fan I'm talking to knows of You Don't Fool Me off of the album? Personally, I really like it for the bass and the descending scales used in the piece. However, the song is made up entirely of Mercury vocal scraps from the 1991 sessions in Montreux, Switzerland in the months before his death. Freddie recorded basically off of scraps of paper that the band wrote for him and gave them three takes. One of the people working on the album took these scraps and made a skeleton track for this song, to which the band then added their instrumentation. It's a completely synthesised song and even contains digital backing vocals and effects on Freddie's voice. But it's unmistakably Freddie because of the richness in his voice. The digital manipulation of the voice didn't change that, nor did the fact that it's pieced together from other vocals.

Personally, I love Made in Heaven and there are no songs I don't like from it, unlike other Queen albums were there's normally at least two songs I don't care for. The three guys did an amazing job in handling this project with care and it shows through the end result. Brian and Roger stated that their intention was to create an album that sounded like four guys playing together, and that's exactly what it sounds like! Why couldn't Michael be an album that sounds like a great vocalist performing with all of his passion? Most of it does, even if there are demo vocals in most songs. But those three songs lack that quality, and digital manipulation is no excuse. As you can hear below, such "primitive" 1995 effects didn't change Freddie's voice like the Cascio tracks, so how could cutting edge 2010 vocal technology make "MJ's" voice unrecognisable to a lot of people?

 
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As soon as I saw the phrase "conspiracy theories" I ceased taking what you said seriously. /QUOTE]

Yeah, and that's the problem. You may not like the label "conspiracy theory", but your theory IS a conspiracy theory. It is based on the idea that a relatively large group of people CONSPIRED to record fake MJ tracks and sell them. And it is based on the idea that all of those unrelated people -- who only got together to pull off this scheme -- have since managed to keep quiet about it, without a single smoking gun of their hoax -- the bigest hoax in the history of recorded music -- leaking in any way to the public, or even to the main people involved, such as the Jackson family, the Estate and Sony.

I'm not saying you're a conspiracy theorist when it comes to OTHER things : I have no reason to believe you think the moon landing was staged or 9/11 was an inside job. But when it comes to the issue at hand -- the Cascio tracks -- what you're promoting here is 100 % a conspiracy theory. Now, the fact it involves a conspiracy doesn't mean in and of itself that it's a false theory : there are conspiracies in the real world. But let's call things by their name : what you're saying happened here is a conspiracy, and a textbook example at that!

For the record, no I don't believe in those other conspiracy theories that you mentioned. I think they are complete nonsense. I just don't like the label of "conspiracy theorist" as it tends to have negative connotations, especially as we end up being lumped together with the conspiracy crackpot brigade.

With regards to the lack of a smoking gun, I understand what your saying. And believe me, I've thought about just how absurd this scenario seems many times. I absolutely do not want this to have happened. If you showed me a video of Michael recording these songs then sure I'd be pretty humiliated and would have to admit I was wrong. But you know what? I wish you or someone could because I hate this situation. It doesn't matter whether the songs are the greatest musical masterpieces of all time or the worst garbage ever committed to a record. I just don't want to think that Michael was crapped on in this way, especially by one of the few genuine friends he had, and especially not with the music. I'd rather have genuine MJ songs that suck that fake ones that are great. Problem is, I can't deny what I hear. Remember, I've heard all these songs in demo form and seen material from the ProTools. As much as I hate it, to me, based on what I hear and all the other circumstances surrounding the songs, I am absolutely certain that Jason Cupeta is on those lead vocals. As far as the number of people involved goes, this is also part of the problem. There are only three people who we can be sure know the absolute truth. Eddie Cascio, James Porte and the vocalist. Cascio and Porte are clearly never going to talk either way. We obviously can't speak to Michael and if Jason is the vocalist he isn't going to admit it. So who else would know? Well presumably Jason's wife would have to know and surely the other immediate members of the Cascio family. With so much at stake, why would they admit it? Believe me we have been over and over this. Although it would be a hell of a lot easier, I can't lie to myself and pretend I hear Michael. I don't.
 
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Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing Teddy Riley said about that was as part of a 144-characters tweet, fired off in the middle of a back-and-forth flame war against a bunch of angry fans. That was his emotional reaction to something he had just read, not a complete explanation of what he did or how he did it. He may not even have understood what the guy on twitter was criticising exactly about the vibrato; he may have gotten the name of the software wrong; he may use the name "Melodyne" for all similar software; he may have been thinking about another song; etc.

And that's not even the problem with doubters using this tweet as some sort of gospel. You're basically saying he lied about the songs, and therefore knew the songs were fake, Aside from the huge problem of why he would take part in such a hare-brained scheme, and risk his whole career and reputation on it, and then keep quiet about it for no apparent reason, etc., the main problem is that doubters are ready to believe this man would be clever enough to get away with this hoax until now, but NOT clever enough to either not say anything on Twitter about the software he used, or make up some more believable explanation.

Let me ask this question clear and simple to all the doubters : are you saying Teddy Riley KNEW he was working on fake vocals?

Teddy Riley stated in the following interview about Melodyne.

[youtube]rA7HEdn1Z80[/youtube]

Problem with this is that we know it isn't accurate. Teddy Riley worked on three songs: Monster, Breaking News and Burn 2Nite. That's three out of twelve songs yet all twelve have the shaky vibrato on including the ones he worked on from BEFORE he touched them. I don't believe Teddy Riley knows the vocals are fake in the sense that he was involved. However, it has been stated that he expressed concern about them when he first received them, so much so that he passed up on Keep Your Head Up, and agreed with the same issues that we have raised during the listening session. He was over the moon when he received Hollywood Tonight because it was, in his words, "really him this time." The thing with Riley is that it seems he would have took the job regardless and despite his concerns regarding the Cascio tracks, he continued to work on them anyway in the hopes that things would sort themselves out. Plus we know he lied on Oprah when he stated that nobody can do a scream like Michael did on the Cascio tracks. Well that's because those screams are pasted on from previous records (done before he got them) and it is highly unlikely that he doesn't realise that.
 
