Jackson's Recordings Subject of Creditor's Claim

Samtkaninchen

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JACKSON'S RECORDINGS SUBJECT OF CREDITOR'S CLAIM

MICHAEL JACKSON was recording a new musical when he died in June (09), according to the bosses of a sound equipment company who claim they have a stockpile of unreleased material.
Executives at Audio 4 Video Digital, Inc. claim they were working on Jackson's music up until his death - part of a long relationship between the two parties.
The claim emerged in a lawsuit Audio 4 Video Digital is filing against Jackson's estate for $736,502 (£460,315) in unpaid rent for the use of their equipment "in connection with the making of a musical", reports TMZ.com.
The late entertainer is listed as the performer and the producer of the spectacle in invoices dated up until his death on 25 June (09).
Company bosses are using the lawsuit to claim co-ownership of the songs, along with the Jackson estate.
It is the latest in a long line of creditors' claims against the Jackson estate in recent months.
Jackson's former choreographer LaVelle Smith Jr. alleged in October (09) he is still owed $144,500 (£96,300) by the administrators of the singer's fortune, and in September (09) alone, officials were hit with non-payment suits from an accounting firm, a Las Vegas security business and a hairstylist.

Source: http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/jacksons-recordings-subject-of-creditors-claim_1120981
 
To read that Michael was recording a new musical breaks my heart. He has so many fantastic plans ... :no:
 
I am a huge fans of musicals. And for Michael to write a musical would be a dream come true for me... He had so many ideas, so much to do, so many years to live. It's heartbreaking...
 
JACKSON'S RECORDINGS SUBJECT OF CREDITOR'S CLAIM

MICHAEL JACKSON was recording a new musical when he died in June (09), according to the bosses of a sound equipment company who claim they have a stockpile of unreleased material.
Executives at Audio 4 Video Digital, Inc. claim they were working on Jackson's music up until his death - part of a long relationship between the two parties.
The claim emerged in a lawsuit Audio 4 Video Digital is filing against Jackson's estate for $736,502 (£460,315) in unpaid rent for the use of their equipment "in connection with the making of a musical", reports TMZ.com.
The late entertainer is listed as the performer and the producer of the spectacle in invoices dated up until his death on 25 June (09).
Company bosses are using the lawsuit to claim co-ownership of the songs, along with the Jackson estate.
It is the latest in a long line of creditors' claims against the Jackson estate in recent months.
Jackson's former choreographer LaVelle Smith Jr. alleged in October (09) he is still owed $144,500 (£96,300) by the administrators of the singer's fortune, and in September (09) alone, officials were hit with non-payment suits from an accounting firm, a Las Vegas security business and a hairstylist.

Source: http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/jacksons-recordings-subject-of-creditors-claim_1120981

So i get that Michael used the A4VD studio ... so they should be paid... but they want part ownership? Is this pure greed or am I missing something?
 
So i get that Michael used the A4VD studio ... so they should be paid... but they want part ownership? Is this pure greed or am I missing something?

That does sound farfetched. Unless they actually co-produced the songs. Otherwise, I can't see why they would have any ownership in actual product. Just like our landlord has nothing to do with owning what our company makes in their building.
 
Money grabbing again. They know whenever this is released it will make money..the love of Money will send some to hell.
I think only the use of studio should be paid
 
That does sound farfetched. Unless they actually co-produced the songs. Otherwise, I can't see why they would have any ownership in actual product. Just like our landlord has nothing to do with owning what our company makes in their building.

exactly!!!!

I mean my first reaction when I read this was... If MJ was here they wouldn't be vying to be co-owners of the songs/ materials. :bugeyed

Sure they should get paid for using their equipment but ownership .....??:evil:

Money grabbing again. They know whenever this is released it will make money..the love of Money will send some to hell.
I think only the use of studio should be paid
:clapping:
 
this is about as stupid as it gets for claims against the estate. and thats saying something. well there goes their business cause no one will use them now they have pulled such a stupid stunt. explain to me how a studio that gets rented out to a singer suddenly then becomes owners of the songs that are recorded in that studio lol take the pee or what. waiting on the esates filing to get those songs handed over
 
So i get that Michael used the A4VD studio ... so they should be paid... but they want part ownership? Is this pure greed or am I missing something?

you're not missing anything. and for them to make that claim, makes it easy to believe they are lying, altogether, and that those are bogus invoices, that they made in a back room somewhere, and they are in the salimander line of many who are trying to find a 'clever' way to steal from Michael.

if they were legit, they'd be like TMez and ask for a simple bill for overlooked services. not a claim to copyright which they know would make them filthy rich.
 
even in death Michael can't Xcape the greedy hands that reach in to his pockets.
 
