Michael - The Great Album Debate

[Korgnex]

Corporate bodies never play transparency. Did they show us the original versions of "Behind The Mask" (finished), "Much Too Soon" (finished) and "Hollywood Tonight"? Has there been any transparency as to why and how much was changed? Nope. And why? Because they don't have to.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Corporate bodies never play transparency. Did they show us the original versions of "Behind The Mask" (finished), "Much Too Soon" (finished) and "Hollywood Tonight"? Has there been any transparency as to why and how much was changed? Nope. And why? Because they don't have to.

Who cares about the transparency of non-questioned authenticity songs?

Instead of issuing rather an extremely weak report "to reassure us", the Estate should have issued concrete doucments and names to prove their good faith. If on top of that some fans back the Estate and SONY,--just like in your argument hereabove-- saying that they don't need to do it, well it certainly won't help any case on the surface of this earth cuz they managed to divide us on the question and people fall for it by defending their right to non-transparency.

 

[Korgnex]

I don't understand why you think anyone is defending them. They are protected by the law and that's what of some of us have pointed out. I don't have an issue with that.

The other songs have also been questioned (eg they claimed to have "completed" them, yet they simply reworked them - except "Hollywood Tonight" which was truely incomplete).
While this is not an issue about the authenticity of the vocals, it is a matter about the authenticity of Michael's work - because they did not state they reworked "Much Too Soon" and "Behind The Mask" from scratch, replacing the original music. There are more legal issues about false advertizement since they also claimed to have followed a "guideline" that Michael left and in addition to that they claimed the songs to be Michael's most recent work.
Maybe you don't care about those issues but they would also qualify for consumer fraud case because their statements were untrue and misleading.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I don't understand why you think anyone is defending them. They are protected by the law and that's what of some of us have pointed out. I don't have an issue with that.

The other songs have also been questioned (eg they claimed to have "completed" them, yet they simply reworked them - except "Hollywood Tonight" which was truely incomplete).
While this is not an issue about the authenticity of the vocals, it is a matter about the authenticity of Michael's work - because they did not state they reworked "Much Too Soon" and "Behind The Mask" from scratch, replacing the original music. There are more legal issues about false advertizement since they also claimed to have followed a "guideline" that Michael left and in addition to that they claimed the songs to be Michael's most recent work.
Maybe you don't care about those issues but they would also qualify for consumer fraud case because their statements were untrue and misleading.

Because we could have been united and pressure them as a lobby group, but with such arguments as believers have held, it is clear that they can get away with it.

United we stand for MJ... my a**.

 

[ivy]

I know, right? 3 days after the Michael Jackson dies, they registers the songs. Shouldn't they be thinking about other things? Even I as a fan was crushed weeks after his death.

Didn't Porte register them? Perhaps he was not close to Michael.

If my understanding of the US legal system is right, it can be brought up against all of them, and based on the plaintiff's argument the judge will decide if the lawsuit has merit and which of the defendants will be dismissed.

right

That's not the point. The point is what I mentioned above: legal transaction by SONY + authenticity claimed by Estate + no witnesses in Eddy's basement. They made sure to cover their backs and that's it.

I'm confused about this. What happened to all the evidence and/or proof you had?

No matter against whom it would be filed, but it would be extremely weak. How can you prove that something has been destroyed when you don't know what exactly was destroyed or whether it is true that it had existed at all?

Legally SONY has nothing to fear. They bought and distributed the "authentic" tracks and that's it. Estate finds them legal and authentic. Eddie says "it is Michael". End of discussion. Unless you have hard evidence it would be foolish and stupid to file anything against anyone given the fact that everything was done strictly legally. This is a dead-end case and a dead-end discussion. I don't even know why do we always bring up this "sue them" argument. It's useless.

I disagree. Not the way lawsuit works in USA.

The first step will be to file the lawsuit and survive through the demurrer phase - dismissal due to no legal basis / merit. I think such lawsuit would survive this step as there have been people who publicly questioned the songs.