What we did was utilise the Melodyne (technology) to get him in key. With the Melodyne we actually move the stuff up which is the reason why some of the vibrato sounds a little off or processed, over-processed. We truly apologise for that happening, but you are still hearing the true Michael Jackson

Thanks for looking up that quote. If we read it again, we see that what he's explaining is why the vibrato sounds "off" or "over-processed". But is that even the same thing as what we're talking about when we complain about how weird the vibrato is? I don't know about you guys, but what I find strange about the vibrato is how fast it is, and how "equal" the split-second parts of it are (I'm not sure I'm explaining it correctly -- it's hard to express). So what Teddy is defending himself against here might not even be the same feature of the vibrato as what we think is wrong with it. What he feels he must apologize for about the vibrato -- from his point of view as a producer -- might not be what we think is strange about it, from our point of view.

Also -- and this has been going on from day one -- it's always Teddy Riley whom we discuss as either having known about the songs being fake, or spreading lies and misinformation about the songs. But what about the third song, KYHU, and its producer, Tricky Steward? What role does HE play in the whole conspiracy? Did HE know the songs were fake? Does he know now? Why wouldn't he say anything?

One last thing : a LOT of people would have to be in on the secret now if the vocals really are fake. We're talking Porte and his significant others. Eddie Cascio and his whole family -- two generations of them. Jason and his wife. And all of the people around them who -- just like us -- might be suspecting something. And all of the people they might drunkenly boast to about having "fooled the world". And, I guess, Teddy Riley, and his people. Etc.

Guys, we live in a world where even confidential documents in the Vatican and in the US government are always leaked sooner or later : anybody can hit "send" on a computer and send the press the most private, damaging documents you can imagine. It is IMPOSSIBLE that such a hoax could have worked. In order for the parties involved to have even come up with it, they would have had to be back-stabbers and liars -- and now they would be models of silence and respect for their fellow conspirators? It makes no sense.
 
Teddy Riley stated in the following interview about Melodyne.

[youtube]rA7HEdn1Z80[/youtube]

Problem with this is that we know it isn't accurate. Teddy Riley worked on three songs: Monster, Breaking News and Burn 2Nite. That's three out of twelve songs yet all twelve have the shaky vibrato on including the ones he worked on from BEFORE he touched them. I don't believe Teddy Riley knows the vocals are fake in the sense that he was involved. However, it has been stated that he expressed concern about them when he first received them, so much so that he passed up on Keep Your Head Up, and agreed with the same issues that we have raised during the listening session. He was over the moon when he received Hollywood Tonight because it was, in his words, "really him this time." The thing with Riley is that it seems he would have took the job regardless and despite his concerns regarding the Cascio tracks, he continued to work on them anyway in the hopes that things would sort themselves out. Plus we know he lied on Oprah when he stated that nobody can do a scream like Michael did on the Cascio tracks. Well that's because those screams are pasted on from previous records (done before he got them) and it is highly unlikely that he doesn't realise that.

Isn't most of that stuff you attribute to Teddy Riley hearsay from MJ's nephew? As for the the "scream" thing on Oprah, that's just PR for a mainstream audience of soccer moms : he's not going to go into detail about record producing and authenticity issues on that sort of show. That would be the job of a music Web site or magazine.
 
Isn't most of that stuff you attribute to Teddy Riley hearsay from MJ's nephew? As for the the "scream" thing on Oprah, that's just PR for a mainstream audience of soccer moms : he's not going to go into detail about record producing and authenticity issues on that sort of show. That would be the job of a music Web site or magazine.

If your talking about Taryll, what you have to remember is that Taryll was there with Teddy when the songs were delivered. He was there throughout the whole process and protested time and again that the songs were not his uncle. As did others. He went into a lot of detail about what was said and I see no reason for him to lie. He certainly hasn't gained anything by speaking out.

As for Tricky Stewart, and Burt Bacharach for that matter (All I Need), they were given songs by the Estate/Sony to work on. They had no reason to believe they wouldn't be genuine. They don't listen to MJ day in and day out like we do. They'd probably never even heard of Jason Malachi, as most people outside of the die hard fan base hadn't. That's why there are still people to this day who hear songs like Let Me Let Go or Mamacita and are adamant they are Michael. They wouldn't instantly recognise that each adlib is pasted like we did. Stewart never even worked with Michael before. Other producers who have, such as Rodney Jerkins, didn't believe it's him.
 
If Taryll Jackson and Cory Rooney had some songs meant for Michael album,I think they had right to protest the potential rival.
But that's John McClain's primary issue,not theirs.
As for Darkchild and Will.I.Am and whoever previously worked with Michael,I think their view on Cascio tracks is that those are demos,not up to Michael Jackson the perfectionist's releasable standard.
Since fans cheered and enjoyed Don't Be Mess' 'Round very much,it seems not a problem for them to enjoy a demo as long as there is more transparency.
 
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StellaJackson;3665895 said:
If your talking about Taryll, what you have to remember is that Taryll was there with Teddy when the songs were delivered. He was there throughout the whole process and protested time and again that the songs were not his uncle. As did others. He went into a lot of detail about what was said and I see no reason for him to lie. He certainly hasn't gained anything by speaking out.

Come on now : there were a lot of past MJ collaborators who were consulted on whether the vocals were real, and most of them agreed they were the real deal; you're picking and choosing a few people's opinion over a lot of other people's. As for Taryll, he hates the Cascios, and has always had a problem with MJ spending more time with them than with his own family. The fact that he hasn't done anything legally to sue the Cascios shows he's all talk. Same with the other Jacksons : you can rest assured that if the songs were fake, they'd have already launched their own lawsuit.