That does sound farfetched. Unless they actually co-produced the songs. Otherwise, I can't see why they would have any ownership in actual product. Just like our landlord has nothing to do with owning what our company makes in their building.


Exactly!

But - if Branca & McClain don't pay, the studio could take possession of the recordings.

Sony can't claim breach because MJ wasn't a Sony artist at the time of the recording either.

But I am MORE than sure that the estate is working on settling the bill. The music belongs to the MJ3. Period.
 
this is about as stupid as it gets for claims against the estate. and thats saying something. well there goes their business cause no one will use them now they have pulled such a stupid stunt. explain to me how a studio that gets rented out to a singer suddenly then becomes owners of the songs that are recorded in that studio lol take the pee or what. waiting on the esates filing to get those songs handed over


The master recording can be claimed as ownership of the studio if the singer is not signed to anyone and did not pay.

BUT ... the song's publishing/copyright belong to the estate.
 
The master recording can be claimed as ownership of the studio if the singer is not signed to anyone and did not pay.

BUT ... the song's publishing/copyright belong to the estate.

copyright can include all sounds of a master recording. so i doubt that company can own anything. i'm sure lawyers have advised Michael against people like this.
 
you're not missing anything. and for them to make that claim, makes it easy to believe they are lying, altogether, and that those are bogus invoices, that they made in a back room somewhere, and they are in the salimander line of many who are trying to find a 'clever' way to steal from Michael.

if they were legit, they'd be like TMez and ask for a simple bill for overlooked services. not a claim to copyright which they know would make them filthy rich.

dirty little worms. :puke:
 
copyright can include all sounds of a master recording. so i doubt that company can own anything. i'm sure lawyers have advised Michael against people like this.

so there's a chance of them claiming ownership?

There are 2 types of music copyrights:

1- Music & Lyrics aka Publishing rights/ownership

2- Actual sound recording

Two different things.

The studio could claim #2 if the estate doesn't pay, but how will they be able to legally release it if they eventually need permission from the estate for #1?

So the studio is better off waiting to be paid, which I think they more than likely will.
 
sony better jump on that , there are the new songs they were looking for . i hope branca is a good lawyer
 
There are 2 types of music copyrights:

1- Music & Lyrics aka Publishing rights/ownership

2- Actual sound recording

Two different things.

The studio could claim #2 if the estate doesn't pay, but how will they be able to legally release it if they eventually need permission from the estate for #1?

So the studio is better off waiting to be paid, which I think they more than likely will.


thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D
 
There are 2 types of music copyrights:

1- Music & Lyrics aka Publishing rights/ownership

2- Actual sound recording

Two different things.

The studio could claim #2 if the estate doesn't pay, but how will they be able to legally release it if they eventually need permission from the estate for #1?

So the studio is better off waiting to be paid, which I think they more than likely will.

yeah, but MJ being a responsible copyright holder obviously copyrighted both number 1 and 2. so, they don't have a claim.
........................................................................

on another note, if these people are evil enough to go for this frivolous lawsuit, then most likely, they are evil enough to have accused MJ of child molestation. and with these lawsuits, they prove that they don't care about Michael's children. so...they don't care about children.
 
yeah, but MJ being a responsible copyright holder obviously copyrighted both number 1 and 2. so, they don't have a claim.
........................................................................

on another note, if these people are evil enough to go for this frivolous lawsuit, then most likely, they are evil enough to have accused MJ of child molestation. and with these lawsuits, they prove that they don't care about Michael's children. so...they don't care about children.

To address your first comment - Mj would not copyright a "demo" as a type #2. That copyright is normally done when the album is done mastering & ready for manufacturing. The songs, however - even partially - can be copywritten at any time during or after creation.

