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How Do YOU Measure MJ's Success?

mello1

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I've been thinking about this for a while and with a possible MJ project coming down the pipeline, I think that it's appropriate to have this discussion now.

I was listening to Invincible last night and I was thinking how well made and well produced that project was. And I know that there are many fans and members who didn't like that project. Yet for me, it measured up to the music standard we expect for MJ to give.

So that got me thinking. And here's the question:

How do you really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to you: to have a quality project and new music from the King, or that whatever he releases sells 10 - 20 million units?

Oh and you can't say both. You have to choose one and ya can't say 'other'.

Let's discuss this. Let's get into this. I will share my thoughts later.
 
How do you really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to you: to have a quality project and new music from the King, or that whatever he releases sells 10 - 20 million units?
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well normally selling that amount means its quality. most fans like what mj does. theres prob very few songs that fans would say they dont actually like. personally to me mj having success among the massses is the most important thing to me. if he sells big numbers its because ppl like the music so id find it very hard to believe that if mj sold that amount i wouldnt like the music. so imo you wouldnt have one thing and not the other. if that makes sense lol. after everything that mj has gone through i want him to have success. to feck the media off and so his legacy doesnt finish with a "flop and the trial. the pride the fans felt when history was so big in europe and the pride in seeing what earthsong (for eg) did i nthe UK after everything that happened in 93 was a joy
to see. thats what matters to me.

the word success.imo doest equate to someones personal taste and whether they like the music. success is sales chart positions etc
 
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it's all about substance (or what my perception of it is anyway) - and i actually have to disagree with you on Invincible (Jerkins/Riley) based on production merit alone.

then again commercial success also means more input from all parties involved and allow Mike to promote/ride on its success for our benefit in the short run.

it's a fine balance and seems to be like a near-impossible one today but i'd always go for quality over here and now cheap shots.
 
It would be very sad if everybody would buy the album and I would dislike it. So, if I had to decide I personally would prefer great music. There is enough crap played on the radio. No doubt this new album will have high quality (if not, we will not hear one good new song for a long long time)...
 
Quality music, always, ALWAYS. If he sells 10 million, good for him, but quality music lasts forever.
 
In a short term I'd say mass sales, but as TillitsGone said at the end of the day the music lasts forever and that's what should matter.

Unfortunately people still diss on great albums purely based on sales even when they're great which is sad; it kills me when people say Michael's work after Bad was mediocre, even though Dangerous sold a s**tload of copies (and IMO Dangerous is fantastic thank u very much)...so again both sides of the coin are important to secure an artist's legacy.

...Sooooo this is a very complicated and tricky subject but I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMHO quality comes first, the quality of an album speaks for itself it doesn't need huge numbers to be recognized at least that is how it is for me.
 
If we're talking about new album/music vs. a guaranteed 10-20 million sale of his old music through some sort of release, then I'll go with new music.

If we're talking about new music either way, and just discussing "would you rather quality of music or quantity of sales?", then I won't lie: I'd prefer a "good" album that sells 10-20 more than a "great" album that is a commercial disappointment. Just 'cause I think he deserves it a lot. Those numbers are fairly improbable by today's standards, aren't they? So yeah, if they were somehow magically guaranteed, I'd take it.

Though, if he did somehow sell that much, the music would probably be great anyway, and the answer would end up being "both," but since we can't use that here...

It's also worth mentioning that fans shouldn't have their expectations on numbers like 10-20, because again, they are highly improbable by today's standards. Be ecstatic if that happens, but at the same time, don't put it on MJ as something you'll be "disappointed" if it doesn't happen. I imagine crap like that weighs in on him a lot.
 
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OK, am I wrong for saying both? I just think that as a popular artist, you HAVE to know how to balance that line between quality music & creativity, and the business side of it--which is record sales. You can have great music if you want to, but if you don't promote it and people don't want to buy it, then you're screwed.

And on the flip side, you can have a soulja boy that sells millions of downloads and ringtones, but will anyone be buying his crap in five years? No.

Honestly, I do care if his new album sells or not. That's just what you do as a "pop" artist--you sell records. And if it flops, that's never good. But, if it's a great album that people just didn't buy (eh hem, like Invincible, yes I said it), then I'd just be happy to have great new music from Michael. :D
 
mello1 said:
I've been thinking about this for a while and with a possible MJ project coming down the pipeline, I think that it's appropriate to have this discussion now.

I was listening to Invincible last night and I was thinking how well made and well produced that project was. And I know that there are many fans and members who didn't like that project. Yet for me, it measured up to the music standard we expect for MJ to give.