In his Q&A with this very forum, didn't Taryll basically chicken out and refuse to say anything too controversial on the Cascios? It sounds like he got some official lawyer letter from the Cascios : « if you continue, we'll sue you for libel". And the fact he backed down shows he's got nothing.

As far as the other producers involved : they have people working around them, lawyers and people paid to protect their interests and their good name. You think that they haven't heard about the rumors of the songs being fake -- rumors that were all over the news for a few days? If there was anything to those rumors, something would have been done as a follow-up.

I don't think some of you realize how BIG this issue would be if the songs really were fake. It's not like a little practical joke a couple of guys on the Internet can pull off without anyone caring. This is the big leagues, involving millions of dollars, big-time lawyers, image-obsessed PR people, etc. The fact nothing was done is because there was no truth to the ugly rumors.
 
Since fans cheered and enjoyed Don't Be Mess' 'Round very much,it seems not a problem for them to enjoy a demo as long as there is more transparency.

I enjoy a demo when it doesn't sound like someone else is singing it.
 
The fact remains that the songs don't sound like Michael Jackson, maybe only about 8-10%.

A lot of really bizarre things are possible, you can't claim to know all the answers. It's possible Jason recorded demo vocals with Eddie and later Michael was supposed to sing over them. Maybe Michael sang a little over them, maybe Michael actually completed the songs and then was displeased so he ordered the recordings be destroyed, and he watched over Eddie's shoulder as he deleted all the vocal takes, pointing at the screen angrily, "DELETE! DELETE!" Eddie's frowning, thinking "at least I have the original Jason demos..."

Or maybe they were James Porte demos! Maybe it was just like Eddie farting a beat into a microphone and he titled the recording "Breaking News". Really, the only important matter is if it actually seems to be authentic Michael Jackson vocals. It really doesn't seem to be.
You do not know all that happened and neither do we. I just think there are a ton of reasons to be suspicious. My initial reaction to Breaking News was that it sounded like Let Me Let Go. I think I would have realized these rumors weren't true and left this thread about a couple years ago, instead of still feeling something is very wrong here.
 
You know, this wouldn't be such a BIG issue to most of us if the songs actually sounded like MJ. It wouldn't be such a big deal if it was maybe 1 song. But 12? With no proof? No transparency? With all the other un-MJ-like issues surrounding these songs?

Added all together and it IS a big deal. These aren't just songs that don't sound like MJ, or that sound like he was having an off day, or bad equipment, or whatever other numerous excuses used to explain this. No, this sounds like another person entirely. And it has since Breaking News was premiered. Sure, he sounds a bit like MJ. It sounds like someone is attempting to sound like MJ. There's someone trying to sound like MJ who briefly succeeds at times. And then there's Michael Jackson. These are two entirely different entities.

I could sit here and say, 'Officially these songs are Michael Jackson'. We can all say that. Because it's the 'official' word. But to my ears, and tons of other people's ears, it's definitely not Michael Jackson.

I just want an explanation as to why he sounds like an entirely different person altogether. But all we're getting is excuses as to why he sounds 'different'. No one, in the last 2 years, has actually answered the question, 'Why does he sound like a completely different person?'
 
If Taryll Jackson and Cory Rooney had some songs meant for Michael album,I think they had right to protest the potential rival.
But that's John McClain's primary issue,not theirs.
As for Darkchild and Will.I.Am and whoever previously worked with Michael,I think their view on Cascio tracks is that those are demos,not up to Michael Jackson the perfectionist's releasable standard.
Since fans cheered and enjoyed Don't Be Mess' 'Round very much,it seems not a problem for them to enjoy a demo as long as there is more transparency.

They did not have any songs intended for the album. That;s another myth created to try and make out out they had darker intentions than simply caring about their uncle's music.

And Rodney Jerkins stated publicly that the songs do not sound like Michael, so don't try and twist his words.
 
kreen;3666080 said:
Come on now : there were a lot of past MJ collaborators who were consulted on whether the vocals were real, and most of them agreed they were the real deal; you're picking and choosing a few people's opinion over a lot of other people's. As for Taryll, he hates the Cascios, and has always had a problem with MJ spending more time with them than with his own family. The fact that he hasn't done anything legally to sue the Cascios shows he's all talk. Same with the other Jacksons : you can rest assured that if the songs were fake, they'd have already launched their own lawsuit.

In his Q&A with this very forum, didn't Taryll basically chicken out and refuse to say anything too controversial on the Cascios? It sounds like he got some official lawyer letter from the Cascios : « if you continue, we'll sue you for libel". And the fact he backed down shows he's got nothing.

As far as the other producers involved : they have people working around them, lawyers and people paid to protect their interests and their good name. You think that they haven't heard about the rumors of the songs being fake -- rumors that were all over the news for a few days? If there was anything to those rumors, something would have been done as a follow-up.

I don't think some of you realize how BIG this issue would be if the songs really were fake. It's not like a little practical joke a couple of guys on the Internet can pull off without anyone caring. This is the big leagues, involving millions of dollars, big-time lawyers, image-obsessed PR people, etc. The fact nothing was done is because there was no truth to the ugly rumors.

Actually those collaborators didn't say that. Everyone in the meeting expressed the same concerns that we have with a few of them saying "it could be him". Even if they did say it is him. So what? That's just their opinion. No more valid than fans who listen to him every day for years.Remember there are only three living witnesses to the recording sessions. That's it. And nobody can talk about it after the fact as they all signed NDA's.

You said that Taryll hates the Cascios. Do you have any evidence of that outside of this situation? Otherwise that's just a theory.