The second comment: These people worked with Michael extensively. They did the sound for This Is It & Michael hired them to do sound for the concerts. They more than likely just want to get their expenses paid. It's like if I'm a caterer to a wedding, and the night before the big day, nothing happens. I'd keep the deposit, right?

Well in recording studio situations, especially with artists like MJ, they work out "spec deals" - kind of like a credit line. When the recordings are complete, the label and/or artist pays the bill when they are done.

It's BUSINESS. Not personal. If I were a business owner, I'd try to collect on $700,000 that a deceased friend/colleague/boss used up in time, materials, etc... IF I knew that my deceased friend's estate was making loads of money now, right?

As far as the studio claiming that's their property though? It's gonna be VERY TOUGH for them to claim it & try to sell it. Branca & McClain would pound them to the ground with copyright infringement lawsuits for the music & lyrics. And then, studio will go bankrupt & go out of business.

Anyway - it's part of what's called the MUSIC BUSINESS.

But of course, things take a higher degree of everything because that studio does have the Holiest of Musical Holy Grails in their hands right now - Michael Jackson's last recordings.
 
To address your first comment - Mj would not copyright a "demo" as a type #2. That copyright is normally done when the album is done mastering & ready for manufacturing. The songs, however - even partially - can be copywritten at any time during or after creation.

The second comment: These people worked with Michael extensively. They did the sound for This Is It & Michael hired them to do sound for the concerts. They more than likely just want to get their expenses paid. It's like if I'm a caterer to a wedding, and the night before the big day, nothing happens. I'd keep the deposit, right?

Well in recording studio situations, especially with artists like MJ, they work out "spec deals" - kind of like a credit line. When the recordings are complete, the label and/or artist pays the bill when they are done.

It's BUSINESS. Not personal. If I were a business owner, I'd try to collect on $700,000 that a deceased friend/colleague/boss used up in time, materials, etc... IF I knew that my deceased friend's estate was making loads of money now, right?

As far as the studio claiming that's their property though? It's gonna be VERY TOUGH for them to claim it & try to sell it. Branca & McClain would pound them to the ground with copyright infringement lawsuits for the music & lyrics. And then, studio will go bankrupt & go out of business.

Anyway - it's part of what's called the MUSIC BUSINESS.

But of course, things take a higher degree of everything because that studio does have the Holiest of Musical Holy Grails in their hands right now - Michael Jackson's last recordings.

no no...MJ WOULD copyright a demo. he would copyright every single last inkling of anything to do with his music. do you realize how many people could have had him, if he didn't, over the years? you copyright whatever you put out, the moment it is written. and if anyone was responsible that way, it's Michael. MJ didn't believe in 'budgets'. he didn't mind spending money to protect his material. do you really think that someone willing to pay for his own Thriller video, would leave any stone unturned? no. you copyright the demo, the middle, and the finished master. you copyright everything, because something might change about the sound, during the process. MJ's known as savvy. he's not going to be stupid enough not to copyright, and re copyright. a lot of people might believe in poor man's copyright. but not MJ. if you spit on a piece of paper and it makes a sound and you believe it's a hit, you copyright it. remember, there were demos released on his Ultimate collection, t25, and other rereleases. obviously, those demos were copyrighted. and you see how people always tried to 'leak' MJ music..maybe even before it was finished. MJ..wise enough to know people would try that, obviously copyright everything, whether it was finished or not.

and..that bit about things being 'business' and not personal? there's nobody that noble, if they are willing to claim what these people are trying to claim.

to address your comment about things taking on a higher degree...MJ believed BEFORE the fact. these people are the kind to believe AFTER the fact. he believed enough in his material to multi copyright. another thread already displayed how MJ twice copyrighted the same material, that Paul Anka tried to fully claim. that kind of care of Michael's kept Anka(a man who is supposed to be legitmate, but made illegitimate claims) from stealing an entire song from Michael. so, if suppsedly legitimate people are willing to make illegitimate claims, then, it's not just 'business' in this world. this world has proven to be unscrupulous. it's not just 'music business' as usual, in this world. those people don't care about MJ's children.
 
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no no...MJ WOULD copyright a demo. he would copyright every single last inkling of anything to do with his music. do you realize how many people could have had him, if he didn't, over the years? you copyright whatever you put out, the moment it is written. and if anyone was responsible that way, it's Michael.

