Michael Jackson - Underrated and unrecognized as songwriter!

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

I was in this audio store today with my dad, he was picking up some vinyls (records) and he knows the people very well that work there, and they know his music taste. My dad is a real fan of singer/songwriters, you know...the more 'unknown' ones. But he can enjoy Michael Jackson's music just as much, and he decided he'd pick up This is it on vinyl, and for him it's only about the music so he gave me the big booklet , awesome.

Anyway, so he bought several records of singer/songwriters and also MJ's This is it. So the two shopkeepers are looking at the records my dad is buying and with every single record one of the dudes said 'Ah man, this is such a good one, real good choice' but when the last one came..which was This is it, the man said 'Hmm...well, you really can't make me happy with this' . He went on to say he'd never thought my dad would dig MJ's music and he personally found it all rather 'not really music'. Singer/songwriters are what is the real music, real heart..real lyrics and so on.

My dad then said he expected him to say that he never thought he'd buy an MJ record, and also said that he was giving the big booklet to me. And then i simply said...Michael Jackson, yeah...well he's personally my favorite artist ever, it's just that simple for me. The dude said ...you can't be serious, really?"

He didn't really say much else...other than actually calling 'MJ' fake, and not as a person but the music, everything.It's all just show he said, look at his concerts man, nah...a simple man with a guitar in his hands playing songs about life in general, that's the real music man.

And this is just a good example of well....ignorance i guess? I think thats the right word. He didn't say anything about allegations or whatever, and he said his death was very tragic. But this guy and i bet plenty of other people have NO IDEA what they are talking about. They probably only know the entertainer Michael Jackson, probably seen Dangerous in concert on DVD and probably...noticed lipsynching. And know a few videos on tv of him probably. But they obviously have never heard genius songs like Stranger in Moscow with incredible lyrics like "Here abandoned in my fame, armageddon of the brain" , if THAT ain't songwriting...oh my god, i don't know what is.

It's a simple fact if you ask me that Michael is very underrated and unrecognized as a songwriter. You never hear people talking about his lyrics , always about the incredible dance moves and shows and how good his music sounds. But never about the lyrics. But the dude has made songs like Little Susie, They don't care about us, Stranger in Moscow, only to name a few songs where the lyrics are awesome. I guess these people don't know that Michael can actually be considered a singer/songwriter as well, cause he DID write most of his songs himself and he sings them. Now that i think of it...for this guy to call him fake (even if its just about the shows..and in his opinion being less impressive than a dude with his guitar...sigh) is just ridiculous. Michael Jackson IS a genre himself, he can't be placed anywhere, in no genre...he's a genre himself.

I should have said to the guy 'Look with all due respect, but a man who's been making music,performing his ass off since his fifth, respected by (insert any real artist) and so on...and you compare that to singer/songwriters?' if anyone IS music, it's that man...Michael Jackson. "

 

[xo_lola_xo]

Amen to that final sentence! Yes, Michael is sheer music. It's his essence. And he is very very underrated as a songwriter. His lyrics, his worlds of art blow me away.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

Exactly, and sure Singer/songwriters can make nice music, but the simple fact remains that there are LOADS and loads of them, it's not unique anymore,it's not rare, it's not anything incredibly special anymore. But Michael IS all of those.

There's only one Michael Jackson, and there will never ever be one again. These people just don't know it...they just dont.

 

[AndreyZidane™]

I can totally agree with you here. Michael Jackson is himself a genre, there's no artist that can come anywhere close to what Michael Jackson was. He had the most amaizing and gifted voice on the planet, the most unique and talented dance moves, and he was a genius songwritter that wrote great and succesful songs not only for himself but for others too.

I can't think of any artist that can do all of those at the same time.

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot about the fact that he was an absolute genius when it came to shows and live performances.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

I can totally agree with you here. Michael Jackson is himself a genre, there's no artist that can come anywhere close to what Michael Jackson was. He had the most amaizing and gifted voice on the planet, the most unique and talented dance moves, and he was a genius songwritter that wrote great and succesful songs not only for himself but for others too.