After this comes the discovery stage. In this stage you could ask for the "raw" demos, the expert reports and so on. If there were no expert reports - like you used to say - you would get them for deception / advertising issues.

summary judgment phase will be asking the judge to dismiss the case as the claims cannot be proven or could be proven to the contrary. If there's no evidence the lawsuit wouldn't survive this stage. If it does even partially it's trial time.

Now who will win such lawsuit will depend on the evidence and I agree with you in the sense that in a battle of expert reports versus audio comparisons, expert reports will win it. Also it would be costly.

So I half agree with you that is why we would never see a lawsuit in this issue and hence it's meaningless to discuss it but still I'm surprised by your "there's no evidence" posts lately. The argument has always been there's a lot of evidence (including even the timelines of the fraud) and this was pretty much proven.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Didn't Porte register them? Perhaps he was not close to Michael.

right

left

I'm confused about this. What happened to all the evidence and/or proof you had?



I disagree. Not the way lawsuit works in USA.

The first step will be to file the lawsuit and survive through the demurrer phase - dismissal due to no legal basis / merit. I think such lawsuit would survive this step as there have been people who publicly questioned the songs.

After this comes the discovery stage. In this stage you could ask for the "raw" demos, the expert reports and so on. If there were no expert reports - like you used to say - you would get them for deception / advertising issues.

summary judgment phase will be asking the judge to dismiss the case as the claims cannot be proven or could be proven to the contrary. If there's no evidence the lawsuit wouldn't survive this stage. If it does even partially it's trial time.

Now who will win such lawsuit will depend on the evidence and I agree with you in the sense that in a battle of expert reports versus audio comparisons, expert reports will win it. Also it would be costly.

So I half agree with you that is why we would never see a lawsuit in this issue and hence it's meaningless to discuss it but still I'm surprised by your "there's no evidence" posts lately. The argument has always been there's a lot of evidence (including even the timelines of the fraud) and this was pretty much proven.

Don't get confused, the way they have wrapped it i.e. no traces, no witnesses, the evidence becomes "my word against yours" with the advantage in the Cascio's camp who are holding back the names of the reported names and forensic's reports (if they exist at all). And this despite the amount of evidence that there is, but that hasn't been discussed here. Add to that the complete lack of unity amongst the fans and you'll obtain this ridiculous situation.

Personally I've never been in favor of a lawsuit, but rather in unity of fans from all over the world and act as a lobby with sometimes more promising results than a costly lawsuit.

 

[morinen]

The point would be not to win, or get money, the point is basically to get to the discovery phase and see the evidnce. And if it's really fishy, the defendants will likely offer to settle which could cover the cost. If all is clean - well yeah, it will cost some money, but less than it takes to go till the end. An estimation would be interesting.

Bumper, your talks about what other parties should do and about "unity of fans all over the world" sound idealistic. There hasn't been a single issue with the estate in the last 4 years that fans agreed on among each other, not to mention that the majority of fans doesn't care about such details at all. Calls for unity will fall on deaf ears. If you want something get done, find a couple of enthusiasts to help you and do it.

 

[ivy]

Add to that the complete lack of unity amongst the fans and you'll obtain this ridiculous situation.

unity among fans is not a necessity in this instance. It all requires one single person to file a lawsuit. It will then become between that person and Sony / Estate / Cascios. What the other fans think - support or not support- will be irrelevant to the lawsuit as lawsuits is not a popularity race.

The point would be not to win, or get money, the point is basically to get to the discovery phase and see the evidnce. And if it's really fishy, the defendants will likely offer to settle which could cover the cost. If all is clean - well yeah, it will cost some money, but less than it takes to go till the end. An estimation would be interesting.

exactly

Jacksons lawsuit against AEG is a wonderful example. They started with 5 claims based on what Karen Faye said (really a she said - they said start). Lost 2 claims at demurrer, went through a discovery phase that brought tens of thousands of emails and hundreds of depositions , they lost 2 more claims at summary judgment and went to trial with 1 claim remaining. Win or lose , the discovery phase resulted in discovery of the emails and depositions.