Taryll never gave a q and a. That was Taj. He did not answer directly the questions relating to the Cascio songs for reasons that will become clear in the coming months. I can assure you it has nothing to do with potential libel.

You also state how big this thing would be if it was exposed. Well that's the problem. At the time of the albums release a decision, which in hindsight was the wrong was made and the songs were released. Sony/Estate stood by them. Even if they suddenly now found out that they were fake, they aren't going to start suing Cascio etc because it would be a public relations disaster and potentially ruin the deal between Sony and the Estate, costing both many millions of dollars. Unless definitive proof is made public, it is easier and safer for them to move on.

And as the others have said, none of this matters. What matters is that these songs clearly aren't Michael. The don't sound like him, they sound identical to Jason Cupeta. And nobody, be it producers or so called believers have been able to adequately explain that.
 
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To Stella Jackson regarding the vibrato :

The vibrato on the Cascio songs does sound weird : it sounds artificial, machine-enhanced. And it probably resembles the vibrato heard on thousands of other songs, from thousands of other singers.

The mistake you make is the classic mistake at the base of most conspiracy theories : the idea that the failure to explain everything perfectly negates all that is explained. And the idea that one should jump from the most minuscule of discoveries to the grandest of conclusions.

I don't know why the vibrato sounds the way it does. My guess is that it has something to do with shoddy post-production work on vocals that were not quite ready for primetime. Now, I know you say that no software in the world, and that no computer in the world can produce such a vibrato. I don't believe it for a second. This is 2012, in a world where computers can produce CGI that is undistinguisable from real life, and can basically do anything imaginable. The idea that there is no possible way, short of flying in a MJ impersonator, of ending up with what we hear on the record is absurd. If someone told you that no software or program could in any way be responsible for that, either they didn't know what they were talking about, or you framed the question in such a way as to hear what you wanted to hear.

Basically, your theory rests on the following thesis : nothing or no one in the world except MJ impersonator Jason Malachi could produce the short, artificial-sounding, mechanical vibrato we hear on the Cascio songs on the Michael record. And I'm sorry, but that vibrato is not extraordinary to the point where it can only come out of one person's mouth in the whole wide world. I'm thinking it came out of MJ's mouth -- mostly -- but was amateurly recorded and shoddily produced or post-produced. It was probably felt the actual vibrato on the original songs was too hit-and-miss to be released without studio magic.

Forget about vibrato. What about the voice, the colour of the voice? That is not Michael Jackson's voice. It's not just vibrato, it is the whole songs that sounds weird.
 
'Why does he sound like a completely different person?'

Ah, but he doesn't. If the Cascio singer didn't sound A LOT like MJ, there would be no hoax at all. The whole reason this hoax could be pulled off -- and the whole reason, according to your theory, that they hired Jason Malachi instead of doing the vocals themselves -- is because they HAD to get somebody who sounded amazingly close to MJ. In fact, the whole reason we even KNOW of Jason Malachi's name is because his voice sounds amazingly close to MJ's.

So you can't have it both way. Like I've said a 1000 times, if what you're saying is :

"The voice on the Cascio songs sure sounds similar to MJ's, and I can see why a lot of people would be fooled, but it's not quite identical"

then I have time for you, because that fits with the theory of a hoax : they got somebody amazingly similar in voice to MJ, but couldn't quite get perfection out of him.

But if you're saying :

"The singer on the Cascio songs doesn't sound anything like MJ and I don't see how anyone could think it is MJ"

then you're contradicting the very premise upon which the hoax theory is built.

By the way, it needs to be said -- again -- that we don't even have the slightest reason to think that Eddie Cascio has ever even MET Jason Malachi. We don't even know if Eddie Cascio even knows of the guy. So it's just amazing that his name is repeated by doubters as if it's a given that Malachi is singing those songs. And of course, the man himself denied having anything to do with those songs when a big-league lawyer from the Estate called him about it. And he still lives an unknown, 9-to-5 life with his wife in his previous house. So he apparently did this for no money, no credit and no glory. Hey, maybe I can get him to mow the lawn at my place for no paycheck : he seems to enjoy working for other people and get nothing in return.
 
Ah, but he doesn't. If the Cascio singer didn't sound A LOT like MJ, there would be no hoax at all. The whole reason this hoax could be pulled off -- and the whole reason, according to your theory, that they hired Jason Malachi instead of doing the vocals themselves -- is because they HAD to get somebody who sounded amazingly close to MJ. In fact, the whole reason we even KNOW of Jason Malachi's name is because his voice sounds amazingly close to MJ's.

Jason sounds close to Cascio singer not Michael. Then how come so much people easily identify Cascio singer as JM? I have to admit the vibrato and lack of deepness is the same as JM. I've seen those youtube video compares. BTW Marcus J Williams sounds way closer to MJ than Jason. Jason's not THAT amazing.
 
Ah, but he doesn't. If the Cascio singer didn't sound A LOT like MJ, there would be no hoax at all. The whole reason this hoax could be pulled off -- and the whole reason, according to your theory, that they hired Jason Malachi instead of doing the vocals themselves -- is because they HAD to get somebody who sounded amazingly close to MJ. In fact, the whole reason we even KNOW of Jason Malachi's name is because his voice sounds amazingly close to MJ's.

So you can't have it both way. Like I've said a 1000 times, if what you're saying is :

"The voice on the Cascio songs sure sounds similar to MJ's, and I can see why a lot of people would be fooled, but it's not quite identical"

then I have time for you, because that fits with the theory of a hoax : they got somebody amazingly similar in voice to MJ, but couldn't quite get perfection out of him.

But if you're saying :

"The singer on the Cascio songs doesn't sound anything like MJ and I don't see how anyone could think it is MJ"

then you're contradicting the very premise upon which the hoax theory is built.