I can't think of any artist that can do all of those at the same time.

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot about the fact that he was an absolute genius when it came to shows and live performances.

Exactlyyyyy, and wow....when it comes to discussing Michael, there's just no end to it, because i forgot to mention something else. That he not only wrote most of his songs, but he also co-produced alot on the songs, and sometimes he even made the beat himself. The man was such a multi-talent, it's crazy. Non-musically wise too...i mean, awhile ago there was a thread here that showed Michael's drawings and art, the stuff was awesome and clearly signs of another talent he possessed, as well as poetry. Reading Dancing the dream is enough to see that he had that talent as well. And the incredible thing about him was...that he never bragged about it and actually said it came from above, something up there, what other artist says this?

He was the most talented artist in years..well...probably ever if you want my opinion, and the good man stayed so incredibly humble and acted like it was the most common thing, like it was nothing special. He would have had all the right to brag and be arrogant, but he wasn't...it just wasn't him, definitely an incredible soul.

 

[The King lives on!]

IMO he was a singer-songwriter but the fact is that he's not recognised like that. He was brilliant in his lyrics and a musician at pure hart. He is definitely underrated as a writer. But his true fans know he was a multi-talent.

BTW, MJ could play guitar and piano, so that makes him a 100% songwriter!!

 

[analogue]

Alot of people think that if you want to compose a song you need to play an instrument and that's not true. Playing music and composing music don't always go hand in hand. Someone could be the greatest multi-instrumentalist in the world and still be a crap songwriter.

Also there should be no rules about how someone wants to compose their music. If someone wants to compose music by playing an instrument that's fine and if someone (like MJ) wants to compose a song by using their voice then that's also fine. There should be no rules about how someone wants to express his or her's musical creativity.

Oh and next time someone says that Michael is not a real composer kick their ass

 

[cmstrike]

Don't pay attention to what some elitist jerkoffs working at a record store think. People who feel entitled to decide what is "real music" and what isn't are really not worth dealing with.

 

[gerryevans]

Don't pay attention to what some elitist jerkoffs working at a record store think. People who feel entitled to decide what is "real music" and what isn't are really not worth dealing with.

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[HIStory]

The problem is that people don't know Michael was a songwriter. You can see sometimes even casual fans make ignorant statements such as he didn't write his own songs. I don't know why people are so ignorant about the fact he DID write most of his biggest hits and best songs! On each album the songs he wrote himself turn out to be the greatest hits from that album.

Now, people consider someone like Eric Clapton a "real musician" along the sentiment you cited, that he is a guy just standing on the stage and playing his guitar. But do they know he wrote relatively few of his songs?

I think the reason is, like in almost anything about Michael, that people are prejudiced. They just assume Michael didn't write his songs, simply because it is their prejudice that someone who puts on such a show with dance and choreography and stuff, usually is just an act that is built up by producers and other creative staff. They don't know that in Michael's case he is the creative force behind almost everything he did: from most of the songwriting to the dance choreography. Yes, Michael was that much of a multitalent and this is what they find hard to believe IMO.

While someone who is just standing on a stage with a guitar, man, that must be a real musician, that must be someone who wrote and created everything for himself. But this is just prejudice, nothing else! Watch the songwriting credits on a Michael Jackson album and on an Eric Clapton album and you will see who is more of a songwriter.... It has nothing to do with the kind of show they put on stage. Yet, when you ask someone like this guy in the shop, he would probably say Clapton wrote his own songs and is a real musician, while Michael didn't write his own songs and isn't a real musician. It's just prejudice and ignorance, nothing else.

Another problem is that mainstream media is just usually stuck with his greatest hits, Billie Jean, Beat it etc. and people don't even know most of his deeper lyrics.

Who is it, Stranger in Moscow, Is it scary, Will you be there, Little Susie, Money etc. etc. - these are lyrics of a genius!