Like that a lawsuit could have been pursued in regards to these songs just for the discovery phase. Of course it would have some cost associated with it.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

The point would be not to win, or get money, the point is basically to get to the discovery phase and see the evidnce. And if it's really fishy, the defendants will likely offer to settle which could cover the cost. If all is clean - well yeah, it will cost some money, but less than it takes to go till the end. An estimation would be interesting.

Bumper, your talks about what other parties should do and about "unity of fans all over the world" sound idealistic. There hasn't been a single issue with the estate in the last 4 years that fans agreed on among each other, not to mention that the majority of fans doesn't care about such details at all. Calls for unity will fall on deaf ears. If you want something get done, find a couple of enthusiasts to help you and do it.

Thank you for telling me in return what to do.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit... get over it guys. Your faith in justice baffles me.

Here an example, enjoy it:

<header class="mtn mbl twelve columns">[h=1]Texas Says It's OK to Shoot an Escort If She Won't Have Sex With You[/h]</header>

Expand
A jury in Bexar County, Texas just acquitted Ezekiel Gilbert of charges that he murdered a 23-year-old Craigslist escort&#8212;agreeing that because he was attempting to retrieve the $150 he'd paid to Lenora Ivie Frago, who wouldn't have sex with him, his actions were justified.
Gilbert had admitted to shooting Frago in the neck on Christmas Eve 2009, when she accepted $150 from Gilbert and left his home without having sex with him. Frago, who was paralyzed by the shooting, died several months later.
Gilbert's defense argued that the shooting wasn't meant to kill, and that Gilbert's actions were justified, because he believed that sex was included as part of the fee. Texas law allows people "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft."
The 30-year-old hugged his defense attorneys after the "not guilty" verdict was read by the judge. If convicted, he could have faced life in prison. He thanked God, his lawyers, and the jury for being able to "see what wasn't the truth."


http://gawker.com/texas-says-its-ok-to-shoot-an-escort-if-she-wont-have-511636423

 

[Pentum]

Lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit... get over it guys. Your faith in justice baffles me.

Here an example, enjoy it:

<header class="mtn mbl twelve columns" sab="1503">Texas Says It's OK to Shoot an Escort If She Won't Have Sex With You

</header>

Expand
A jury in Bexar County, Texas just acquitted Ezekiel Gilbert of charges that he murdered a 23-year-old Craigslist escort—agreeing that because he was attempting to retrieve the $150 he'd paid to Lenora Ivie Frago, who wouldn't have sex with him, his actions were justified.
Gilbert had admitted to shooting Frago in the neck on Christmas Eve 2009, when she accepted $150 from Gilbert and left his home without having sex with him. Frago, who was paralyzed by the shooting, died several months later.
Gilbert's defense argued that the shooting wasn't meant to kill, and that Gilbert's actions were justified, because he believed that sex was included as part of the fee. Texas law allows people "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft."
The 30-year-old hugged his defense attorneys after the "not guilty" verdict was read by the judge. If convicted, he could have faced life in prison. He thanked God, his lawyers, and the jury for being able to "see what wasn't the truth."


http://gawker.com/texas-says-its-ok-to-shoot-an-escort-if-she-wont-have-511636423

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Well. It seems as if we are all in agreement. Action is the only solution. Its like they sweep it under the rug and we lift up the rug and find the dirt.

Can we get this done and over with?

 

[Korgnex]

Don't get confused, the way they have wrapped it i.e. no traces, no witnesses

It's hearsay from the Jacksons that "they destroyed everything". Jacksons and Cascios can't stand each other, so that's just a rumour.
HOW do you know for sure they left no traces, no witnesses?

