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If there was evidence that Michael ever harmed a child,would you still be a fan?

Stay on topic and stop the fan integrity policing.
 
Serious Effect said:
Why is this even a topic? It should be closed. What's to gain from this discussion?
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It's a valid topic for a thread and it's no worse than the hoax theory thread or the 'Asking ourselves tough questions' thread. Gaz doesn't want these kinds of discussions to be suppressed or banned from the forum.
 
Anna said:
It's a valid topic for a thread and it's no worse than the hoax theory thread or the 'Asking ourselves tough questions' thread. Gaz doesn't want these kinds of discussions to be suppressed or banned from the forum.
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Look, no disrespect to you, the forum rules, or Gaz, who I assume is the forum owner, because I am new to this forum, but how is this a "valid" topic? I respect that discussions are open on this forum, albeit this discussion, and ones that also center around a vapid "what if" scenario or express uncertainty about something, is just utterly senseless. "If there was evidence that Michael ever harmed a child, would you still be a fan?," my goodness. Just reading that question makes me feel like such a fool. Michael Jackson is an innocent man, and nothing more needs to be discussed about it. No bs "if" topic starters that even cast doubt on his innocence or my affiliation with him as a fan. And yes, this is way worse than the hoax theory thread. I'm astounded that there are even five pages worth of posts.

Again, no beef, or drama, with you or Gaz. I am just trying to figure out the validity behind this thread.
 
serious effect said:
look, no disrespect to you, the forum rules, or gaz, who i assume is the forum owner, because i am new to this forum, but how is this a "valid" topic? I respect that discussions are open on this forum, albeit this discussion, and ones that also center around a vapid "what if" scenario or express uncertainty about something, is just utterly senseless. "if there was evidence that michael ever harmed a child, would you still be a fan?," my goodness. Just reading that question makes me feel like such a fool. Michael jackson is an innocent man, and nothing more needs to be discussed about it. No bs "if" topic starters that even cast doubt on his innocence or my affiliation with him as a fan. And yes, this is way worse than the hoax theory thread. I'm astounded that there are even five pages worth of posts.

Again, no beef, or drama, with you or gaz. I am just trying to figure out the validity behind this thread.
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a thousand claps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Lightbringer said:
Hey Elton.

How did you come up with the idea of making this post now almost 6 months after the last post in the thread? I am just curious.

Your initial line: "Do you really think Michael Jackson was a gentle child molester" caught me by suprise. I just did not expect that post right now.
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I've been very busy with other things.
 
Serious Effect said:
Look, no disrespect to you, the forum rules, or Gaz, who I assume is the forum owner, because I am new to this forum, but how is this a "valid" topic? I respect that discussions are open on this forum, albeit this discussion, and ones that also center around a vapid "what if" scenario or express uncertainty about something, is just utterly senseless. "If there was evidence that Michael ever harmed a child, would you still be a fan?," my goodness. Just reading that question makes me feel like such a fool. Michael Jackson is an innocent man, and nothing more needs to be discussed about it. No bs "if" topic starters that even cast doubt on his innocence or my affiliation with him as a fan. And yes, this is way worse than the hoax theory thread. I'm astounded that there are even five pages worth of posts.

Again, no beef, or drama, with you or Gaz. I am just trying to figure out the validity behind this thread.
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I do not decide what is or is not acceptable on this forum. Gaz does not want to stifle discussions about Michael that may be controversial to some members. Some fans want to have these kinds of discussions and they are allowed to express their thoughts as much as any other fan. Unless it's just hateful, trolling, or violates the rules, it's not going to be removed. If you find this thread or similar threads offensive then I suggest you just don't engage with them. It's not difficult. 99% of the threads on this forum are "safe".
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Members resorting to insults, personal attacks, or fan integrity accusations will have their posts removed. Don't be disrespectful to others just because you disagree with them.

Back on topic.
 
I find it extremely difficult to ignore these threads, because they show up when I check what’s new.
 
ScreenOrigami;4294801 said:
I find it extremely difficult to ignore these threads, because they show up when I check what’s new.
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I agree. i wish it was a way to block threads. this a older site so i doubt there's a block thread feature.
 
Just don't click on it! Good lord, people. Look at something you actually like. No one is forcing you to engage with these threads that you hate so much. It's like choosing to poke yourself in the eye when you could very easily not poke yourself in the eye. When you come into these threads to complain and attack others and be intolerant all you're doing is making more work for staff and making the fans that you disagree with feel bad. Either express your opinion respectfully, without spewing toxic waste at other members, or don't post at all. You need to accept that not everyone is going to feel or think the way you do and that is not an excuse for inflammatory remarks, insults, fan integrity accusations or any other unacceptable behaviour. 99% of the threads on this forum are not controversial, so stop focusing on the tiny amount that you don't like. It is completely irrational to waste your time unnecessarily on something that you don't like.