 

[kasume]

Yes, Michael said himself that it's because he's black. He said the record company's take advantage of black artists, especially.

He said, "They steal, they cheat. They do everything they can."



He talks about the injustice here too in more detail, and about other black artists other than him who don't get the recognition they deserve. This one is a must see.

 

[redcrush]

It's just music elitists.Music elitists feel that unless you are on stage with an instrument singing you are a 'real' musician. Anyone else is just fake, manufactured pop star made by the record companies. It's stupid, but that's how they think.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

'Look with all due respect, but a man who's been making music,performing his ass off since his fifth, respected by (insert any real artist) and so on...and you compare that to singer/songwriters?' if anyone IS music, it's that man...Michael Jackson. "

I agree:yes:

 

[HIStory]

Talking about his lyrics, it's odd, because to me it seems the media only wanted MJ to write "feel good" music. As soon as he went deeper and darker, he was criticized for being "angry". That was one of the main criticism towards History. What did they expect after what he went through at the time? That he would just shrug it off and go back and sing "blame it on the boogey"?

I think as a lyricist he became significantly better after Bad, because I think that's when he started writing songs from his own experience and not just about some story he read in a paper or something. Too bad the media just rarely plays those songs. If they didn't just play Beat it all the time, maybe people would realize what a great lyricist MJ actually was and what deep things he was talking about in his lyrics!

 

[cmstrike]

Talking about his lyrics, it's odd, because to me it seems the media only wanted MJ to write "feel good" music. As soon as he went deeper and darker, he was criticized for being "angry". That was one of the main criticism towards History. What did they expect after what he went through at the time? That he would just shrug it off and go back and sing "blame it on the boogey"?

I think as a lyricist he became significantly better after Bad, because I think that's when he started writing songs from his own experience and not just about some story he read in a paper or something. Too bad the media just rarely plays those songs. If they didn't just play Beat it all the time, maybe people would realize what a great lyricist MJ actually was and what deep things he was talking about in his lyrics!

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, it's just too much effort for some people to do the research before passing their judgment. They can take the time to criticize, but anything constructive is out of the question.

Michael said it best, "Before you judge me, try hard to love me."

 

[Lucilla]

Don't pay attention to what some elitist jerkoffs working at a record store think. People who feel entitled to decide what is "real music" and what isn't are really not worth dealing with.

:clapping:

Now, people consider someone like Eric Clapton a "real musician" along the sentiment you cited, that he is a guy just standing on the stage and playing his guitar. But do they know he wrote relatively few of his songs?

They just assume Michael didn't write his songs, simply because it is their prejudice that someone who puts on such a show with dance and choreography and stuff, usually is just an act that is built up by producers and other creative staff.

:clapping:

It’s about the dancing and the show, I’m telling you.

There’s this collective belief that says everyone who can give that kind of show and especially dance like that just can’t write his own stuff. That’s why we always hear the media and people comparing him with all that bubblegum pop scene, which I hate. I have friends that are “elitist” but I take the time to “teach them” about MJ. Sometimes even I’m considered an elitist in music, of course I’m not, however I understand their beliefs about MJ are based in pure ignorance.

You just can’t compare MJ with anyone, especially anyone in the pop scene. What can I say, for me that kind of comparison is almost an insult.

That’s why I’ve always thought that “the king of pop” is such a small title for him, because MJ can write and compose about more than just sex and shallowness. When I listen to “Will you be there”, “Stranger in Moscow”, “Billie Jean” for me it’s so clear.

He can write, compose, sing, arrange, produce, make incredible short films, unbelievable shows and dance. It’s not his fault, hehe.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

Talking about his lyrics, it's odd, because to me it seems the media only wanted MJ to write "feel good" music. As soon as he went deeper and darker, he was criticized for being "angry". That was one of the main criticism towards History. What did they expect after what he went through at the time? That he would just shrug it off and go back and sing "blame it on the boogey"?