So that got me thinking. And here's the question:

How do you really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to you: to have a quality project and new music from the King, or that whatever he releases sells 10 - 20 million units?

Oh and you can't say both. You have to choose one and ya can't say 'other'.

Let's discuss this. Let's get into this. I will share my thoughts later.
Click to expand...

How do I really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to me: to have a quality project...

Why? Mr.Jackson creates music that has that staying power, his albums/cd's compositions that are selected for any one of his projects are selected with the utmost care...There are not just one or two songs on a album/cd that are excellent/good...

It's definately the quality...babe...the quality, If the quality is there the quanity will follow..!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
well normally selling that amount means its quality. most fans like what mj does. theres prob very few songs that fans would say they dont actually like. personally to me mj having success among the massses is the most important thing to me. if he sells big numbers its because ppl like the music so id find it very hard to believe that if mj sold that amount i wouldnt like the music. so imo you wouldnt have one thing and not the other. if that makes sense lol. after everything that mj has gone through i want him to have success. to feck the media off and so his legacy doesnt finish with a "flop and the trial. the pride the fans felt when history was so big in europe and the pride in seeing what earthsong (for eg) did i nthe UK after everything that happened in 93 was a joy
to see. thats what matters to me.

the word success.imo doest equate to someones personal taste and whether they like the music. success is sales chart positions etc
Click to expand...
Thanks for being honest!
 
daphnieas said:
In a short term I'd say mass sales, but as TillitsGone said at the end of the day the music lasts forever and that's what should matter.

Unfortunately people still diss on great albums purely based on sales even when they're great which is sad; it kills me when people say Michael's work after Bad was mediocre, even though Dangerous sold a s**tload of copies (and IMO Dangerous is fantastic thank u very much)...so again both sides of the coin are important to secure an artist's legacy.

...Sooooo this is a very complicated and tricky subject but I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMHO quality comes first, the quality of an album speaks for itself it doesn't need huge numbers to be recognized at least that is how it is for me.
Click to expand...
And that's exactly why I made this a topic for today. Someone posted a topic in the Music thread about Lil Wayne selling a million copies of his new CD. Does his selling a lot of records make that record a good one?

You can see how this debate can cut both ways.... :scratch:

If MJ releases a project that doesn't sell, does that mean that it's no good?
 
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This is a no-brainer!. it is obviously - QUALITY! Michael is all about the quality. That is why he works as hard as he does. Just because the buying public doesn't recognize quality when they see it anymore, doesn't mean he can't or won't produce it. I think that is why people have such an anticpation for Mike to hurry back with a new product, they want quality again. It was like back when video recorders were the "in thing". Sony came out with a better quality product which was Beta but the buying public didn't always want quality, they wanted cheap so everyone bought VHS and it became the most popular. Now they are both obsolete but if you understand my point, most people don't require quality and don't make it a priority in their lives. The just want the fast food, the here and now, what is ready available because they are too lazy, too cheap and too impatient to wait on and spend money on quality. Quality takes time to get to. That is why we are still waiting. We know quality products that Michael can produce and that is why we all are waiting with baited breath. Michael knows this which is why when he finally does release a product or products, the buying public will snap it up because it will be something "rare" and they don't know when they will get anything like it again. It will be so different to what they are getting now that it will be 1983 all over again (i hope).

Ticie,
The JACKSONOLOGIST
 
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Grand Master S said:
If we're talking about new album/music vs. a guaranteed 10-20 million sale of his old music through some sort of release, then I'll go with new music.

If we're talking about new music either way, and just discussing "would you rather quality of music or quantity of sales?", then I won't lie: I'd prefer a "good" album that sells 10-20 more than a "great" album that is a commercial disappointment. Just 'cause I think he deserves it a lot. Those numbers are fairly improbable by today's standards, aren't they? So yeah, if they were somehow magically guaranteed, I'd take it.

Though, if he did somehow sell that much, the music would probably be great anyway, and the answer would end up being "both," but since we can't use that here...

It's also worth mentioning that fans shouldn't have their expectations on numbers like 10-20, because again, they are highly improbable by today's standards. Be ecstatic if that happens, but at the same time, don't put it on MJ as something you'll be "disappointed" if it doesn't happen. I imagine crap like that weighs in on him a lot.
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And this is the main reason why I started this topic. What is more meaningful to YOU with respect to Michael's success.

Thanks for your input!
 
Sdeidjs said:
How do I really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to me: to have a quality project...

Why? Mr.Jackson creates music that has that staying power, his albums/cd's compositions that are selected for any one of his projects are selected with the utmost care...There are not just one or two songs on a album/cd that are excellent/good...

