How are Jehovah's Witnesses perceived in your country?

[Lucilla]

I use to see a lot more JWs but not so much any more. I just tell them Im Chrsitian and alread have my faith
and take one of their booklets to read. They are always very nice but I guess they can seem a bother at times.
Im not offended by them. I feel The are trying to do what they feel is righ and good.


Michael wrote about his experience and seemed to enjoy visiting homes
and teaching Gods word to others. He was very into his faith

Just to interject a little humour -
I laughed so hard when i saw this Im sure he also experienced the same -

OH MY GEEZZZ! :lol:

And yes, maybe I feel some sort of sympathy for them because I can't stop thinking "wow, to think MJ actually did this"
And I'm not offended by them either. I don't think at all they are people who think you're stupid for not believing in what they believe.
I may be naive but I believe they do this simply to safe souls, I don't see that as harassing.

 

[JamesDean]

Here, they are not legally a sect, but many people think they are, and they are not very popular. One reason is door to door , the other reason is the "social exclusion" : not celebrating birthdays, or christmas, things like that.
For example, Christmas here is a not really a religious holiday anymore for most people, it's a family / friends gathering. A time to get together, offer gifts, etc.. that a lot of people celebrate, even if they are not practising catholics.

Not attending is seen by most people as something very sad, self exclusion, even selfish.

I saw it happen in a friends family, in which 2 persons became JW, and stopped attending birthday celebrations, christmas, etc.. The rest of the family doesn't accept it, they feel excluded, and are really sad about it. It has created a sort of rift within that family. They feel, and I agree with that, that a religion should not come betwen you and your friends or family. If it does, then things are going too far.

My aunt and uncle are Jehovahs witnesses, (and my mother a muslim for that matter) but we do have family celebrations and easter dinners at my grandmothers. but they have nothing to do with religion. we have the easter dinner a month or a week before the rest of the country, the invite is for the whole family to meet (and not an invite for easter) the dinner is traditional danish easter dinner, but we do not meet because its a holy time - NO we meet because we want us all to be together. In our family we have gatherrings to enjoy the family and to meet, never because its christian holidays (thought some of the invites are very close to holidays and the menues are alike) but what we all agree on with all our different religions (or lack of religion) is: We, as a family shall remember to meet, take care and be there for eachother - thats a fact that all religions embrace and we embrace love, no religion disagrees with that

 

[Severus Snape]

I wouldn't mind that one. He could leave whatever he wanted at my doorstep [just please nothing I would mistake as a threat from the mob, lol], and he could talk to me about what-uh-verrrrrr...

 

[CaptainEoLove85]

They're mostly seen as a nuisance. I don't agree with pushing your beliefs on anyone. If people want to look into it, they'd probably do that on their own, rather then let random strangers explain it to them. May have been different before the internet age though where you have access to anything you want to learn about. I admit, I feel more sympathetic about them once I learned Michael was a Jehovah's Witness. Yeah, if he stopped by my door (I'd probably see through his disguise) I'd have no problem inviting him in and having a long chat. By the end of our discussion he'll definitely have converted me to something.

 

[Severus Snape]

They're mostly seen as a nuisance. I don't agree with pushing your beliefs on anyone. If people want to look into it, they'd probably do that on their own, rather then let random strangers explain it to them. May have been different before the internet age though where you have access to anything you want to learn about. I admit, I feel more sympathetic about them once I learned Michael was a Jehovah's Witness. Yeah, if he stopped by my door (I'd probably see through his disguise) I'd have no problem inviting him in and having a long chat. By the end of our discussion he'll definitely have converted me to something.

Basically, yeah, the fact they (religious people in general, since JW are not the only ones who go door-to-door) think they have the right to come and talk to me about their beliefs without my inquiring on my property is annoying in itself. If I had any interest in it, I would seek their church out. I think the whole concept of going door-to-door trying to recruit/solicit people is invasive, especially with something like belief/religion/philosophy. Hell, I get annoyed when girl scouts or Avon people knock on my door and try to sell me stuff, but at least neither the Girl Scouts nor Avon ladies have suggested I will join a nice barbecue party upon my departure from this Earth (evangelicals) or that I'm somehow "not doing it right" when it comes to life. =P

Every day, I understand the people with the "beware of dog" signs more and more, lol.

And yes, that specific JW may convince me to give up a few things.

 

[T.N.A.]

^^Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!

PS: The picture of the girl from your avatar is really pretty.

 

[addictMJJ]

bonjours everyone!
I wanted just to explain why the witnesses of Jehovah make door has door considering it is what apparently disturbs you more with them and well will know that it is a duty which normally falls has any Christian who follows what is known as in the bible bus Jesus himself said as a Mathieu chapter 24 and verse 14:
Quotation:
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited ground, in testimony for all the nations; and then the end” and
also in Matthieu 28:19 will come - 20:

Quotation:
“Thus Go and make disciples of people among all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, their teacher to observe all that I ordered you. And, see, I am with you the every day until the completion of the system of things.”

What Michael did besides during years (I does not learn you anything)

For my part in France the government does not recognize any religions and secularity is of setting.
As regards the inhabitants I think that they are accustomed has to see Jw coming on their premises and some are listen and are curious about the message which is delivered to them when has D " different they indifferent or are aggravated .................with L.O.V.E

 

[HIStory]

Basically, yeah, the fact they (religious people in general, since JW are not the only ones who go door-to-door) think they have the right to come and talk to me about their beliefs without my inquiring on my property is annoying in itself. If I had any interest in it, I would seek their church out. I think the whole concept of going door-to-door trying to recruit/solicit people is invasive, especially with something like belief/religion/philosophy. Hell, I get annoyed when girl scouts or Avon people knock on my door and try to sell me stuff, but at least neither the Girl Scouts nor Avon ladies have suggested I will join a nice barbecue party upon my departure from this Earth (evangelicals) or that I'm somehow "not doing it right" when it comes to life. =P

Every day, I understand the people with the "beware of dog" signs more and more, lol.