Any further complaints can be directed to me through PM, but it will not result in the thread being closed.
 
I’m not choosing to see these threads. The “What’s new” section shows a preview of each post, and it’s hard to ignore that when you’re a quick reader. And I strongly believe that Michael deserves all the respect that we owe each other.
 
ScreenOrigami;4294807 said:
I’m not choosing to see these threads. The “What’s new” section shows a preview of each post, and it’s hard to ignore that when you’re a quick reader. And I strongly believe that Michael deserves all the respect that we owe each other.
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Then don't click on the What's New section... If you want to see threads that have new posts then just click on New Posts instead.
 
Then I would actually have to click on a thread to see if I want to engage with it, thus potentially poking myself in the eye all the time. That’s not really helpful either.

I acknowledge that the rules are the way they are. I’d like to add though, that I know for a fact that this is one of the reasons for some people to choose not to donate to our fundraiser or engage with the forum other than leeching the latest leaks.

We have to agree to disagree here, but I truly believe we have room for improvement in this regard. I know of no other fan forum where these kind of threads would be allowed.
 
ScreenOrigami;4294812 said:
Then I would actually have to click on a thread to see if I want to engage with it, thus potentially poking myself in the eye all the time. That’s not really helpful either.

I acknowledge that the rules are the way they are. I’d like to add though, that I know for a fact that this is one of the reasons for some people to choose not to donate to our fundraiser or engage with the forum other than leeching the latest leaks.

We have to agree to disagree here, but I truly believe we have room for improvement in this regard. I know of no other fan forum where these kind of threads would be allowed.
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So? We are all adults, capable of exercising self-restraint and being rational. Once you know it is a thread you don't like, all you have to do is leave and then not click on it if you see it has new posts. No one is forcing you to keep reading these threads and get offended. You are doing it to yourself.

If you or anyone else don't like the way this forum is run I suggest you take it up with Gaz. It's his house, he makes the rules. You are all taking advantage of a service that Gaz is providing. Most of you for free. And this service is not given based on a specific set of feelings and opinions about Michael, it's for all fans. Bear these things in mind when you start feeling entitled.
 
ScreenOrigami;4294812 said:
Then I would actually have to click on a thread to see if I want to engage with it, thus potentially poking myself in the eye all the time. That’s not really helpful either.

I acknowledge that the rules are the way they are. I’d like to add though, that I know for a fact that this is one of the reasons for some people to choose not to donate to our fundraiser or engage with the forum other than leeching the latest leaks.

We have to agree to disagree here, but I truly believe we have room for improvement in this regard. I know of no other fan forum where these kind of threads would be allowed.
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EXACTLY, NO OTHER ARTIST FAN FORUM WOULD ALLOW THIS DISRESPECT!! Why should MJ fans just have to sit back and ACCEPT this type of thread? Seriously, we are the only fandom who act as if we have the RIGHT to ALLOW a person to just post whatever they feel like saying about Michael, although it is insulting to him and his legacy. It is NOT alright for this type of thread to be allowed when a “hater” can easily join the discussion and expand on negativity.

Michael had to endure this type of crap when he was alive from “haters”, why should a FAN forum permeate that kind of crap by acting as if it is “objective” discussion. Thankfully, I’m not the only one who thinks that it is NOT perfectly alright to allow this kind of divisive, dispectful kind of thread. Of course, we can SKIP the thread and not join in the discussion, but, why perpetuate that type of NEGATIVE narrative anyway? The bottomline is would YOU or any of us want someone doing YOU or a family member like that? I know I wouldn’t. Sometimes, SOME of the fans act as if Michael is/was not even human and that he didn’t/doesn’t deserve respect. I don’t give a @#$& if this is a discussion forum, SOME THINGS should not be allowed.

KI am truly disappointed that this is even under debate. It is repulsive to ask such a question in a fan forum, when WE fight so hard for Michael and his 100% INNOCENCE. To even ask such a question is a total insult to my intelligence and sense of moral compass. It doesn’t serve an answer or discussion, because it makes it seem as if a person would ignore child abuse just because you love an artist’s creative output. Yes, it is an INSULT to our AWARENESS of these fake allegations. No one is stupid enough to just blindly defend Michael without being 100% aware of the FACTS. I’m not speaking of rumors, innuendo, lies, conjecture, etc., I’m speaking of FACTS, evidence, court transcripts, etc. I am 1000% sure of Michael’s innocence or else I wouldn’t be on this forum or any where else defending. In over 35++ years,I have seen NOTHING that would prove otherwise.