I think as a lyricist he became significantly better after Bad, because I think that's when he started writing songs from his own experience and not just about some story he read in a paper or something. Too bad the media just rarely plays those songs. If they didn't just play Beat it all the time, maybe people would realize what a great lyricist MJ actually was and what deep things he was talking about in his lyrics!

Wow i absolutely never knew that about Eric Clapton. I never really thought about it, but if someone would have asked me, i would have said i believed he wrote most of his songs. And you are very right about the deeper and darker lyrics. That already started with Dangerous and of course HIStory. But the media never took it serious cause they obviously always thought he was guilty and thought MJ didn't have any reason to talk about negative and sad things. They never took it serious.

I remember this ridiculous HIStory concert review from this dutch paper. It was full of praise about how full of great effects the show was, and how all the 'feel good' songs were great. But the writer of the review/article began to criticise when he started to talk about Earth Song. Saying this was unnessecary of Michael, why ruin such a good evening with a way too serious song, that simply wasn't meant for Michael Jackson, it is so damn obvious that this idiot writer simply doesn't get it. He simply doesn't get what MJ stood for. I wouldn't be surprised anymore if there's much more people like this that don't realize his multi-talents. And we have the media and such to thank for that, people just don't know. The non-fans that 'can apreciate some of his music' always say 'Ah he used to be so good with Thriller, those were the days...' and totally ignoring gems like Dangerous and HIStory or sigh...Bad too.

 

[analogue]

The worst part about some people who think that MJ was at his best during the Thriller era is that they never want to give MJ any/too much credit for that also. They always say ''Thriller was his best work and it was all because of Quincy Jones''

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

The worst part about some people who think that MJ was at his best during the Thriller era is that they never want to give MJ any/too much credit for that also. They always say ''Thriller was his best work and it was all because of Quincy Jones''

Ooooh right right, i know exactly what you mean.Sigh....those people. Those same people should take a look at that GearSlutz forum, the one with the audio engineers and producers and so on. The thread where they talk about Michael and how much he co produced and had his say in things, it's awesome to read those things. But of course...alot of these people don't even want to spend their time doing that.

 

[analogue]

Yeah MJ was in charge for all of his albums. Quincy Jones was working FOR Michael. Not the other way around. Michael always had the final say about what songs would make it onto his albums

and here's a quote from Michael himself

''I'm the captain of my ship. I'll take suggestions and listen to what everyone has to say but the final decision is mine''

 

[HIStory]

But the writer of the review/article began to criticise when he started to talk about Earth Song. Saying this was unnessecary of Michael, why ruin such a good evening with a way too serious song, that simply wasn't meant for Michael Jackson, it is so damn obvious that this idiot writer simply doesn't get it. He simply doesn't get what MJ stood for.

Michael was criticized for everything and anything. Talking about Earth Song, I remember when it came out as a single in Europe and on a British News channel there was this music critic talking about it totally slagging it off. Well, he couldn't slag off much about the music, so he tried to slag off the lyrics. And he said how ridiculous it is and, I remember this one thing very clearly, he mocked the line "what about the elephants/have we lost their trust?" He was like: "what's this stupid thing? how can you lose the trust of the elephants?" - some stupid shit like that. And I was like: is this guy so stupid or just pretending to be? Has he never heard of poetry and metaphores? :doh:

 

[analogue]

With the media it was always a lose lose situation with MJ

When he did something different from the ''feel good party songs'' the media said ''Oh Michael Jackson needs to go back to his old style, all this darker stuff isn't working for him''

but if MJ only did make nothing but ''feel good party songs'' the media would be saying ''Oh Michael Jackson never does anything original. It's always the same thing with him all the time''

So no matter what he did people would always have a problem

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

Michael was criticized for everything and anything. Talking about Earth Song, I remember when it came out as a single in Europe and on a British News channel there was this music critic talking about it totally slagging it off. Well, he couldn't slag off much about the music, so he tried to slag off the lyrics. And he said how ridiculous it is and, I remember this one thing very clearly, he mocked the line "what about the elephants/have we lost their trust?" He was like: "what's this stupid thing? how can you lose the trust of the elephants?" - some stupid shit like that. And I was like: is this guy so stupid or just pretending to be? Has he never heard of poetry and metaphores? :doh:

Yeah, just simply ridiculous. Its best to just ignore people like that. And its definitely true...when Michael was 'available' to the media and their 'friend' it was all good. But when he had some troubles in his life, simply private stuff, that's when the lies started. But the media spoke more negativity about him, then ever speaking positively about him..so sad.