And yes, that specific JW may convince me to give up a few things.

This.

 

[MJJ7777]

Well if the problem is that you don't want them to come to your door, you can tell them and they will note never to come back...that is how its usually and supposed to be handled.

If you're hiding and you won't open the door they will assume you aren't home and feel obligated to try again just to make sure that in sharing this message they won't miss one precious life, the fact that they have returned more than once shows you a glimpse of just how valuable that one door, that one life is to them...but yeah if it really bothers you , you should tell them face to face and they will know to wash their hands clean knowing they fulfilled their end of the assignment. It ends there and its really up to you after that point wether you decide to accept it or not, no one should make that decision for you nor force you to.

What they are doing is simply carrying out one of the most important commands in the New Testament and as followers of Christ, they are obligated to carry his assignment out really out of love for their neighbors,just as Jesus did and commanded his followers to continue doing...they could be out doing other things like being concerned about their own little lives and problems and doing fun activities instead of walking the hot sun or cold weather just to get a million doors slammed in their faces but hey its okay lol.

If I were an outsider of the faith, I , for one, would be a happy citizen to know that the one person that used their time to knock on my door and countless others on that particular morning or evening with the sole purpose of sharing their faith and hope for a better future,however inconvenient, is one less I have to worry about using their time to commit crime and hurt others.

Again if it bothers you or anyone else for that matter...Just let them know face to face, they won't bite lol.

 

[HIStory]

bonjours everyone!
I wanted just to explain why the witnesses of Jehovah make door has door considering it is what apparently disturbs you more with them and well will know that it is a duty which normally falls has any Christian who follows what is known as in the bible bus Jesus himself said as a Mathieu chapter 24 and verse 14:
Quotation:
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited ground, in testimony for all the nations; and then the end” and
also in Matthieu 28:19 will come - 20:

Quotation:
“Thus Go and make disciples of people among all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit, their teacher to observe all that I ordered you. And, see, I am with you the every day until the completion of the system of things.”

What Michael did besides during years (I does not learn you anything)

For my part in France the government does not recognize any religions and secularity is of setting.
As regards the inhabitants I think that they are accustomed has to see Jw coming on their premises and some are listen and are curious about the message which is delivered to them when has D " different they indifferent or are aggravated .................with L.O.V.E

While the Bible is authority for Christians and JWs, it is not for other people. I understand that they only do what their Bible orders them to do, but that's their problem. I still consider this behaviour invasive, no matter if it's the Bible that orders them to do it. It is invasive to knock on the doors of strangers telling them they are sinners, sorry.

My experience with JWs was in a bus stop about a year ago. I was reading waiting for the bus and there came a JWs woman and she saw I was busy with something else (reading), yet she started to proselytize. I made it clear to her that I'm not interested and I want to keep reading on my book, but she would not leave me alone. I regard this as invasive, no matter what the Bible says to them. Of course, I also had the usual door-to-door experience with JWs.

 

[MJJ7777]

While the Bible is authority for Christians and JWs, it is not for other people. I understand that they only do what their Bible orders them to do, but that's their problem. I still consider this behaviour invasive, no matter if it's the Bible that orders them to do it. It is invasive to knock on the doors of strangers telling them they are sinners, sorry.

My experience with JWs was in a bus stop about a year ago. I was reading waiting for the bus and there came a JWs woman and she saw I was busy with something else (reading), yet she started to proselytize. I made it clear to her that I'm not interested and I want to keep reading on my book, but she would not leave me alone. I regard this as invasive, no matter what the Bible says to them. Of course, I also had the usual door-to-door experience with JWs.

Hmmm...So a JW came and knocked on your door just to tell you you are a sinner? JWs know very well that we are all sinners (imperfect), including themselves so I don't know how that makes any sense really. Hmm...Trust me thats not how its done...
I'm also hearing JW's tell people they will burn in hell, problem is JWs don't believe in hell, so where is this stuff coming from??? Does one person say one thing and everyone runs off with the same phrase? Either that or you are confusing JWs with other religions.

There are alot of misconceptions and false information in the mix here and I see they will only persist in the future.
Either way I'm sure Jesus was seen as a nuisance and interruption wherever he carried his message back in his day, his followers can only expect the same if not worse. JW's have a history of being strong and resilient against taunts and persecution. Wherever they are percieved badly, well what can they do about it? That has definitely not succeeded in stopping them.
If they come across favorable responses they will be overjoyed, if they are taunted,humiliated and persecuted for the message, they will again rejoice.

Back in Nazi Germany, Unlike the Jews who had no choice but to await suffering and death, JWs were given the choice and chance to renounce their faith and Biblically based beliefs of political neutrality that stood in stark opposition to the Nazi regime's policies and orders, to escape concentration camps and death sentences and soon even Hitler realized not torture or even death could intimidate this group of people into renouncing what they believed to be right.

They were perceived unfavorably during the Nazi regime too but they knew life didn't end with Hitler and his regime and so they fought for what was RIGHT in accordance with the knowledge gained from biblical based beliefs. In spite of everything, this faith has been preserved right down to today.

Being perceived negatively is expected, don't worry for them...

 

[ginvid]

^^Very true. After I posted that Witnesses do not even believe in a burning hell, people still proceeded to post and say some Witness came up to them and said that to them which shows that they are clearly not being truthful in what they say are trying to spread their biased ideas even if it is a flat out lie. It is something any Witness comes across quite frequently. When a friend of a friend of a cousin of a brother of a sister of a grandparent of a person who is a Witness spreads something untrue and everyone else is very quick to jump on the bandwagon and continue spreading the same untruths. They persist in it even when told otherwise.