By the way, it needs to be said -- again -- that we don't even have the slightest reason to think that Eddie Cascio has ever even MET Jason Malachi. We don't even know if Eddie Cascio even knows of the guy. So it's just amazing that his name is repeated by doubters as if it's a given that Malachi is singing those songs. And of course, the man himself denied having anything to do with those songs when a big-league lawyer from the Estate called him about it. And he still lives an unknown, 9-to-5 life with his wife in his previous house. So he apparently did this for no money, no credit and no glory. Hey, maybe I can get him to mow the lawn at my place for no paycheck : he seems to enjoy working for other people and get nothing in return.


I know you've gone on and on and on about this whole 'hoax' thing...I'll say it again...I don't care WHO it is...It doesn't have to be Jason....I had vaguely heard of Jason Malachi before all of this and I wasn't familiar with his voice at all... When I first heard BN, it sounded like a different person. I was never like, 'oh, it sounds a little off'...No, I was like, 'This sounds like someone else entirely'...No preconceived notions, no 'Maybe it's Jason', no planted Jackson tweets in my head convincing me it was someone else....No, it was just my own ears....If I never heard the comparisons, it still wouldn't change my mind either way...In other words, the comparisons, or the Jacksons, or the kids, or anyone else for that matter did not alter what I was hearing...NONE OF THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I'M HEARING...To suggest that this idea was planted in our heads by others is just as insulting as me saying to a believer 'You must be deaf, you're not a real fan, you don't know his voice...'...

It just sounds a hell of a lot more like Jason than MJ....This is what I hear...A DIFFERENT PERSON...Just please get off this whole Jason Malachi thing....It is actually completely irrelevant....

I said he sounds similar to MJ....However, the similarity is on the surface...There are no deep similarities...No vocal tics/habits that are consistent with MJ's voice that we've been hearing for the last several decades...

It it a different person to me. Period. Which is why I don't understand why people think it is MJ. It's not an insult. I'm not trying to rile people up to act like a tough guy. I don't understand why people think it's Michael. That's why we ask, over and over again, those who think it's Michael, please explain why. But no one is able to do that.

That's all.
 
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You also state how big this thing would be if it was exposed. Well that's the problem. At the time of the albums release a decision, which in hindsight was the wrong was made and the songs were released. Sony/Estate stood by them. Even if they suddenly now found out that they were fake, they aren't going to start suing Cascio etc because it would be a public relations disaster and potentially ruin the deal between Sony and the Estate, costing both many millions of dollars. Unless definitive proof is made public, it is easier and safer for them to move on.

Again, you can't have it both ways. Let's say the Estate and Sony made an innocent mistake at first and included the fake songs without knowing they were fake.

Ok, so the question is : NOW, do they know they've been had? If they do know now, why would they choose to include an excerpt from Monster on a SECOND official product (the Immortal show/CD), knowing that this will only bring more money to crooks who made fools out of them?

If you're saying that they STILL think the songs are authentic, then obviously we can trust their opinion on this, because they -- unlike ourselves -- have access to all of the evidence/lack thereof we can think of, and they have huge financial/legal skin in the game. So whatever convinced them the songs are legit -- we can accept that also.

So which is it : do they know the songs are fake, or don't they?
 
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It it a different person to me. Period. Which is why I don't understand why people think it is MJ. It's not an insult. I'm not trying to rile people up to act like a tough guy. I don't understand why people think it's Michael. That's why we ask, over and over again, those who think it's Michael, please explain why. But no one is able to do that.

People think the Cascio singer sounds like MJ because either he is MJ, or he is an impersonator, and the thing with impersonators -- their whole claim to fame -- is that they sound similar to the people they are impersonating. And the whole reason you even know of Jason Malachi is not because he scored a hit on the Billboard 200, or because he was formerly on the Michey Mouse Club TV show, or anything like that : you know of him and you've heard his voice BECAUSE he sounds amazingly close to MJ. If Malachi sucked at impersonating MJ -- like, say, I do -- then you wouldn't know of him, and you couldn't think he's the one on the album playing the part of MJ.
 
They did not have any songs intended for the album. That;s another myth created to try and make out out they had darker intentions than simply caring about their uncle's music.

Actually it's not a myth. Cory Rooney posted it on his facebook on 13-11-2010 - after the album announcement & breaking news stream but before the track list was finalized

My thoughts are to wait and see what song ultimately make the cut. I did write a song called "She was loving me" and I find it funny that the title was released. The only reason it was never finished was because I spent more of my time making sure the relationship with Rodney jerkins and MJ worked out because I felt at the time he was the best producer to give MJ a hit. I also gave him a record by Robin Thick and Walter A called "fall again" He did complete his vocals on my song as well as did the final comp himself, I just never finalized the track enough to make the cut. I had been approached by sony a few months back about the song and was asked to finish and submit it and at that point I reached out to Taryll who I have been collaborating with on other up and coming projects to help me rebuild the track. Taryll is an amazing producer and writer and I felt it would be a great opportunity for him to work for his uncle. Before Michael's passing, Taryll had written a song for MJ and they were going back and forth with ideas, preparing to record the song for his next project. I've read Bullshit about Taryll being jealous that he never worked with his uncle, HE WAS A KID!!!! who spent most of his life with his uncle while developing his own kraft. Finally once he's ready as a producer such a tragedy strikes! Or the stupid bastard that made the statement about him being jealous, I want you to know that Michael loved him and his brothers very very much!! And would have done anything for them so stop trying to put shit in the game!!!!! The song has been reworked by taryll and myself and it's amazing!! I just never mentioned it because I don't ever want people to think I am trying to promote myself or my music, my work speaks for itself:0) and last but not least, if I feel that there is still funny business going on, I wouldn't want my record to be a part of it. I wrote that record 13 years ago and sony had no knowledge that it even existed until I let them know so maybe there are other producers holding on to some other priceless gems:0)

Original thread - http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...l-amp-TJ)-are-against-the-Cascio-track/page12


so there you have Cory Rooney's own words that he says he and Taryll had finished "She was loving me" and it was submitted to Sony and it was being considered for the album and he's going between "let's see if it makes the cut" to " I don't want to be a part of the album if other songs are included".
 