FTR, why should fans have to accept and allow this negative crap to flourish and just skip over or act as if it doesn’t exist. Yes, we are all adults and that is the very reason that RATIONAL adults are expressing our disdain for the “Oh it’s OK to allow this type of discussion because after all its only Michael Jackson” type of mentality. Can you imagine fans accepting that type of rhetoric about David Bowie or Elvis Presley. Hell no, they wouldn’t accept it and neither would the people defending THIS thread.
Finally, why allow a “fan” to start a disrespectful topic when we would jump all over a “hater” for saying or doing same thing%? HYPOCRISY in full view!

Let me add that I appreciate Gaz and his dedication to this forum. IMO, it is the BEST FAN FORUM on the web. None of the other artists’ forums compare with this one. Therefore, Stop putting words in our mouths. Just because we disagree with THIS topic doesn’t mean that we don’t appreciate the forum or the rules. That’s disingenuous and manipulative. Btw, what does $$ or “free” have to do with the debate on this thread? This is NOT about this FORUM, it is about this THREAD. Let’s not get off topic!
 
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somewhereinthedark;4294817 said:
EXACTLY, NO OTHER ARTIST FAN FORUM WOULD ALLOW THIS DISRESPECT!! Why should MJ fans just have to sit back and ACCEPT this type of thread? Seriously, we are the only fandom who act as if we have the RIGHT to ALLOW a person to just post whatever they feel like saying about Michael, although it is insulting to him and his legacy. It is NOT alright for this type of thread to be allowed when a “hater” can easily join the discussion and expand on negativity.

Michael had to endure this type of crap when he was alive from “haters”, why should a FAN forum permeate that kind of crap by acting as if it is “objective” discussion. This is the very reason that several of my family members don’t come to this forum much anymore. They don’t like how some think that it is perfectly alright to allow this kind of divisive, dispectful kind of thread. Of course, we can SKIP the thread and not join in the discussion, but, why that type of NEGATIVE narrative anyway? The bottomline is would YOU or any of us want someone doing YOU like that? I know I wouldn’t. Sometimes, SOME of the fans act as if Michael is/was not even human and that he didn’t/doesn’t deserve respect. I don’t give a @#$& if this is a discussion forum, SOME THINGS should not be allowed. I am truly disappointed that this is even under debate. It is repulsive to ask such a question in a fan forum, when WE fight so hard for Michael and his 100% INNOCENCE.
Finally, why allow a “fan” to start a disrespectful topic when we would jump all over a “hater” for saying or doing same thing%? HYPOCRISY in full view!
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Just because this is a fan-site, it doesn't mean we have to love everything Michael says or does, we can have discussions about things, it's not a crime. I was merely painting a "what if" scenario and how i would react if it came to be true and i thought it would be interesting to ask other fans how they would feel in a purely IMAGINARY scenario. It's not disrespectful to ask questions about this topic, after all, as MJ fans it's something we are going to have to live with so deal with it. In life he had B.S. from this and it continues in death, there is no escaping it, as fans we just simply have to live with these allegations and that's all they are. I AM NOT apologizing for making this thread, if you feel offended by it then that is your prerogative, not mine, i didn't make this thread to start arguments and bicker at who's a fan or who isn't. If you don't like it, don't read it.
 
The bottom line is that this thread is not going to be closed just because some people don't like it. And no amount of bitching will change that, so I suggest you relax and go look at some threads that you actually enjoy.
 
Anna;4294816 said:
Bear these things in mind when you start feeling entitled.
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OK, Anna, I know you and I rarely agree on anything, yet I never disrespected you as a person. But calling me entitled is disrespectful towards me. Not that I personally care what anyone thinks of me. In fact, call me whatever you want. But the same rules should apply to everyone, including admins.

And yes, I am one of the few who donate because I am glad that Gaz provides this service. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything that’s going on here, and swallow everything without the right to express my own opinion about it. This has nothing whatsoever to do with “entitlement”.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic, and I already said I acknowledge that the rule is what it is.
 
ScreenOrigami;4294823 said:
OK, Anna, I know you and I rarely agree on anything, yet I never disrespected you as a person. But calling me entitled is disrespectful towards me. Not that I personally care what anyone thinks of me. In fact, call me whatever you want. But the same rules should apply to everyone, including admins.