The point of the matter is, people hear what they want to hear and no matter how much you correct them, they are quite content reveling in their misinformation, exxagerating their experience, and in some cases flat out lying.

 

[Severus Snape]

Well if the problem is that you don't want them to come to your door, you can tell them and they will note never to come back...that is how its usually and supposed to be handled.

If you're hiding and you won't open the door they will assume you aren't home and feel obligated to try again just to make sure that in sharing this message they won't miss one precious life, the fact that they have returned more than once shows you a glimpse of just how valuable that one door, that one life is to them...but yeah if it really bothers you , you should tell them face to face and they will know to wash their hands clean knowing they fulfilled their end of the assignment. It ends there and its really up to you after that point wether you decide to accept it or not, no one should make that decision for you nor force you to.

What they are doing is simply carrying out one of the most important commands in the New Testament and as followers of Christ, they are obligated to carry his assignment out really out of love for their neighbors,just as Jesus did and commanded his followers to continue doing...they could be out doing other things like being concerned about their own little lives and problems and doing fun activities instead of walking the hot sun or cold weather just to get a million doors slammed in their faces but hey its okay lol.

If I were an outsider of the faith, I , for one, would be a happy citizen to know that the one person that used their time to knock on my door and countless others on that particular morning or evening with the sole purpose of sharing their faith and hope for a better future,however inconvenient, is one less I have to worry about using their time to commit crime and hurt others.

Again if it bothers you or anyone else for that matter...Just let them know face to face, they won't bite lol.

Well, the thing is... I really shouldn't have to tell them anything. Telling each visiting religious I don't care about what they have to say takes time and energy out of my day--time and energy I will never get back. I think people should be able to preach whatever they want, but keep private citizen property and time out of it. That's what a church is for--to go and preach the message of whateverulike for anyone who gives a fig to hear it. And even if you tell -one- group to never come back, another one comes, and it goes on ad infinitum. So while you may never see the one group you told never to return to the Pridelands again, others make an appearance and the whole thing goes on ad infinitum. And then there are the evangelists, who also like to go door-to-door and litter public space with tracts, etc.

I think those are the two least favourite religious people anywhere only because they really go out of their way to badger others.

Also, I'd like to add, the commandment in question was written in the times of Christ, when there was no Internet. We have the Internet now. They should modernize and preach high and low unto their virtual neighbours. The Message will reach a far larger audience there than door-to-door invasion.

 

[HIStory]

If they come across favorable responses they will be overjoyed, if they are taunted,humiliated and persecuted for the message, they will again rejoice.

Persecuted? I don't see any persecution in criticizing their proselytize tactics. To have an opposing opinion to theirs or criticize their practices is no persecution. Especially when it's they who invade me in my private space, uninvited. Religious people have a funny sense of entitlement.

 

[HIStory]

^^Very true. After I posted that Witnesses do not even believe in a burning hell, people still proceeded to post and say some Witness came up to them and said that to them which shows that they are clearly not being truthful in what they say are trying to spread their biased ideas even if it is a flat out lie. It is something any Witness comes across quite frequently. When a friend of a friend of a cousin of a brother of a sister of a grandparent of a person who is a Witness spreads something untrue and everyone else is very quick to jump on the bandwagon and continue spreading the same untruths. They persist in it even when told otherwise.

The point of the matter is, people hear what they want to hear and no matter how much you correct them, they are quite content reveling in their misinformation, exxagerating their experience, and in some cases flat out lying.

I hope you realize that I never said anything about burning in hell, so MJJ7777's argument - at least in response to my post - was a straw-man argument.

Edit: And as I scanned through this thread now I haven't seen anybody actually claiming JWs told him they will burn in hell. People brought up the issue in connection with proselytizing religious tactics in general. So careful with calling people liars.

 

[Erandi]

But let's not forget that Michael disassociated himself from the Jw back in the 80's! Wasn't it because he found it too restrictive?! ("the church's elders" were disturbed by his Thriller video at first and that was the starting point of it, I think) And wasn't he seen as an Antichrist after that? That, to me, seems like persecution. And no, it's not "burning in hell", but similar.

And, yes, I've had my usual encounter with Jw. Although I've told them on various occasions that I was not interested in what they were preaching, they've given me these magazines just "to reflect" on the facts and then...surprise! They came back to discuss it. I thought that these people seemed a bit brainwashed (as someone wrote before "they HAVE TO follow the procedure), not being able to take no for an answer.
On the other hand, I don't mind their religion and religious believes, as long as they don't have to bugger me with them. Everyone (well, mostly) is free to do what he/she wants in life, as long as it makes them happy.

 

[PoP]

The always leave pamplets in the porch of my house and it annoys me, like are they trying to convert me? That's disrepectful. If I find them at my door I just tell "I'm sorry, but with all due respect I do not appriciate anyone trying to convert me, it disrespectful to me."

 

[ginvid]

As crazy lunatics who keep bugging you...

Then again, most people in my country are hypocrites since they're religious too. They think religious people are lunatics (specifically Jehovah's Witnesses), but they're part of various other religious groups themselves.

They're all the same for me. I only dislike individuals who try to force their BS on me. I don't hate religious groups as a whole since I know people who are religious and are quite nice to talk to and hang out with, the kind of religious people who DON'T go around preaching their religion and making sure to tell me I'm going to hell and that it's their job to 'save me' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). Not sure sure how a casual chat next to the water cooler can turn into a 'you're going to hell, you need to be saved' kind of discussion (and yes, THAT did happen to me... twice already!).