 

[analogue]

When you show some people the album credits for MJ's albums and show them the songs that MJ has wrote by himself. I've honestly had some of them say to me ''Yeah well Michael is so rich that he can pay to give himself songwriting credits on his albums''

and i've actually had someone say to me ''The people who actually played an instrument on all those Michael Jackson songs are the real composers cause using your voice to compose music does not count''

 

[karom]

:sigh: well no matter what anyone says, Michael was, is and will always be THE BEST... music is Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson is music! If you don't want to give him credit for the amazing man he was, fine, but if you respect yourself, music, and most of all God then you HAVE to give him credit for the amazing talent he had as a singer, dancer, songwriter, composer, producer and everything. From the music, to the lyrics, to the videos, to the dance, everything was beyond what the world had seen before. he was a pioneer in every way and he will remain in history for that. You don't like him? OK, but you MUST give him credit for his talent. Period.

 

[HIStory]

When you show some people the album credits for MJ's albums and show them the songs that MJ has wrote by himself. I've honestly had some of them say to me ''Yeah well Michael is so rich that he can pay to give himself songwriting credits on his albums''

and i've actually had someone say to me ''The people who actually played an instrument on all those Michael Jackson songs are the real composers cause using your voice to compose music does not count''

What a stupid comment by that person! I guess those musicians could have got together without Michael then and write all of those songs without him? :doh: Why didn't they do that then?

And what's this obsession with instruments? Instruments are just a tool of music! It's just a technique of playing music. Playing instruments don't make you creative - and a songwriter needs to be creative. And as a songwriter you don't necessarily need to play instruments - Michael is the best example. It's like saying a poet is less of a poet if he cannot write it down on a paper. Well, guess what, writing it down on a paper is just a mean to record it! Of course, it helps if you can do that. However if you can't (but let's say somebody records it on a tape recorder) does it make you less of a poet? Even if your poem is beatifully composed and contains deep thoughts? I don't think so. Writing as well as playing instruments are just technicalities. The bottom line is what you have created!

People tend to mix up the words "instrumentalist" and "musician". Michael was not an instrumentalist (or probably just on a basic level) but he was a musician! Anybody who can compose a song like Billie Jean, Who is it, Earth Song etc - whether in the head or on a piano - . IS a musician! Period.

As for buying credits, that's funny. So who do this person think wrote Billie Jean, if not Michael Jackson? Trust me if it had been Quincy Jones we would know about it by know, since he likes to take a lot of credit for everything.

Noone would give up credits for those songs. They are worth a lot of money for the songwriters as they get royalties after them! It's not just about the honor but also about money. So it's stupid to say somebody would just give his songs to Michael without getting credited. Plus why would Michael credit other writers for some songs, but not for other songs?

Meh, it's just stupid, like all haters are.

 

[mjbunny]

I just ran into this problem. I was watching a Bruno Mars vid on youtube and so many commenters are trying to compare him to MJ (why can't Bruno Mars just be Bruno Mars, his own unique person? All the comparisons and seeming need people have to give away Michael's hard-earned and perfectly-deserved 'crown' just drive me NUTS.) Anyway, in the comments there were several people saying Michael didn't write any of his own songs, blah, blah. I'm really shocked that so many people are that ignorant. :no: Really. From the time I was 12 I knew that MJ wrote most of his songs, so I just assumed everyone else knew that. Flash forward nearly 30 years and I'm reading idiots dissing him all over the place with this completely uninformed BS. :doh: So ridiculous. It's not like it's a hard thing to find out and verify. Just look up the song credits. Duh.