You're not understanding what I nicely explained to you:

THERE ARE TWO MUSICAL COPYRIGHTS:

1) for the actual melody and lyrics - i.e. Form PA (creative works), this is the one that songwriters/publishers use. Michael used this one to copyright the songs he wrote & co-wrote.

2) the one that is for the finished musical album or song that is sold in stores, which is Form SR - for the actual sound recording. This is the one record labels use - and MJ cannot claim it unless he buys his master recordings back and/or the label gives them back to the recording artist.

MJ didn't believe in 'budgets'. he didn't mind spending money to protect his material. do you really think that someone willing to pay for his own Thriller video, would leave any stone unturned? no. you copyright the demo, the middle, and the finished master. you copyright everything, because something might change about the sound, during the process.

AGAIN, you did not read what I clearly wrote. MJ can copyright the Thriller video because he paid for it and put it out himself.

And yes, MJ did copyright his songs melody & lyrics - BUT NOT THE FINAL RECORDING because that copyright belongs to the recording label who manufactures & sells the album/song.

Two different copyrights - and you're confusing them.

MJ's known as savvy. he's not going to be stupid enough not to copyright, and re copyright. a lot of people might believe in poor man's copyright. but not MJ. remember, there were demos released on his Ultimate collection, t25, and other rereleases. obviously, those demos were copyrighted.

Honey, you are preaching to the choir here. You don't have to convince me that MJ's smart.

AGAIN - MJ did copyright his songs - music & lyrics, but the final mastered polished album - the sound recording of Michael's songs, belongs to the label until the artist buys the recording masters back or the label sells it off to someone else.

FOR EXAMPLE, here's the process:

A) Michael writes a song & does a demo for it.

B) Michael fills out FORM PA from the Library of Congress, writes a $45 check (which is the fee) and pops in the envelope the lyrics and cassette/CD of the demo song.

C) Michael goes back to the studio to make an album.

D) MJ licenses his songs to Sony, which essentially is a permission for Sony to sell and distribute the songs he owns and gets a royalty for that. (This is called a mechanical license.)

E) After Michael is finished the album, right before the release, Sony then fills out their copyright, which would be FORM SR, because they are manufacturing & selling the sound recording & they own the recording of Michael's songs.

Another example just so you can get the jist:

Let's say that Beyonce wants to remake Wanna Be Startin' Something, with new music (no sampling). Beyonce would have to ask permission from Michael HIMSELF - and not Sony - because Michael is the copyright owner of WBSS.

But if Beyonce wants to use a sample of WBSS from the Thriller album, then Beyonce has to ask permission from Michael (songwriter/publisher) and Sony, because Sony/Epic is the owner of the sound recording of Thriller.

Lastly, and AGAIN: what the studio is allegedly claiming ownership to (which they won't because I believe they will get paid) - is the SOUND RECORDING. Until Michael's estate pays the bill, it technically is still that studio's property.

and..that bit about things being 'business' and not personal? there's nobody that noble, if they are willing to claim what these people are trying to claim.
Regardless, it's BUSINESS. They just want the bill to be paid.

Here's a helpful article to let you know more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_industry
 
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I am a huge fans of musicals. And for Michael to write a musical would be a dream come true for me... He had so many ideas, so much to do, so many years to live. It's heartbreaking...
I agree. So much more left in him. It makes me sick.

Side note: Is your username a L5Y reference?!...

even in death Michael can't Xcape the greedy hands that reach in to his pockets.

I feel it's going to be much *worse* in death. He's gone - he can't dispute it - it's a free for all. If you think someone will believe you, then step right up - go ahead - give it a shot!...I think we're going to get some real good comic relief here... All we can hope for is that the estate does such a damn good job at shooting things down and telling people with bogus claims to btfo that eventually those losers will get the message - you're not getting anything so don't waste your time and money.
 
You're not understanding what I nicely explained to you:

THERE ARE TWO MUSICAL COPYRIGHTS:

1) for the actual melody and lyrics - i.e. Form PA (creative works), this is the one that songwriters/publishers use. Michael used this one to copyright the songs he wrote & co-wrote.