I don't know, everybody's free to believe whatever then want (no matter how illogical it might be) but they should leave others alone. So I guess my point is, I don't mind religious people, as long as they don't keep harassing me with their stupid beliefs when I'm at work, at school, on the street or at home.


Let the 'I'm offended' posts commence...

The first few times, one ought to say "no, thank you" and shrug it off, yes. However, when they go out of their way to come back despite being repeatedly told not to do so in some fruitless endeavour to save you from the licking flames of Hell, (Michigan), then something a bit firmer than a "no, thank you" will be the soupe du jour at my place.

Indeed, but when their lives as a group consist of not respecting your difference from them and telling you why you're going to Hell, (Michigan) if you do not live as they do, and when they constantly meddle in government business, I think it ought to be spoken against.

With that said, I think Jehovah's Witnesses go through a lot of unnecessary persecution. Other religious groups think they're somehow better than them, when in fact they're strikingly similar, only the JW are more forthcoming in their whole door-to-door thing and littering public places with pamphlets, etc. Evangelical Christians are known for doing exactly the same, and yet they are more respected, only because there's more of them.

So in that regard I do think JW are unfairly judged.

I hope you realize that I never said anything about burning in hell, so MJJ7777's argument - at least in response to my post - was a straw-man argument.

Edit: And as I scanned through this thread now I haven't seen anybody actually claiming JWs told him they will burn in hell. People brought up the issue in connection with proselytizing religious tactics in general. So careful with calling people liars.

No one ever said you said JW's said that. The first part of MJJ7777's post was directed at you. I believe the remainder of her post was a general statement. However, those quotes above when speaking about JW's directly reference them saying they are going to hell and at the very least give that impression; hence why people like MJJLatvia and Pace,MioDolceCuore answered as such about JW's when responding to people. So yes, as I said, misinformation, exxageration, and in some cases flat out lies took place in the thread as no JW has ever said this to another person here. Anyone who tries to attribute this as being said from a JW is not being truthful. It is what it is. It is also very obvious that this is the impression that multiple people are getting from what others have said. I will admit that later on Severus put (evangelical) behind being told about burning in hell. (Thanks Severus!)

Persecuted? I don't see any persecution in criticizing their proselytize tactics. To have an opposing opinion to theirs or criticize their practices is no persecution. Especially when it's they who invade me in my private space, uninvited. Religious people have a funny sense of entitlement.

I don't think at all that MJJ7777's post was talking about your disagreeing with them as persecution. As I said above, I believe only the first part of her post was directed at you. Reading on a board is about perception. When someone feels strongly about something, it can change the perception a person will have of what you write. That happens with me all of the time (Yeah, I admit it ). Even when you think you are being clear, to an opposing viewpoint, it seems jumbled. What can we say? We try to clarify. :shrug:
JW's have been persecuted very much for what they believe. That is a fact. I believe MJJ7777 went on to talk about Nazis in Germany, etc. Very real persecution. I don't think having a different opinion in itself can be considered persecution. We understand just like anyone that people will think differently and will not sanction or agree with everything you do in life.

But let's not forget that Michael disassociated himself from the Jw back in the 80's! Wasn't it because he found it too restrictive?! ("the church's elders" were disturbed by his Thriller video at first and that was the starting point of it, I think) And wasn't he seen as an Antichrist after that? That, to me, seems like persecution. And no, it's not "burning in hell", but similar.

Who saw Michael as the Antichrist? It certainly was not any JW's. Do you think any JW's would be on this board if that was their view of him? I am not even sure where this notion came from; but, I can tell you it is false.

 

[MJJ7777]

But let's not forget that Michael disassociated himself from the Jw back in the 80's! Wasn't it because he found it too restrictive?! ("the church's elders" were disturbed by his Thriller video at first and that was the starting point of it, I think) And wasn't he seen as an Antichrist after that? That, to me, seems like persecution. And no, it's not "burning in hell", but similar.

And, yes, I've had my usual encounter with Jw. Although I've told them on various occasions that I was not interested in what they were preaching, they've given me these magazines just "to reflect" on the facts and then...surprise! They came back to discuss it. I thought that these people seemed a bit brainwashed (as someone wrote before "they HAVE TO follow the procedure), not being able to take no for an answer.
On the other hand, I don't mind their religion and religious believes, as long as they don't have to bugger me with them. Everyone (well, mostly) is free to do what he/she wants in life, as long as it makes them happy.

MJ was seen as an antichrist by JWs? Well Thats a new one....:bored2: Seriously where do you come up with this stuff?

Edit: Nice try taking that sentence out of context, the latter part of that statement makes a distinction and goes on to say

"It is evident that there is a distinction between a ‘falling' due to weakness and the ‘falling away' that constitutes apostasy. ".

Not just that quote but loads of other literary aides and other Biblical resources that take this issue much further that that one lone sentence you chose to post. Relying on that one sentence to come to a conclusion is barely scratching the surface of a much deeper subject.

Michael always remained respectful and to the end cherished many of the teachings, he also attended his local kingdom hall from time to time and some family members who aren't JW's say MJ died a JW...I can't say I know everything from where I'm at concerning Michael's spiritual condition which is really none of my business to begin with and something quite private but I do know and many of us know that there are some things that are not always black and white and the circumstance surrounding Michael's life was one of them.

If JW's did view Michael as an "Antichrist" The private ceremony (funeral) would have most likely not been carried out as a JW ceremony. Not only that, I and countless others would not be here.

No one ever said you said JW's said that. The first part of MJJ7777's post was directed at you. I believe the remainder of her post was a general statement. However, those quotes above when speaking about JW's directly reference them saying they are going to hell and at the very least give that impression; hence why people like MJJLatvia and Pace,MioDolceCuore answered as such about JW's when responding to people. So yes, as I said, misinformation, exxageration, and in some cases flat out lies took place in the thread as no JW has ever said this to another person here. Anyone who tries to attribute this as being said from a JW is not being truthful. It is what it is. It is also very obvious that this is the impression that multiple people are getting from what others have said. I will admit that later on Severus put (evangelical) behind being told about burning in hell. (Thanks Severus!)