People think the Cascio singer sounds like MJ because either he is MJ, or he is an impersonator, and the thing with impersonators -- their whole claim to fame -- is that they sound similar to the people they are impersonating. And the whole reason you even know of Jason Malachi is not because he scored a hit on the Billboard 200, or because he was formerly on the Michey Mouse Club TV show, or anything like that : you know of him and you've heard his voice BECAUSE he sounds amazingly close to MJ. If Malachi sucked at impersonating MJ -- like, say, I do -- then you wouldn't know of him, and you couldn't think he's the one on the album playing the part of MJ.
As Arklove said, the Cascio singer/Jason Malachi sounds similar to MJ on the surface. Yeah, I can imagine that someone who is not really interested in MJ's music and who hears a Malachi song on YouTube might be fooled to think that it is Michael. But things are different when you are very familiar with someone's voice, like us fans are with Michael's. And just like with any imitator, when you look past the superficial similarities and when you become familiar with the imitator's own voice, then you can clearly hear the differences.

I personally do not find Jason Malachi a very good MJ imitator. The different accent, the shaky vibrato, the different pronunciation, the complete lack of power and emotion in his vocals and just the sound of his voice in general... Never when listening to him have I thought 'if I close my eyes, it almost really sounds like MJ'. I am actually bewildered by the fact that he manages to fool several fans to this day (I am not even just talking about the Cascio tracks, a quick look at YouTube will tell you that some fans still believe official Jason Malachi songs are MJ's).

As far as the Cascio tracks go, I think it is telling that even many believers feel that the vocals sound 'off'. Clearly, most people do hear that the voice on those tracks does not sound like MJ as we know him. In that sense, that goes to show that Malachi, if it is indeed him as I strongly believe, is not an amazing imitator. However, helped by several things (which I think are all very important when it comes to explaining why people still believe these tracks to be MJ) such as the copy/pasted adlibs from MJ's previous songs, the tracks being featured on an official release and the fact that most people want these songs to be real, I guess he is good enough to fool many.
 
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Ah, but he doesn't. If the Cascio singer didn't sound A LOT like MJ, there would be no hoax at all. The whole reason this hoax could be pulled off -- and the whole reason, according to your theory, that they hired Jason Malachi instead of doing the vocals themselves -- is because they HAD to get somebody who sounded amazingly close to MJ. In fact, the whole reason we even KNOW of Jason Malachi's name is because his voice sounds amazingly close to MJ's.

Maybe to you it sounds "amazingly close" but his voice sounds nothing like MJ's. He is trying to be good impersonator like that Brazilian taxi driver and others and they are doing great job - being an impersonator. But the difference is huge. All those guys are impersonators, not singers, they don't know how to sing! Jason's manager said that Jason is "tone deaf". And MJ is one of the best vocalist in the world with one of the most unique voices in music history.
 
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People think the Cascio singer sounds like MJ because either he is MJ, or he is an impersonator, and the thing with impersonators -- their whole claim to fame -- is that they sound similar to the people they are impersonating. And the whole reason you even know of Jason Malachi is not because he scored a hit on the Billboard 200, or because he was formerly on the Michey Mouse Club TV show, or anything like that : you know of him and you've heard his voice BECAUSE he sounds amazingly close to MJ. If Malachi sucked at impersonating MJ -- like, say, I do -- then you wouldn't know of him, and you couldn't think he's the one on the album playing the part of MJ.

Nah, I don't think he sounds amazingly close to MJ. I just told you he sounds A BIT like him. Don't put words in my mouth or exaggerate what I say to fit your little theory. Stop avoiding the real issue here.

Your assumptions are getting tiring and it's clear you're not reading a word anyone is actually saying.
 
My friend and I both knew, independently of one another, that Breaking News was not Michael. And that is without knowing anything about the controversy before the fact. I'd heard Jason before, but not for a long time, and recognised him straight away. My friend had never heard Jason but still knew it wasn't Michael. I think the problem is that believers can't look past the fact that they are on an official release, choosing to ignore all the issues with the songs because it's easier. Suggesting that we've been brainwashed is no different from me saying that ignorance is bliss if we're going down that route.
 
And not only that but the guy that recorded Jason's voice for years (I can't recall his name at the moment) says it's Jason.
 
And not only that but the guy that recorded Jason's voice for years (I can't recall his name at the moment) says it's Jason.

Tony Kurtis. He reached out to the family and to Michael's fans. He had a lot of interesting things to say.
 
One of the best summaries so far, courtesy of Charles Thomson:

When Breaking News first dropped and the fans were hysterical, posting all over the internet that the vocals were fake, I couldn’t bring myself to believe it. Not because of any particular loyalty to the Estate and certainly not because of any particular loyalty to Sony. Put simply, I couldn’t get my head around the fact that such an enormous fraud was possible.

Why would either party take such an enormous risk? If it came out, it’d be the biggest humiliation in Sony’s history. The financial ramifications would be extraordinary. Every fan with a copy would demand a refund. Tens or hundreds of thousands of CDs would have to be recalled. What would be the point?

Everybody knew that Michael Jackson left a wealth of unreleased material behind when he died. Why take such a gamble on releasing fake songs with so many real ones in the vault?