2) the one that is for the finished musical album or song that is sold in stores, which is Form SR - for the actual sound recording. This is the one record labels use - and MJ cannot claim it unless he buys his master recordings back and/or the label gives them back to the recording artist.

AGAIN, you did not read what I clearly wrote. MJ can copyright the Thriller video because he paid for it and put it out himself.

And yes, MJ did copyright his songs melody & lyrics - BUT NOT THE FINAL RECORDING because that copyright belongs to the recording label who manufactures & sells the album/song.

Two different copyrights - and you're confusing them.
Honey, you are preaching to the choir here. You don't have to convince me that MJ's smart.

AGAIN - MJ did copyright his songs - music & lyrics, but the final mastered polished album - the sound recording of Michael's songs, belongs to the label until the artist buys the recording masters back or the label sells it off to someone else.

FOR EXAMPLE, here's the process:

A) Michael writes a song & does a demo for it.

B) Michael fills out FORM PA from the Library of Congress, writes a $45 check (which is the fee) and pops in the envelope the lyrics and cassette/CD of the demo song.

C) Michael goes back to the studio to make an album.

D) MJ licenses his songs to Sony, which essentially is a permission for Sony to sell and distribute the songs he owns and gets a royalty for that. (This is called a mechanical license.)

E) After Michael is finished the album, right before the release, Sony then fills out their copyright, which would be FORM SR, because they are manufacturing & selling the sound recording & they own the recording of Michael's songs.

Another example just so you can get the jist:

Let's say that Beyonce wants to remake Wanna Be Startin' Something, with new music (no sampling). Beyonce would have to ask permission from Michael HIMSELF - and not Sony - because Michael is the copyright owner of WBSS.

But if Beyonce wants to use a sample of WBSS from the Thriller album, then Beyonce has to ask permission from Michael (songwriter/publisher) and Sony, because Sony/Epic is the owner of the sound recording of Thriller.

Lastly, and AGAIN: what the studio is allegedly claiming ownership to (which they won't because I believe they will get paid) - is the SOUND RECORDING. Until Michael's estate pays the bill, it technically is still that studio's property.

Regardless, it's BUSINESS. They just want the bill to be paid.

Here's a helpful article to let you know more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_industry[/QUOTE]

anybody can write in wikipedia. i copyright stuff with PA forms. certainly, MJ did. i already know about the two forms of copyright. so i know HE did. he can certainly copyright every step of the process.

and you have seen their claim. they don't want just a bill. they want to make a killing off of his songs.

and even if Sony fully owned anything, i don't see how another 'studio' can just 'technically' claim ownership of anything here.

you know what? MJ has obviously made fool proof moves through the years, because people have been after his stuff for years. so, even if you and me both are missing something, i'm sure MJ has it covered.
 
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anybody can write in wikipedia. i copyright stuff with PA forms. certainly, MJ did. i already know about the two forms of copyright. so i know HE did. he can certainly copyright every step of the process.

and you have seen their claim. they don't want just a bill. they want to make a killing off of his songs.

The studio is technically the owner of the recordings - NOT THE SONGS - and God & MJ only know what he was doing in there to rack up a 700,000 bill.

If you want a more credible source, read
All You Need to Know About the Music Business

And you are WRONG about both copyrights. MJ only did Form PA copyright.

The record label copyrights with Form SR - unless MJ owned Sony completely.

Michael owns his intellectual property - but he does not own his finished product, aka the final sound recordings, because it was Sony/Epic who packaged, manufactured, distributed and sold the album.

HOWEVER, MJ's master recordings revert back to him I think 2011, when the option in his contract with Sony to hold his masters are up.
 
The studio is technically the owner of the recordings - NOT THE SONGS - and God & MJ only know what he was doing in there to rack up a 700,000 bill.

If you want a more credible source, read
All You Need to Know About the Music Business

And you are WRONG about both copyrights. MJ only did Form PA copyright.

The record label copyrights with Form SR - unless MJ owned Sony completely.

Michael owns his intellectual property - but he does not own his finished product, aka the final sound recordings, because it was Sony/Epic who packaged, manufactured, distributed and sold the album.