I don't think at all that MJJ7777's post was talking about your disagreeing with them as persecution. As I said above, I believe only the first part of her post was directed at you. Reading on a board is about perception. When someone feels strongly about something, it can change the perception a person will have of what you write. That happens with me all of the time (Yeah, I admit it ). Even when you think you are being clear, to an opposing viewpoint, it seems jumbled. What can we say? We try to clarify. :shrug:
JW's have been persecuted very much for what they believe. That is a fact. I believe MJJ7777 went on to talk about Nazis in Germany, etc. Very real persecution. I don't think having a different opinion in itself can be considered persecution. We understand just like anyone that people will think differently and will not sanction or agree with everything you do in life.




Who saw Michael as the Antichrist? It certainly was not any JW's. Do you think any JW's would be on this board if that was their view of him? I am not even sure where this notion came from; but, I can tell you it is false.

Thanks ginvid. I was writing with emotion after seeing so much negative responses but at this stage I shouldn't be shocked, right?
its just hard seeing some attitudes on an MJ board of all places. I always see this kinda stuff on an MJ board and yes after sometime when you think you're dealing with the kind people whom you esteem to be of a certain character (Knowing we've all seen what Michael went through with public opinion and the press' mishandling of facts, I thought as MJ fans we all learned from that and we saw the world through a different pair of eyes, I thought the ability to be less judgmental and more empathetic was what set us apart from so many other groups of fans... I thought we all got the same message from Michael's life and work and everything he stood for but I thought wrong, way wrong ) and they let you down by forming and spreading opinions based on carelessly unchecked facts, it does begin to feel like a sort of persecution...theres alot of hateful cults people could sit around and lament about but no its always lets trash talk JWs.

I don't even understand the purpose of this thread, does it even matter how JW's are percieved? Bottomline, they aren't popular. Why sit here and just spew immature and disrespectful words for what... for air? I went to catholic school my whole life, there are many things I don't agree with but I would never create a thread just to talk negatively of that particular religion and many others although I could go on and on about certain things, people are acting like Oh my the world's gonna end bc every once in a while they get a knock on their door...Really?! the world is in chaos right now....war this war that innocent people who end up as collateral damage in their own homes after being gunned down by military forces and there's a thread complaining about people who knock on doors to speak of peace?? You don't think children and families in gaza wouldn't prefer a million annoying harmless preachers knocking on their doors over the reality of armed men barging in with destruction at any given moment after which they either end up dead, traumatized, fearful or without a family??

Don't mind me I'm just thinking out loud.

I used to come here to heal from the world because that is what Michael has always been to me a healer and my escape from this dark world but lately I have been leaving more hurt than healed, not just because of personal issues but just the state of thinking. Things aren't how they used to be. I love MJJC with all my heart and I hope that in the end the vision of genuine love and respect amongst the fan community will be rekindled, I know it will but I have to step back for my own good for a little while and just breathe.

Ginvid we'll stay in touch girlie!

 

[TheSilentOne]

I don't even understand the purpose of this thread, does it even matter how JW's are percieved? Bottomline, they aren't popular. Why sit here and just spew immature and disrespectful words for what... for air? I went to catholic school my whole life, there are many things I don't agree with but I would never create a thread just to talk negatively of that particular religion...

I'm so sorry you feel this way about me... When creating this thread the last thing I had in mind was to offend anyone or to critices your (or anyone elses) religion or believes.

You're right, it doesn't matter if I know how they are perceived elsewere, and after seeing all the negativity in this thread I feel it wasn't worth knowing and I regret asking. I was only curious, because I know it was Michael's religion and I wanted to know how people felt about it. I thought it could be just in my country that people feel all negative about Jehovah's Whitnesses and that in other countries they are seen differently and I was so glad to get to know that I was right from some of the replies.

To be honest I didn't expect such negative responses on MJ board.

 

[Erandi]

MJ was seen as an antichrist by JWs? Well Thats a new one....:bored2: Seriously where do you come up with this stuff?

"Such ones willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the 'antichrist.'" Watchtower 1985 July 15 p.31

Gary Botting, author of The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses and a Witness himself, said that leaving the religion is 'worse than being disfellowshipped, or kicked out." He observed, 'if you wilfully reject God's holy organization on earth, that's the unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit.'

And that's the last of that. After all, about politics and religion we shouldn't discuss. I don't mean to be disrespectul to anyone either (there was even a question mark after what I said. it was not a statement).

 

[HIStory]

No one ever said you said JW's said that. The first part of MJJ7777's post was directed at you. I believe the remainder of her post was a general statement. However, those quotes above when speaking about JW's directly reference them saying they are going to hell and at the very least give that impression; hence why people like MJJLatvia and Pace,MioDolceCuore answered as such about JW's when responding to people. So yes, as I said, misinformation, exxageration, and in some cases flat out lies took place in the thread as no JW has ever said this to another person here. Anyone who tries to attribute this as being said from a JW is not being truthful. It is what it is. It is also very obvious that this is the impression that multiple people are getting from what others have said. I will admit that later on Severus put (evangelical) behind being told about burning in hell. (Thanks Severus!)

The point is no one in this thread said JWs told him/her that he/she will burn in hell, yet you are indicating, based on this issue, that people are "flat out lying" about their experiences with JWs. Isn't it possible that they just really have bad experiences? They just really feel it an invasion of privacy when JWs knock on their doors to proselytize them. JWs have the right to knock on the doors and people have the right to feel good or bad about that and even express their opinion on that. That's it.