And yes, I am one of the few who donate because I am glad that Gaz provides this service. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything that’s going on here, and swallow everything without the right to express my own opinion about it. This has nothing whatsoever to do with “entitlement”.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic, and I already said I acknowledge that the rule is what it is.
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You can disagree with how it's run all you want, I don't care. But anyone who thinks this forum should be run a certain way because of their own personal feelings, all the while taking advantage of the forum that is provided to them basically for free, by someone else who has different feelings, should consider their position.
 
Thriller_MJ;4294819 said:
Just because this is a fan-site, it doesn't mean we have to love everything Michael says or does, we can have discussions about things, it's not a crime. I was merely painting a "what if" scenario and how i would react if it came to be true and i thought it would be interesting to ask other fans how they would feel in a purely IMAGINARY scenario. It's not disrespectful to ask questions about this topic, after all, as MJ fans it's something we are going to have to live with so deal with it. In life he had B.S. from this and it continues in death, there is no escaping it, as fans we just simply have to live with these allegations and that's all they are. I AM NOT apologizing for making this thread, if you feel offended by it then that is your prerogative, not mine, i didn't make this thread to start arguments and bicker at who's a fan or who isn't. If you don't like it, don't read it.
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I have never said that we have to “love” everything that Michael did. This debate is about THIS particular topic. Of course, I don’t have to LIKE this topic, and that is the very reason that I am expressing MY opinion. Let me just say if you don’t like MY OPINION, don’t read it. It was just stated that this thread is not going to be closed. That just means that we can agree to disagree on a topic. That’s really the bottomline.
 
somewhereinthedark;4294826 said:
I have never said that we have to “love” everything that Michael did. This debate is about THIS particular topic. Of course, I don’t have to LIKE this topic, and that is the very reason that I am expressing MY opinion. Let me just say if you don’t like MY OPINION, don’t read it. It was just stated that this thread is not going to be closed. That just means that we can agree to disagree on a topic. That’s really the bottomline.
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"Let me just say if you don’t like MY OPINION, don’t read it." well isn't that ironic. You come into this thread like a bull in a china shop demanding it to be closed because it is "disrespectful" nobody asked you to comment on this thread, yet here you are. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, why comment? To me it screams immaturity and "Look at me I am shouting the loudest, my opinion must be validated" No it shouldn't especially if you didn't contribute anything to the discussion therefore it makes your opinion void. Have a nice day.
 
Thriller_MJ;4294827 said:
"Let me just say if you don’t like MY OPINION, don’t read it." well isn't that ironic. You come into this thread like a bull in a china shop demanding it to be closed because it is "disrespectful" nobody asked you to comment on this thread, yet here you are. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, why comment? To me it screams immaturity and "Look at me I am shouting the loudest, my opinion must be validated" No it shouldn't especially if you didn't contribute anything to the discussion therefore it makes your opinion void. Have a nice day.
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Sweetie, the irony and hypocrisy alert is blaring from you. Maybe you are not mature enough to handle disagreement. My contribution to this thread is that your question is invalid, disrespectful and negative. That’s just the opinion of me and others. You can’t allow your sensitivity and lack of maturity to get the best of you. People are going to DISAGREE with you. Get used to it. That’s life. Develop a “rhinoceros skin” and take your hits. Go on and live your young life and not allow people to throw you off your course. Have a good life, I am going to. Take care, Sweetie. You don’t have to respond, unless you feel that it is absolutely necessary. Bye.
 
somewhereinthedark;4294829 said:
Sweetie, the irony and hypocrisy alert is blaring from you. Maybe you are not mature enough to handle disagreement. My contribution to this thread is that your question is invalid, disrespectful and negative. That’s just the opinion of me and others. You can’t allow your sensitivity and lack of maturity to get the best of you. People are going to DISAGREE with you. Get used to it. That’s life. Develop a “rhinoceros skin” and take your hits. Go on and live your young life and not allow people to throw you off your course. Have a good life, I am going to. Take care, Sweetie. You don’t have to respond, unless you feel that it is absolutely necessary. Bye.
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How on earth am i being hypocritical?

"Take care, Sweetie. You don’t have to respond, unless you feel that it is absolutely necessary. Bye. " Don't try to manipulate me either, that says so much more about you and your lack of maturity and intelligence to have a discussion about a sensitive topic. Run along and play with the other children and leave proper discussions to adults who can accept a difference of opinion. Your lack of self awareness is astonishing, how old are you, 12? You were the one that caused this thread to de-rail, if you actually read through the pages you can see for yourself that people were actually having a discussion about it. Think before you speak in future and don't try to de-rail anybody elses topics just because YOU don't like it. Grow up
 
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Thriller_MJ said:
i thought it would be interesting to ask other fans how they would feel in a purely IMAGINARY scenario
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Exactly, it's an imaginary scenario (and a quite insulting one), so what's the point in linking it to MJ specifically? The topic in general (how to handle otherwise great artists if it turns out they committed crimes) could be a starting point for an interesting debate, but placing a specific (on top of that: falsely accused with the crime in question IRL) person in such scenario is indeed disrespectful. MJ was a human being, not an object for case studies.