Personally I've never been in favor of a lawsuit, but rather in unity of fans from all over the world and act as a lobby with sometimes more promising results than a costly lawsuit.

If the case is thrown out when they present their forensic tests, it wouldn't be costly.
And what should a lobby do? For a lobby you don't need every single fan on this planet and there are already a bunch of fans who claimed vehemently to expose them. Where are those promising results? When will they pop up?

And this despite the amount of evidence that there is, but that hasn't been discussed here.

Now you're talking about that (not really) "secret" potato site - even though you've denied several times that you don't care whether it would be Jason Malachi. I don't mind if some fans are playing Sherlock Holmes and collecting data about when that dude went on holidays, when he moved to another place, what he communicated etc. But have they found any evidence??? Or are they just making up their minds of what every single act that dude did should indicate? You know that this is a dead end. If there was really an amount of evidence, why is nothing happening? Because you just need to find the right time?
Do you realize that with each passing year the claim to have an amount of evidence becomes less and less credible?
We have been hearing this for two years now.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

It's hearsay from the Jacksons that "they destroyed everything". Jacksons and Cascios can't stand each other, so that's just a rumour.
HOW do you know for sure they left no traces, no witnesses?

We've been wai'in' on them for two and a half years now, where are they? Cascio never denied their claim that it was destroyed.

If the case is thrown out when they present their forensic tests, it wouldn't be costly.
And what should a lobby do? For a lobby you don't need every single fan on this planet and there are already a bunch of fans who claimed vehemently to expose them. Where are those promising results? When will they pop up?

For a lobby we need the maximum, not half the community.

Now you're talking about that (not really) "secret" potato site - even though you've denied several times that you don't care whether it would be Jason Malachi. You know that this is a dead end. If there was really an amount of evidence, why is nothing happening? Because you just need to find the right time?

What site are you talking about? I am not referring to any site at all. Not everything is on internet you know.

Do you realize that with each passing year the claim to have an amount of evidence becomes less and less credible?
We have been hearing this for two years now.

What is less and less credible? Claiming that those copy pasted bits of songs and put back together are less credible? What have believers shown us that was credible for MJ to sound like that? Having fun? Not being fit?

The voice is obviously not MJ's, but how can doubters prove when they have no access to any Cascio data?

And frankly speaking, today's justice in court does not depend on the truth or justice but on how skillfully your lawyer can present the case. Be sure that in any case those who got the money are those who can afford an army of such lawyers if necessary.

 

[Pentum]

Would've been nice if the whole MJJCommunity came together and sent a latter to the MJ Estate to address this issue. Demand proof. Just, something. I am sure they would not ignore the MJJC. It's time.

 

[ivy]

Would've been nice if the whole MJJCommunity came together and sent a latter to the MJ Estate to address this issue. Demand proof. Just, something. I am sure they would not ignore the MJJC. It's time.

they would ignore it.

when the album were first released and when Gaz asked them, they sent out the Estate statement. Just a few months later I asked for more transparency and the expert reports they said no. What they did was the statement. At that time there were multiple fansites declaring the songs were fake, they got ignored. That ship has long sailed.

 

[MJ*PP]

^but that been quite some time I suppose? Maybe they'll see how we REALLY care about MJ's legacy that after a few years we still want them to cough up something about t?

 

[Pentum]

^but that been quite some time I suppose? Maybe they'll see how we REALLY care about MJ's legacy that after a few years we still want them to cough up something about t?

Exactly. By sending again, it shows that we have not forgotten this and that they need to do something.

 

[Neverland_Valley]

they would ignore it.

when the album were first released and when Gaz asked them, they sent out the Estate statement. Just a few months later I asked for more transparency and the expert reports they said no. What they did was the statement. At that time there were multiple fansites declaring the songs were fake, they got ignored. That ship has long sailed.