 

[HIStory]

Thanks ginvid. I was writing with emotion after seeing so much negative responses but at this stage I shouldn't be shocked, right?
its just hard seeing some attitudes on an MJ board of all places. I always see this kinda stuff on an MJ board and yes after sometime when you think you're dealing with the kind people whom you esteem to be of a certain character (Knowing we've all seen what Michael went through with public opinion and the press' mishandling of facts, I thought as MJ fans we all learned from that and we saw the world through a different pair of eyes, I thought the ability to be less judgmental and more empathetic was what set us apart from so many other groups of fans... I thought we all got the same message from Michael's life and work and everything he stood for but I thought wrong, way wrong ) and they let you down by forming and spreading opinions based on carelessly unchecked facts, it does begin to feel like a sort of persecution...theres alot of hateful cults people could sit around and lament about but no its always lets trash talk JWs.

Erm, to say people don't like to get knocked on their doors and proselytized is NOT persecution, I repeat! It's also not comparable to what was done to Michael and what he went through.

As for mishandling of facts, no one here said JWs told him/her he will go to hell. That was a straw-man argument by you (and then Ginvid lended support for that straw-man). If there are other factually inaccurate informations about JWs in this thread, then correct it. That's what the discussion is for!

 

[xthunderx2]

woops...sorry double post...

 

[xthunderx2]

I just want to start my post by saying that growing up I always heard from people (not my family) that the two things that are better off left out of a discussion when around a group of people is religion and politics...because everyone has their own views about both and unless you are prepared to enter into a heated discussion about either one...then leave both subjects alone.

Ok...with that being said. I have absolutely nothing against Jehovah Witnesses...I am a product of the 1960's ...I was raised with the "don't let them in your house mentality"....when I asked why,,,I was told ...because they never go away, I was a kid and listened to what I was being told. I shake my head it now. I was raised a Catholic....and man...... my mother made sure us kids were in church every Sunday...at confession to. I remember at the age of 15 being very lonely...I went to go walk into my church that i had attended for years...to my amazement...the doors were locked and I couldn't get in...so I went to the rectory were the nuns and the priests lived and I asked "why" I was not able to access the church and I was told that because of the recent break ins in the neighborhood that they now locked the church except for Sundays....I was confused....I was raised that the doors to the church were always open...yet..when I tried to open them they were locked..that didn't sit well in my mind. But anyway,,,I continued on my Catholic path for a couple more years...I started realizing that I wanted to become a nun....I loved God. But then I met this guy,,,and I realized that I didn't want to be a nun..although I still loved the Lord. We got married I started going to a Christian Church with him and his family....in that church,,,I found what I had been missing. I did Sunday School teaching for a few years until I myself started having a family of my own. Now my own daughter calls ME a crazy Christian....when I ask her why,..she says that it is because I am preaching at her....I tell her that is not true....it is that i am trying to get her to see that what it is I am telling her is the truth about God and Christ. I have learned something from my own children....I CANNOT make other people believe what it is I myself believe....I can be a good positive role model for what it is I BELIEVE...but I cannot make someone else feel the way that I feel about God and Christ...to me...Christianity...IS the way, I DO NOT condemn others for the way that they believe....I can only tell them and show them the way I know is right for me. We all have to answer for our own choices that we make...be it they are right or wrong choices. Every single person that believes in a type of higher power...or a religion will always think that THEIR way IS the right way. Like I said...I am responsible for ME and MY choices...I cannot and wont be held accountable for the choices of others. And what it is that I have with the Lord..,,I dont call it a religion...I call it a relationship.....to me religion is a label...and it is not personal...Me and God have a personal relationship...and that is the way we both like it. I love people for WHO they are NOT for what religion they are...so if folks wanna be JW...then that is fine by me...as long as they are good people...then that is all I need to know. I hope this post doesn't offend anyone...it is not in anyway ment to do that. As I just stated....I love people for WHO they are not WHAT they believe. Also just wanted to add......If I am approached by JW...I just tell them that I am a christian and what I believe...and they DO understand....they dont try and change my mind...and we part ways on a friendly note. There is no need to be ugly or rude to others....just because they believe differently from me...the ARE STILL people....all flesh and blood. Thats it......thats all I wanted to add..

 

[helena22]

Well, Jehovah's Witness is certainly an issue in my country.
Military service is mandatory for young males in South Korea, of course, with exceptions like, those with medical problems, the sole financial responsibility for one's family, etc.
And I believe I heard Jehovah's Witnesses cannot participate in regular combat training that includes shooting a gun and things of that nature. Some believers were vocal about it and appealed to court in order for their "conscientious objection" to be legalized many years.
As far as I know, it is still illegal to refuse military service based on the religion.
Some men even choose to go to jail cuz it is a crime here.

 

[andrea72]

I personally have problems with the people who wear the black badges
(Latter Day Saints), they approach people almost anywhere, especially
on public transport (they did it with me). I don't like things being put on
me either, saying oh you must do this or that or believe in this or that etc.
I feel many of these religious groups, cults or whatever you wish to call
them are teaching false prophecies. I am not saying that people should not
follow a religion or whatever. These religious groups etc like to have control
and power. I am speaking from my own experience as when i was growing up,
i was raised to follow and believe in the Roman Catholic religion. I no longer follow
a religion, but follow in the spirit of who i am. I have a 10 yr old child and i have not
brainwashed or conditioned her to follow a religion, but she goes to a faith school
(Church of England). Just because she goes to this type of primary school does not
mean she is a christian. She can decide for herself what path to take in life. She
believes in God and Jesus etc. She is a very knowning child too, gifted in many ways.