HOWEVER, MJ's master recordings revert back to him I think 2011, when the option in his contract with Sony to hold his masters are up.

how do either of us know what MJ copyrighted, anyway? neither of us have the full slate of copyright office records. how do we know what MJ owns? and how do you explain that studio technically owning something that belongs to SOny..IF it belongs TOTALLY to Sony?
 
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how do either of us know what MJ copyrighted, anyway? how do we know what MJ owns?

Firstly - I don't know. We can only assume that MJ did submit Form PAs for his songs when he wrote them - as he always did.

and how do you explain that studio technically owning something that belongs to SOny..IF it belongs TOTALLY to Sony?
Anything that MJ recorded after 2004 and releases doesn't belong to Sony.

Prior to 2004, YES.

After 2004, NO.

MJs a free agent. No contract with anyone.

So this recording studio has the demos in their hands right now. They have it all. The bills not paid for it. They technically "own" the recording itself, not the songs, until the 700,000 is paid.

But the studio would be committing suicide if they even DARE try to release it themselves to sell. Because they'd still need the estate's permission (mechanical licenses) to release the material commercially. So OF COURSE the studio will play hardball. They have the holiest of musical holy grails in their hands right now - and technically they own it.

And Branca & McClain would do a cease & desist claiming copyright infringement & the colossal damage (moneywise & public relations-wise) would cause that studio to close their doors.

Now, when Branca & McClain pay the 700,000 bill, the studio will not have any claim to the SOUND RECORDING of Michael's songs - and the sound recording will revert to the estate.
 
Firstly - I don't know. We can only assume that MJ did submit Form PAs for his songs when he wrote them - as he always did.

Anything that MJ recorded after 2004 and releases doesn't belong to Sony.

Prior to 2004, YES.

After 2004, NO.

MJs a free agent. No contract with anyone.

So this recording studio has the demos in their hands right now. They have it all. The bills not paid for it. They technically "own" the recording itself, not the songs, until the 700,000 is paid.

But the studio would be committing suicide if they even DARE try to release it themselves to sell. Because they'd still need the estate's permission (mechanical licenses) to release the material commercially. So OF COURSE the studio will play hardball. They have the holiest of musical holy grails in their hands right now - and technically they own it.

And Branca & McClain would do a cease & desist claiming copyright infringement & the colossal damage (moneywise & public relations-wise) would cause that studio to close their doors.

Now, when Branca & McClain pay the 700,000 bill, the studio will not have any claim to the SOUND RECORDING of Michael's songs - and the sound recording will revert to the estate.

and how do you know MJ didn't copyright SR forms past 2004..especially as a free agent? like i said, i know that anyone can acquire an SR form. i know that, personally. as far as Sony goes..MJ has wisdom of history of recording artists, who were taken advantage of, by record companies. we have no way of knowing whether or not, he knew the business principles that would give him the knowledge to copyright with SR forms, and work with Sony in a way that allowed him more power over sound recordings than you traditionally know about.

like i said..(and this is something you did not address) he has been pursued in this nefarious way for more tha 27 years..and he has yet to be stiffed. something wise of him, is behind that.
 
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Firstly - I don't know. We can only assume that MJ did submit Form PAs for his songs when he wrote them - as he always did.

Anything that MJ recorded after 2004 and releases doesn't belong to Sony.

Prior to 2004, YES.

After 2004, NO.

MJs a free agent. No contract with anyone.

So this recording studio has the demos in their hands right now. They have it all. The bills not paid for it. They technically "own" the recording itself, not the songs, until the 700,000 is paid.

But the studio would be committing suicide if they even DARE try to release it themselves to sell. Because they'd still need the estate's permission (mechanical licenses) to release the material commercially. So OF COURSE the studio will play hardball. They have the holiest of musical holy grails in their hands right now - and technically they own it.

And Branca & McClain would do a cease & desist claiming copyright infringement & the colossal damage (moneywise & public relations-wise) would cause that studio to close their doors.

Now, when Branca & McClain pay the 700,000 bill, the studio will not have any claim to the SOUND RECORDING of Michael's songs - and the sound recording will revert to the estate.

Exactly.

It's similar to taking a picture of someone. If you have your pictures taken at a store, but don't pay, the store can keep the pictures, but it doesn't give them the right to use said pictures in their advertising or anything like that.
 
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