It's definately the quality...babe...the quality, If the quality is there the quanity will follow..!
Click to expand...
Love that last line. :)
I agree.
 
mello1 said:
And that's exactly why I made this a topic for today. Someone posted a topic in the Music thread about Lil Wayne selling a million copies of his new CD. Does his selling a lot of records make that record a good one?

You can see how this debate can cut both ways.... :scratch:

If MJ releases a project that doesn't sell, does that mean that it's no good?
Click to expand...

No it does not! Not to me at least.
As you said Vince is one heck of an album...oh yeah so it didn't sold 30 mil only 10 mil, so friggin what? The album is still a great album. And most people who did bought it and took the time to listen to it can agree even if it's just up to a certain point.

We can't really rely on the media to recognize how great Vince was, because all they see is that it didn't sold as much as the previous albums; but then again we can't rely on the media to recognize anything when it comes to Michael, so at this point what other people or the media says shouldn't really matter to us fans, because we know better.
 
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THE JACKSONOLOGIST said:
This is a no-brainer!. it is obviously - QUALITY!
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Not necessarily to some peeps. I don't think it's a stretch to say that deep down inside, all of us want MJ to come out with this slamming new CD that sells a zillion copies, wins a ton of awards and people, even his critics have to bow down at his feet and kiss his narrow booty! :tease:

But back in the real, the industry has changed and MJ has to constantly fight image issues. Outside forces are determined to have a say in who is a commercial success and who is not. I think that's why we had the HMH leak in the way that we did to bypass those bloggers who love to hate on the man so that the song will have a legitimate chance.
 
THE JACKSONOLOGIST said:
This is a no-brainer!. it is obviously - QUALITY! Michael is all about the quality. That is why he works as hard as he does. Just because the buying public doesn't recognize quality when they see it anymore, doesn't mean he can't or won't produce it. I think that is why people have such an anticpation for Mike to hurry back with a new product, they want quality again. It was like back when video recorders were the "in thing". Sony came out with a better quality product which was Beta but the buying public didn't always want quality, they wanted cheap so everyone bought VHS and it became the most popular. Now they are both obsolete but if you understand my point, most people don't require quality and don't make it a priority in their lives. The just want the fast food, the here and now, what is ready available because they are too lazy, too cheap and too impatient to wait on and spend money on quality. Quality takes time to get to. That is why we are still waiting. We know quality products that Michael can produce and that is why we all are waiting with baited breath. Michael knows this which is why when he finally does release a product or products, the buying public will snap it up because it will be something "rare" and they don't know when they will get anything like it again. It will be so different to what they are getting now that it will be 1983 all over again (i hope).

Ticie,
The JACKSONOLOGIST
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Oh you went back and added more to this! Thanks! :punk:

We shall see what happens.
 
mello1 said:
I don't think it's a stretch to say that deep down inside, all of us want MJ to come out with this slamming new CD that sells a zillion copies, wins a ton of awards and people, even his critics have to bow down at his feet and kiss his narrow booty!
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having become mainly a fan of current artists that have virtually made no dent whatsoever in the mainstream, i'd truly prefer to get more 'timeless' and creative music from my idol than to see brief success in the short run.

but Michael has always been BIG and no doub he'll try to be with this album. and with that, his Ebony interview has really put a lasting smile on me where he talks about being innovative and experirmental and just creativeness overall.

hope you can find the balance, Mike.
 
in my whole-hearted opinion, if you take Hold My Hand as an example. Its a great song, now I know its mainly akons, but it is great and as everyone has seen all the polls its got 85-95% in its favour, which means you can see it will sell alot aswell as it being a great song. Now I realise that its just one song and not a whole album. But that's not purely michaels work, and we know what michael can do when it is. So IMHO michael deserves to be selling more, and having good music rather than quality and poorer sales, but remember this is Michael Jackson. The King Of Pop. We all know what he can do. Just wait, that's all I can say.
 
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If I can only have one or the other I would pick good quality music. At the end of the day I want to be able to enjoy the new music. If it transpires that the album is not a big mainstream success, then I will sit back and enjoy the music and laugh at the idiots who wouldn't recognize good music if it moonwalked naked in front of them. As others have already said: we can't rely on the media to recognize MJ's talent or success - they already don't acknowledge anything after Thriller even though the post-Thriller albums sold phenomenal numbers. Will they acknowledge him if the new album sells 20 million copies?

Having said all of that, it is true that fans (including myself) want to see MJ being a massive success again. Because he deserves it, because others shouldn't have the last say in HIStory and yes we want to rub it in the haters' faces and be all arrogant and proud lol.