Talking about Earth Song, I remember when it came out as a single in Europe and on a British News channel there was this music critic talking about it totally slagging it off. Well, he couldn't slag off much about the music, so he tried to slag off the lyrics. And he said how ridiculous it is and, I remember this one thing very clearly, he mocked the line "what about the elephants/have we lost their trust?" He was like: "what's this stupid thing? how can you lose the trust of the elephants?" - some stupid shit like that. And I was like: is this guy so stupid or just pretending to be? Has he never heard of poetry and metaphores? :doh:

Quite possibly really that stupid, yeah. :smilerolleyes: I remember that type of thing too. I was in the US and all the reviews were negative about Earth Song, calling it overproduced drivel and such. Now, on each MJ album there was at least one song on my first listen that would bring me to tears, that was just so amazing I had to stop and hear it again before I could bring myself to go on. And on HIStory... ding-ding... it was Earth Song. We don't all have to like the same songs to the same degrees, but I was sitting there thinking (about the reviewers), "Did they listen to the same song I just heard???! Cuz, ummm, I thinking not. W.T.H.?"

 

[HIStory]

^^ I really think the media is corrupt and the music media with the critics is no exception. They write what they are ordered to write.

 

[analogue]

What a stupid comment by that person! I guess those musicians could have got together without Michael then and write all of those songs without him? :doh: Why didn't they do that then?

And what's this obsession with instruments? Instruments are just a tool of music! It's just a technique of playing music. Playing instruments don't make you creative - and a songwriter needs to be creative. And as a songwriter you don't necessarily need to play instruments - Michael is the best example. It's like saying a poet is less of a poet if he cannot write it down on a paper. Well, guess what, writing it down on a paper is just a mean to record it! Of course, it helps if you can do that. However if you can't (but let's say somebody records it on a tape recorder) does it make you less of a poet? Even if your poem is beatifully composed and contains deep thoughts? I don't think so. Writing as well as playing instruments are just technicalities. The bottom line is what you have created!

People tend to mix up the words "instrumentalist" and "musician". Michael was not an instrumentalist (or probably just on a basic level) but he was a musician! Anybody who can compose a song like Billie Jean, Who is it, Earth Song etc - whether in the head or on a piano - . IS a musician! Period.

As for buying credits, that's funny. So who do this person think wrote Billie Jean, if not Michael Jackson? Trust me if it had been Quincy Jones we would know about it by know, since he likes to take a lot of credit for everything.

Noone would give up credits for those songs. They are worth a lot of money for the songwriters as they get royalties after them! It's not just about the honor but also about money. So it's stupid to say somebody would just give his songs to Michael without getting credited. Plus why would Michael credit other writers for some songs, but not for other songs?

Meh, it's just stupid, like all haters are.

Very true and alot of people forget that the human voice IS an instrument. Some of the most beautiful melodies ever are created with the human voice.

Oh and to add to some people's stupidity i've actually had someone tell me that Eddie Van Halen composed Beat It.

 

[cmstrike]

People seem to forget that:

1. Playing an instrument is only ONE PART of being a musician.

2. The human voice is probably the most important instrument in music.

Seriously, just about anybody with a bit of talent can learn to play an instrument well. But to perfect the art of vocalizing? That's something that takes a tremendous amount of God-given talent. I can play guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, but I can't sing worth a damn. I just wasn't born with that gift. My respect for vocalists who have the discipline and dedication to perfect their craft is through the roof.

So hypothetically, even if Michael DIDN'T write his own lyrics or his own music, he's still the greatest vocalist I've ever heard, and you can't teach somebody to be that good. I'm sorry, you just can't. Combine all of that with the fact that Michael had a fantastic gift for songwriting, dancing, filmmaking, not to mention the biggest heart this world has ever seen, and you can see why people might think it'd be "too good to be true" that one man can be such a visionary. But it's true. It's damn true.