 

[Severus Snape]

It was not a "flat out lie," I was talking about religious peoples in general, not strictly JW, and comparing how JW are perceived in my area. I don't know (or care) where Pace's or MJJLatvia's areas are or how JW are treated there (that will be their own thing to disclose), but around here they're a pervasive force. And no they don't believe in the Hell Evangelicals believe in [those are the ones preaching that you're going to Hell, etc], but they do believe everyone who isn't affiliated with them is somehow "of the Devil/profane," and therefore "doing it wrong." So while the abrasive "you're going to Hell" which is typical of Evangelicals is missing, there is implied superiority in the JW message, and that bothers me when it makes its way towards my property (which I like to think of as a no religion zone).

So lies and misinformation were not told here. Perhaps things were put in unclear terms, but in regard to both, it's really "same difference" as far as I'm concerned, they're both insinuating you're not living your life right as per their beliefs when nobody asked their opinion on it.

its just hard seeing some attitudes on an MJ board of all places. I always see this kinda stuff on an MJ board and yes after sometime when you think you're dealing with the kind people whom you esteem to be of a certain character (Knowing we've all seen what Michael went through with public opinion and the press' mishandling of facts, I thought as MJ fans we all learned from that and we saw the world through a different pair of eyes, I thought the ability to be less judgmental and more empathetic was what set us apart from so many other groups of fans... I thought we all got the same message from Michael's life and work and everything he stood for but I thought wrong, way wrong ) and they let you down by forming and spreading opinions based on carelessly unchecked facts, it does begin to feel like a sort of persecution...theres alot of hateful cults people could sit around and lament about but no its always lets trash talk JWs.

I'd like to remind the world at large that being a Michael Jackson fan does not compel me to act a certain way. I will act however I see fit, as I am my own person and do not base my personality or beliefs upon the personality or beliefs of musicians I listen to. I'm not prone to brainwashing, whether religious or secular. Michael was his own person who lived his life in the way he saw fit and had his own opinions regarding various topics, and I am my own person with VERY different views from his (one of which is showing little sympathy when groups of people who go around soliciting on private property or littering public property implying they're better than everyone else and will be "saved" while the others either rot in some fiery pit or undergo some unknown fate complain because others don't like them very much). With that said, I was merely drawing comparisons between two groups of people who see it fit to go porch to porch badgering their neighbours (around my area, evangelicals and JW). The former will blatantly tell you of your damnation, the latter will insinuate you're "not doing it right" regarding life. How is going door to door touting your beliefs tolerant of the world around you in any way? That's what we have churches for, so your lot can go and congregate in peace without being bothered/bothering anyone and speaking on your message to a willing audience to your little hearts' content.

If T.N.A., Respect77, or I were intolerant against religion, we'd advocate for the complete destruction of churches everywhere. I have yet to see that argument come up. The only thing we think is that JW (and religions with similar recruitment methods) are negatively perceived because they see it fit to go around preaching unto unwilling ears and leaving their pamphlets where they're not wanted. That's not an intolerant statement.

What is intolerant, however, is threatening to kick someone out of a church for making a video which just depicted werewolves, etc. in a frivolous way.

I find it funny that religious people often draw on the "intolerance" card when the very principles of pretty much about any given religion are all about intolerance.

I'm about the most tolerant person you'll ever meet. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law basically sums up what I believe in--however, your right to do what you will ends where mine begins, and if I don't want to see your religious things outside your religious setting in a country which separates church from state, I am within my right to take up that position. Let church things remain in church.

And, once again, I am left with some junk upon my porch.

Just as an aside, I'd be equally annoyed if someone went door-to-door preaching politics to me or leaving political pamphlets at my door without my expressed interest in them, so my stance is not expressly an anti-religion one. I'm against people thinking their views on a given thing are better than others' enough to trespass on their property and will by leaving unwanted information/wasting time.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Certainly not seen as some sort of cult in the uk imo but theres the jokes about them going door door etc. my mum has a few jw friends who come around and they are pretty nutty. but then u are gonna get that cause ppl who are jws tend to actually believe and practice what they preach unlike ppl who follow or claim to be of other religions so that makes them more extream. they are prob seen on the same level as mormons as we have loads round here and they do the door to door annoying u in the street stuff aswell which is prob what annoys ppl the most. i was stopped by a mormon once who must of been all of 15.american or canadian sent to the uk to save us. he realky picked the wrong person to stop lol he got a lesson in many things that day.we dont have the fundimentalist christians here that they do in the usa so the j.w's are seen as the extreme where as those in the usa are frankly dangerous and they could learn alot from j w

 

[ginvid]

It was not a "flat out lie," I was talking about religious peoples in general, not strictly JW, and comparing how JW are perceived in my area. I don't know (or care) where Pace's or MJJLatvia's areas are or how JW are treated there (that will be their own thing to disclose), but around here they're a pervasive force. And no they don't believe in the Hell Evangelicals believe in [those are the ones preaching that you're going to Hell, etc], but they do believe everyone who isn't affiliated with them is somehow "of the Devil/profane," and therefore "doing it wrong." So while the abrasive "you're going to Hell" which is typical of Evangelicals is missing, there is implied superiority in the JW message, and that bothers me when it makes its way towards my property (which I like to think of as a no religion zone).

So lies and misinformation were not told here. Perhaps things were put in unclear terms, but in regard to both, it's really "same difference" as far as I'm concerned, they're both insinuating you're not living your life right as per their beliefs when nobody asked their opinion on it.