So yeah, we want both and with MJ anything is possible...but if we really can only have one option, I'll still go with quality.
 
quality music. don't wanna any "lil wayne sold 1 million copies in a week" crap.

plus,it's michael.

he could sing heavy metal and it'd still sell.
 
Quality for me. I love music and I buy a lot of it. Quality is kind of hard to find these days. But looking at album charts in the last 2 yeasr, they are up again as opposed to singles. That is largely of course due to the internet, downloads and so forth. But music buyers are looking for good music. You notice longevity artists selling well. And new music that is a success is very retro. People are looking for quality more than ever. And I have heard radio disc jockeys talking on that subject as well as others. You hear people talking about missing Michael more nowadays as well. They miss the enjoyment and the quality, the class. If you make a quality album it can sell well. They don't sell as in the high figures as they did 20 years ago, it is a different industry today.

Fans need to be careful in what they want because they maybe sorely dissappointed. Thriller was a different time and era. You need to be real on how the industry is today. But you never know Michael could surprise them all. LOL!

I agree with your thoughts on Invincible Mello. I feel the same way about it. That album sold around 11 million worldwide, that is a huge success for any artist today. If Michael can sell that, then that would be huge accomplishment.

But you can guess as soon as Michael releases an album if it doesn't sell 50 million they will have the same old comment in their articles, flop compared to Thriller, not selling as he did before. LOL! It will be something just to write by the critics. Ridiculous kind of crap to fill space. I mean it will be so predictable.

If you have a good quality album, some good promotion. Not over done, less is more. I hate over exposure. Some great videos, as they are seriously lacking these days too, you can have a great success.
 
I think it really depends on the person. Maybe the public will say his success is measured in the millions he makes, but I say it's the quality. Some songs even recently are, how do I put it lightly...crappy? And they're still number one? Sheesh...
I guess that I made my choice because I know what Michael has accomplished, and it's not the money, it's the fan's love for his songs because they are so geniusly composed.

-n3v3rland :D
 
It's not all ONE thing.. it's all of his ground breaking accompishments in sales, videos, concerts, dance, TV, sponsorships, productions, business, PR, and what he did with them all..

AMAZING in so many ways.
 
mello1 said:
I've been thinking about this for a while and with a possible MJ project coming down the pipeline, I think that it's appropriate to have this discussion now.

I was listening to Invincible last night and I was thinking how well made and well produced that project was. And I know that there are many fans and members who didn't like that project. Yet for me, it measured up to the music standard we expect for MJ to give.

So that got me thinking. And here's the question:

How do you really measure Michael Jackson's success? What's more important to you: to have a quality project and new music from the King, or that whatever he releases sells 10 - 20 million units?

Oh and you can't say both. You have to choose one and ya can't say 'other'.

Let's discuss this. Let's get into this. I will share my thoughts later.
Click to expand...

That's a good question mello. For me, it's very simple. To have a quality project and new music from the King. That's all that matters to me. Artistic success is always more important then commercial. Now with that said, I would really like for Michael's project to also be commercially successful, for his sake, because I want him to feel accepted and confident. Because that's always been a problem for him, I think, fear of rejection and a lack of self-confiedence if he doesn't recieve acceptance.
 
I said that I would put my :2cents: in this.

I posted this thread because I have seen how, on another fanclub forum (not MJ) that I frequent the membership in general got bummed out because the artist didn't have the kind of commerical success that they thought was warrented. When the artists' first single dropped, peeps LOVED IT. But then it didn't take off on radio. Then the CD dropped. Peeps LOVED IT. But then it didn't sell like projects in the past.

So next thing ya know, peeps were blaming radio, blaming the record company and then they blamed the artist for not promoting it in the way 'they' thought it should have been promoted. The reality being that beyond the fanbase, no one was really feeling the project.

There have been numerous discussions about MJ's Invincible project with a lot of debate over whether it was a good project or not. I wonder sometimes if Invincible had sold 30 million instead of the 10 mil it did would there have been a debate over it.

There are artists who in their heyday, sold a lot of CDs, but now hardly ever chart whose music I enjoy as much as the hits that were all over the charts at their peak. If I have an artists' music, I usually have a collection of their music because I like their style. It suits me and I buy it and support the artist.

I know that peeps want to be able to stick it to all of the critics and haters of MJ. Afterall, nothing speaks louder and shuts critics down like success.

For me personally, quality is my standard, not commercial success. I do hope that MJ has all of the success in the future that he wants. But if for some reason it doesn't happen that way, it will be okay by me.
 
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