I understand you meant well, but I think you could consider the concerns raised here too. MJ was so successfully dehumanised that even we fans forget sometimes he was a person after all. I think we could be more cautious about that and provide MJ with the respect he's usually denied (it has nothing to do with "loving everything he says or does", just basic decency towards others).

Having said that, I don't want the topic closed (it could be just avoided) or the rules questioned, and I very much appreciate the work of the moderators in helping run the site. :flowers:

But I also think some things mentioned here are worth considering, especially as MJ isn't just your average popstar (unfortunately), so we also have to be more cautious than the average music lovers. We could also respect the fact that fans often come here for comfort after facing some anti-MJ incident, or question whether this is the image we want to show to outsiders. I don't think all this should be managed through rules or moderation though, but we as members could be perhaps more responsible a bit.

JichaelMackson said:
I don't know. I still love many Polanski films
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I think it's a bit different, films are most of the time team projects, and even though directors are crucial to the final project, there are also several other important contributors: actors, composers, cinematographers, screenwriters, etc. And even though films are often created from personal motivation too, by the time they reach the audience this personal link is much weaker due to the many other contributors and to the medium itself (I hope I'm making sense here :D).
 
ozemouze said:
Exactly, it's an imaginary scenario (and a quite insulting one), so what's the point in linking it to MJ specifically? The topic in general (how to handle otherwise great artists if it turns out they committed crimes) could be a starting point for an interesting debate, but placing a specific (on top of that: falsely accused with the crime in question IRL) person in such scenario is indeed disrespectful. MJ was a human being, not an object for case studies.

I understand you meant well, but I think you could consider the concerns raised here too. MJ was so successfully dehumanised that even we fans forget sometimes he was a person after all. I think we could be more cautious about that and provide MJ with the respect he's usually denied (it has nothing to do with "loving everything he says or does", just basic decency towards others).

Having said that, I don't want the topic closed (it could be just avoided) or the rules questioned, and I very much appreciate the work of the moderators in helping run the site. :flowers:

But I also think some things mentioned here are worth considering, especially as MJ isn't just your average popstar (unfortunately), so we also have to be more cautious than the average music lovers. We could also respect the fact that fans often come here for comfort after facing some anti-MJ incident, or question whether this is the image we want to show to outsiders. I don't think all this should be managed through rules or moderation though, but we as members could be perhaps more responsible a bit.



I think it's a bit different, films are are most of the time team projects, and even though directors are crucial to the final project, there are also several other important contributors: actors, composers, cinematographers, screenwriters, etc. And even though films are often created from personal motivation too, by the time they reach the audience this personal link is much weaker due to the many other contributors and to the medium itself (I hope I'm making sense here :D).
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I agree with what you are saying especially "But I also think some things mentioned here are worth considering, especially as MJ isn't just your average popstar (unfortunately), so we also have to be more cautious than the average music lovers" Thats what i was trying to get at when I said Michael wasn't just your average pop star who led an average life. I probably could have worded that better in my opining post but ultimately that what i was trying to say.
 
Gaz isn't suppressing these kinds of discussions, so you guys need to just respectfully disagree and move on. Don't try to stifle or shame each other. Me and Mikky are the only ones on this forum who actually have to look at these threads. It is totally optional for the rest of you, so stop winding yourselves up and just leave them alone if they get to you.
 
“Exactly, it’s an imaginary scenario(and a quite insulting one), so what’s the point in linking it to MJ specifically”? Ozemouze I like your mature and rational approach to this thread. You make a lot of sense. Why attach Michael to this scenario when every fan KNOWS what we have been fighting against this year and in my case for WELL OVER 35 years. Thank you for putting it in perspective. Lots of respect!
 
Looking back at this thread, yeah I agree. Michael did a lot of things in his life some of us don't agree with and i don't think that make us less of a fan if we don't agree with everything he said and did. but it's 100% official that he is innocent.

so i'm gonna ignore this thread.

peace and blessings.
 
If mj did in fact molest children I would not be a fan
 
ScreenOrigami;4294644 said:
Some body language experts have analyzed a couple of his interviews, and they came to the conclusion that he was telling the truth all the time with only one or two possible exceptions. There’s a book called “Behind The Mask: What Michael Jackson's Body Language Told The World” that I can only recommend to everyone who has doubts. :)
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Where can I find that book?
 
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