I'd like to remind the world at large that being a Michael Jackson fan does not compel me to act a certain way. I will act however I see fit, as I am my own person and do not base my personality or beliefs upon the personality or beliefs of musicians I listen to. I'm not prone to brainwashing, whether religious or secular. Michael was his own person who lived his life in the way he saw fit and had his own opinions regarding various topics, and I am my own person with VERY different views from his (one of which is showing little sympathy when groups of people who go around soliciting on private property or littering public property implying they're better than everyone else and will be "saved" while the others either rot in some fiery pit or undergo some unknown fate complain because others don't like them very much). With that said, I was merely drawing comparisons between two groups of people who see it fit to go porch to porch badgering their neighbours (around my area, evangelicals and JW). The former will blatantly tell you of your damnation, the latter will insinuate you're "not doing it right" regarding life. How is going door to door touting your beliefs tolerant of the world around you in any way? That's what we have churches for, so your lot can go and congregate in peace without being bothered/bothering anyone and speaking on your message to a willing audience to your little hearts' content.

If T.N.A., Respect77, or I were intolerant against religion, we'd advocate for the complete destruction of churches everywhere. I have yet to see that argument come up. The only thing we think is that JW (and religions with similar recruitment methods) are negatively perceived because they see it fit to go around preaching unto unwilling ears and leaving their pamphlets where they're not wanted. That's not an intolerant statement.

What is intolerant, however, is threatening to kick someone out of a church for making a video which just depicted werewolves, etc. in a frivolous way.

I find it funny that religious people often draw on the "intolerance" card when the very principles of pretty much about any given religion are all about intolerance.

I'm about the most tolerant person you'll ever meet. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law basically sums up what I believe in--however, your right to do what you will ends where mine begins, and if I don't want to see your religious things outside your religious setting in a country which separates church from state, I am within my right to take up that position. Let church things remain in church.

And, once again, I am left with some junk upon my porch.

Just as an aside, I'd be equally annoyed if someone went door-to-door preaching politics to me or leaving political pamphlets at my door without my expressed interest in them, so my stance is not expressly an anti-religion one. I'm against people thinking their views on a given thing are better than others' enough to trespass on their property and will by leaving unwanted information/wasting time.

Look, here is what it is. Anyone who goers off saying JW's tell them they are going to hell are flat out lying. I don't care if it "seems" the same to you or not. It is not the same to others and it would be best to be clear about what you are refering to when spouting your experiences for the benefit of those who do not know. I said in my post how things were implied and I even acknowledged how you later on put evangelicals in parenthesis to show that was the group you were refering to. So yes, when you and TNA originally gave your stories it was an example of misinformation, exxageration, and in some cases out right lies. Down from the hell stories straight to the story Respect77 said that JW's go to people's door just to tell them they are sinners. It is not accurate of what actually takes place and at best is a purposeful over simplification targeted at trying to make something what it is not. Or when people say our publications tout about how rock and roll is bad. Give me a break. Again it is an oversimplification, exxageration whose purpose to create a bias in order to make your opinion seem validated. If you have had a bad experience with JW's or do not agree with what they do, all a person has to do is simply tell their opinion and tell it accurately with all of the extra fluff to try to give their opinion more substance. Your opinion is what it is. If you have it, it can stand on its own and does not have to be justified with extras that never took place. That is the point of my statements. And yes, no matter how things "appear to be similar in your opnion" I like for things to be accurately told because throughout my life of being a JW I constantly have to shoot down rumours people have based on stories that were told them by people who felt there was no difference. You will have to excuse my cynicism for the motives of people who do such things.

And as for your property being a "No religion" zone, JW's have a protocol set up for those who do not want them returning again. We try to be respectful to of those around us hence why we are told not to leave literature just sitting on people's doorstep. I find it VERY hard to believe that they just continue to leave things for people especially if they have flat out told them not to return again. And, I am nearly 99% sure that they would not leave books or a Bible to a person who has not given them permission. I know we can have some who do not follow what is appropriate, but it is not common.

YOU personally may not appreciate them coming to you but there are many who do appreciate it. There are some who are searching and do not know where to begin to look. It is our duty to follow Christ's example and not sit by and wait for people to come to you but to actively make a search for those who may be looking. This may seem as overly aggressive to you, and that is your right. Believe me, I know I personally don't want to waste my time on someone not interested. It serves no purpose. If you do not want someone to come to your home, JW's are not looking to by pass your wishes, simply let them know you are not someone who appreciates this and you do not want them to come back. JW's as a group try to respectful of those around them and I know I try not to do to anyone else what I would not want someone to do to me. We try to actually live our lives by what is written in the scriptures not just provide lip service. I know from experience that sometimes JW's can be very zealous (that's the word I will use) I will forever stand by them as a group and I appreciate having a worldwide brotherhood who are all striving to towards the same goal of bettering themselves as a person. It is not just about what is written in a book, but how each of us can grow to have a personal relationship with Jehovah. It is about spirituality not tradition. That is why you will find things written in old JW literature that is out of date and not even believed anymore. Spirituality is not stoic, it is constantly evolving as our understanding evolves.

I really do not believe in expending my time going over the same thing multiple times for people who are quite content to think as they do. So I just don't see a need to continue on with the subject of hell past this post. However, I stand by everything I have said in this thread concerning it. I do want to add, so it is clear, that because someone is not entirely truthful about their experince with JW's, no one is implying that a person's whole attitude towards them is made up out of nothing. It is not only possible but highly probable that a person has had a bad experience with JW's given the work we do and how it is perceived. No one is saying that we don't think a person should not be able to have those opinions based on their experiences nor are we saying that some part in doubt negates the whole experience. The point is the perception. Perception is manifested from experiences both real, imagined, and exxagerated. It doesn't really matter if dozens of times you found literature at your door, even if it is there a few times when it is not wanted, the perception is going to be that it is there all of the time. Sometimes, because of not keeping up with current direction, we are slow to change the way we do things. When this happens to someone, I can only apologize. What else can I say? I can apologize and hope in the future that a person's interaction is not so unpleasant. Hopefully this will be the case since it is not the intention.