But something niggled. The vocals didn’t sound right. The odd exclamation or hiccup sounded convincing, but for the most point the vocal was off kilter. The falsetto wasn’t the one we were used to. Michael’s pronunciation was off. The vibrato didn’t sound like his. But the song was badly produced enough that it was really difficult to tell either way and there were enough tiny snippets of legitimate Jackson vocals pasted in from other songs that I continued to tell myself: ‘They can’t have released fake tracks. It’s just too insane.’

Nonetheless, the fans’ anger showed no signs of calming. Especially not when the other two tracks hit the public domain. Breaking News might just have passed for a Michael Jackson track if people weren’t paying close attention, but Monster and Keep Your Head Up sounded nothing like him. The phrasing, the pitch, the falsetto, the vibrato, the accent – it was all wrong. It just didn’t sound like Michael Jackson.

On top of all that, the songs were appalling. Would Michael Jackson really lend himself to a song as feeble as Monster? Would he really demean himself in such a way? Would he really waste his talent on nonsensical lyrics like, ‘Mama say mama got you in a zig-zag’? It was a hard pill to swallow. Still, though, I kept saying to myself: ‘How would they get away with such a fraud? And why bother?’

Nonetheless, it wasn’t just fans who questioned the vocals. Several members of Jackson’s family, including his children, were firm in their belief that the songs were fraudulent. So were others close to the star.

Jennifer Batten, who toured with Jackson for 10 years, hearing him rehearse and perform live on a daily basis for months at a time, said the tracks didn’t sound like him.

Rodney Jerkins, who recorded Jackson’s final album, said the vocals didn’t sound like him. Cory Rooney, who also worked on that album, said the tracks didn’t sound like him.

Chucky Klapow, present at Jackson’s final live vocal rehearsals, said the vocals didn’t sound like Jackson. Karen Faye, also present at Jackson’s final live vocal rehearsals, publicly stated that the vocals didn’t sound like Jackson.

The first strong doubt hit me when J Randy Taraborrelli was invited to interview the Estate for TV and print. The interview was organised in response to the vocal controversy – but it raised more questions than it answered.

The Estate told JRT that after the Michael album, it had 17 more unreleased tracks which were good enough for release. Just 17. Everybody Jackson ever worked with attests to the fact that he over-recorded, producing dozens of songs per album. Where all that music has disappeared to is a mystery – perhaps they just can’t find them, perhaps they were stolen, perhaps there are tonnes but they aren’t good enough for release.

The salient information, though, is that in that interview, the Estate said it had just 17. That, presumably, included the remaining nine Cascio tracks.

Far from combating the vocal scandal, the interview gave credence to the conspiracy theory. The biggest counter-question to the fake vocal claims was, ‘What would be the point of putting out fake tracks?’ The logical answer now seemed apparent: because there’s a shortfall of real ones.

By now, voice comparison clips were cropping up all over YouTube, comparing the vocals on the Cascio tracks to Michael Jackson’s vocals and then to Jason Malachi’s. The accent, the falsetto, the vibrato – to the naked ear they all differed from Jackson’s enormously, but appeared to match Malachi’s exactly.

Those clips were yanked down usually within an hour of being uploaded, while hundreds of thousands of other Michael Jackson videos, also uploaded without copyright consent, remained online. Somebody seemed intent on suppressing them.

Before long, Jason Malachi’s long-time producer Tony Kurtis came forward to expose what he felt was a terrible injustice.

“This record is not Michael,” he wrote online. “If I knew how to get in contact with his family, I would, ’cause this is really wrong… It is Jason, based on me working with him, training him and knowing his voice… The songs are fake.

“This recording is not [Michael]… Michael’s kids are right: that’s not daddy’s voice, as they said… I can pick Jason voice out of 50 voices playing at the same time… I [produced] the Jason Malachi records, which is why I know the vocals are him.

“I recorded [with Jason] for 10 years off and on. We could never get him as tight as Michael, ’cause Michael can really sing. Jason is tone deaf… MJ vibrato isn’t as fast as Jason’s, plus Jason over uses his. Michael can really sing; he don’t use it as much… A two-year-old can hear that this is the same person.”

As the pressure on the Estate mounted, lots of claims began to leak out. The Estate, by the way, is run by two men: John Branca and John McClain. One half of the Estate – John McClain – was very clear in his stance on the Cascio tracks: He believed they were fake. Fans often throw their weight behind the Estate where this issue is concerned, apparently forgetting that the Estate itself is divided.

Nonetheless, the Estate began making assertions both directly and via gossip columnists. There were pictures and videos of Jackson in the studio recording the Cascio tracks, fans were told. There were handwritten lyrics. Besides, voice analysis comparisons had been carried out and proved the vocals were Jackson’s.

The controversy rumbled on and the album’s sales suffered badly. The collection didn’t chart spectacularly and fell from view with lightning speed. Such was the pitiful response that the Estate was forced to put out fluff-statements about how the album was the year’s ‘most shipped’. All that meant was that shops all over the world were lumbered with countless copies of an album which they couldn’t shift. Within just a few months of release, you could pick it up in any UK branch of HMV for the bargain bin price of £3.

The answer to the Estate’s album woes seemed clear to me. If the Estate had all this proof, it should just release it. But every time it was challenged to do so, it declined, offering up pitiful excuses such as that it didn’t want to drag innocent (and extortionately expensive) forensic audiologists into the limelight.

The Estate’s next move, rather than release any actual proof, was to release a statement containing the names of several industry players who had apparently attended a meeting and confirmed that the vocals were Jackson’s.

But within hours of the statement’s release, people from inside the meeting blasted the statement as a fabrication.

They included Cory Rooney, who worked on Jackson’s Invincible album and is highly-respected by much of the star’s fanbase thanks to a number of insightful interviews given after Jackson’s death.

Rooney said: “I have read the statement from the MJ Estate, and I have to say that it’s just more bullshit! I was in that room, and the majority of the people mentioned did not agree that it was MJ! Some felt it sounded like him, but all agree that there was nothing there that was consistent with any MJ habits like finger snaps, headphone bleeding, foot stomping or just simple things like his voice asking for another take.”