Of course, they would ignore it. That's the only thing they can do, if they don't want to make up new excuses. It's obvious that don't have any interest in resuscitating this controversy. Probably it would be more effective to address this issue to the press.

 

[morinen]

I can tell you, they will not do anything. They know that it's being discussed on fan forums, they know that fans care, they have seen the Cascio songs leak and fans' reaction to them because they watch the fan community pretty closely. They will not voluntarily give you any transparency or proof unless the court obliges them to.

The press will also not be interested in some fan address or petition. On the other hand, if someone files a lawsuit, I'm sure they'll pick it up.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Lawsuit = Action. Action = more answers than before

even call them out on false advertising in the making of Michael where it looks like they are talking about Cascio tracks when really its MJ's backgrounds in WBSS2008

 

[ivy]

The anger, the masses etc. we had it 3 years ago and even then when expressed it only resulted in a statement. I agree with morinen, they are aware of the continuing unhappiness and it's not forgotten. it gets brought up at every new release. They are being told about it at fan events - immortal fan event to bad25 documentary event. At this point in time unless there's a legal requirement, this will be a topic they would not acknowledge. The same goes to the press, they picked it up 3 years ago based on Jackson tweets. Unless there's a significant new development, it's old news.

so realistically unless there's a new significant development or unless there's a lawsuit, this will be a topic that the fans discuss among themselves.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

^^ They deliberately show no interest in fans' concern and we are supposed to respect them? They have started off MJ's legacy on the wrong foot!

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

Then do something about it and let us stop whining in this thread.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Then do something about it and lets stop whining in this thread.

Watch your tone dude.

 

[Pentum]

^^ They deliberately show no interest in fans' concern and we are supposed to respect them? They have started off MJ's legacy on the wrong foot!

This. Don't come attacking me when I speak bad about the "MJ Estate".

 

[qbee]

Yes but they are trying to do better, You loved your BAD25 Collector case

I just don't see them going back to address the 3 Cascio songs release. Not anytime soon.
They can't .. We know all the reasons why they can't. maybe in the future when Estate
changes hands .. It will be easier to have it addressed .. then they can say "It wasnt Me"

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Yes but they are trying to do better, You loved your BAD25 Collector case

I just don't see them going back to address the 3 Cascio songs release. Not anytime soon.
They can't .. We know all the reasons why they can't. maybe in the future when Estate
changes hands .. It will be easier to have it addressed .. then they can say "It wasnt Me"

I loved BAD 25 case cuz it's MJ, regardless of who wrapped it. But I have always been saying that they won't be able to make me forget what they did when they released the Michael album. I said in order to gain our respect they should remove those songs from MJ's discography untill they prove their good faith by showing us those forensic reports and giving us names which wouldn't do any harm to anyone. On the contrary, it could do good to everyone. But for some reason they refuse.

 

[ivy]

^^ They deliberately show no interest in fans' concern and we are supposed to respect them? They have started off MJ's legacy on the wrong foot!

This. Don't come attacking me when I speak bad about the "MJ Estate".

not fair.

they showed an interest in fans concerns by releasing a statement. they did the same in regards to many projects - including Bad DVD. They said they have no intention to release any more songs due to the fan concerns. The 20 seconds was removed from Immortal after fans said no.

so they do acknowledge the concerns, they respond to the concerns and they do things the fans want (such as untouched demos etc).

It might not be what you exactly want or it might not be enough for you, but it's unfair to say they "deliberately" show "no interest in fan concerns".

Ask Stella for example. Ask what happened when he asked a question to Branca in person. If he "deliberately" had "no interest in fan concerns" , he would have walked away without saying a word ,but he didn't.

 

[AlwaysThere]

The estate needs to go a long way before they can regain trust in the fans after Michael. Bad 25 was a great step for me, as I think it's the best release since This Is It. But we still can't forget that their first attempt at giving us "Michael's final album" was an absolute catastrophe from the ground up. The estate does seem to be trying harder to please us so I for one am keeping an open mind.