(The Cascios claim they deleted all Jackson’s outtake vocals to make space on a hard drive. Yes. Really.)

Rooney continued: “Both Dr. Freeze and Teddy Riley sat with Taryll Jackson and myself and stated that they felt what we felt. As for the specialists that were brought in, I don’t think anyone from the actual Jackson family got any direct confirmation that made them feel any different then what they have felt all along.”

Rooney’s comments were supported by an interview with Quincy Jones. The Estate statement claimed Jones had confirmed the vocals were Jacksons, but in an interview with Roger Friedman he repeatedly stated that he hadn’t been able to tell either way.

Pro-Estate/Cascio fans often point to the number of alleged participants in the meeting who have never come forward to deny that they endorsed the tracks, apparently failing to make the connection between the fact that all of these people work in the music industry and might have a very good reason not to want to piss off the world’s biggest record label.

My response to them is: What does Cory Rooney get out of challenging the statement? Money? No. Fame? No. The only tangible consequence would be that he would effectively burn any bridges he might have with Sony, which would be ultimately detrimental to his career. In short, Rooney has no reason to challenge the label, but the others have very good reasons not to.

Just before the album’s release, fans were informed that the Cascios would appear on Oprah and present proof that the songs were real. I tuned in. The Cascios chatted for a while. Then it was the end. The failed to present any proof of the songs’ veracity whatsoever.

It was at this point that I just accepted the so-called proof simply did not exist.

Excuses were still forthcoming. Teddy Riley claimed the vocals sounded odd because he had used melodyne on Jackson’s voice. Fans quickly rebuffed this claim by posting their own clips of Jackson’s voice, melodyned into oblivion – lo’ and behold: it still sounded like Michael Jackson. Melodyne might explain a change in pitch, but not a change in accent or vibrato.

Former Jason Malachi producer echoed this sentiment. He wrote: “I am saying as a sound expert this recording is without a doubt Jason Cupeta. …They pitched the vocals to try and make [Jason] sound more like Michael. I have Michael Jackson a cappella vocals, as well. You can pitch MJ vocals all day; they won’t sound anything like [Breaking News].”

Similarly, the Cascios – by now having abandoned any premise that they would present ‘proof’ that the songs were real – began offering all manner of insane explanations as to why Jackson’s vocals sounded weird, from that he’d sung them through a cardboard tube to that he’d sung them in a shower.

Again, this may account for a change in the sound of Jackson’s voice, but not his accent or vibrato.

Moreover, the posthumous album included one Jackson track recorded just months before he died – Best Of Joy. In the track, his voice sounds the same as it ever did. Why would it suddenly change for the Cascio tracks, then suddenly revert back again for Best Of Joy? None of it made any sense.

Other collaborators – professional musicians – worked with Jackson for a year or more and produced two to four tracks. The Cascios claimed to have worked with Jackson for three months and recorded an entire album.

There were also chronological issues with the tracks. They claimed all 12 tracks were co-written with Jackson, but one – Soldier Boy – had already been written and registered a year before the alleged recording sessions.

With the evidence stacking up against the Cascio tracks, the Estate still failed to produce a single shred of evidence as to the tracks’ authenticity. To date, this remains the case.

Put yourself in Sony/the Estate’s shoes. Huge swathes of the fan community are boycotting the album. It doesn’t chart spectacularly and disappears from view pretty quickly. The main topic on every fansite (except the ones which censor it) is the veracity of the vocals on the Cascio tracks.

Newspapers and magazines and TV shows are questioning their authenticity. You, the Estate, have proof that they’re all wrong. You have voice analysis. You have pictures or videos or handwritten lyrics.

Why wouldn’t you release them?

It’s a no-brainer. If the album is suffering, and you have proof at your fingertips which can end it once and for all, you release it. It’s not even arguable. You would release the proof. All it can do is help you.

If the Estate had proof, we’d have seen it by now. It’s as simple as that.

The favourite get-out clause of the fans who support the Estate and the Cascio tracks – some of whom I believe to be paid by the Estate – is that until the doubters produce concrete proof that the tracks are fake, their claims are without basis.

The content of this tweet alone, which doesn’t even begin to scrape the surface, is more than enough proof that, at the very least, the claims are not without basis.

Besides, those fans miss the point.

When somebody steps forward with a collection of apparently unreleased Michael Jackson songs, conveniently copyrighted just two days after his death and recorded without the knowledge of anybody on Jackson’s payroll, the onus is not on anybody else to prove that the tracks are fake. It is on the vendors to prove that the tracks are real.

In the case of the Cascio tracks, nobody has ever been able to do so. Proof has been promised time and again, but it has never materialised.

If I were to announce tomorrow that I was the custodian of 12 tracks Michael Jackson had secretly recorded in my shower through a cardboard tube, the onus would be on me to prove that the tracks were real. Why were the Cascio tracks not placed under the same scrutiny?

There is no known evidence in existence which remotely connects Jackson to any of the 12 tracks the Cascios claim he co-wrote and recorded.

On the other hand, there are significant factors which undermine any claim of Jackson’s involvement: The fact that at least one song was written a year before the sessions, the fact that the vocals sound nothing like Jackson, the fact that all the outtake vocals were ‘deleted’, the fact that the promised photos and videos never materialised, the fact that Jackson’s apparent prolific work rate was completely at odds with other collaborators’ contemporaneous experiences… and so on.

I defy any right-thinking individual to take all of this information and claim that there isn’t reasonable doubt as to the tracks’ authenticity. And I question the motives of those who blindly promote the tracks in the face of all this evidence, and the wealth of other evidence which I didn’t include in this tweet.
 
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