Latest on MJJC

Diana Ross V The Supremes, What's the problem?

DuranDuran said:
During the Motown 25 taping, Diane got mad at Mary for some reason and pushed her in front of the entire audience and cameras. Gordy has the footage in a vault, never to be seen again.
Click to expand...

Michael actually saw it all. He came home and described their wordy duel to Latoya, she wrote about it in her book.
 
wannabestartinsomthin21 said:
Who cares. Diana Ross made the Supremes the success they were. And Mary Wilson is also the one who over the years has refused to budge even a bit, refusing to work with Diana or cooporate when they tried to reunite, etc... Just sound's like jealousy to me, considering Diana Ross was Motown's biggest star at the time.
Click to expand...

Well I think that credit has to be given to Florence Ballard too. She was afterall the founding member of the group, but Diana did help make them the big success they were. I also agree about Mary Wilson, she seems very bitter and is always bad talking Diana. Diana I think from what i've read about her is not a bad person, just a self-centered one lol.

DuranDuran said:
That was the point, all the other Motown acts disliked that Gordy was spending a lot of money on promoting her because she was sleeping with the boss (and felt she was a weak singer, David Ruffin in particular thought this), and not promoting them. She was bigger because she got promoted.
Click to expand...


Well regardless of the fact that she was sleeping with the boss, Diana clearly had something going for her and Berry Gordy saw this. She was quite young when she started out at Motown though and wanted to be a star, so I really don't blame her for some of the things she did while at Motown. I don't get why some people say Diana can't sing though. Diana may not have the strongest voice, but still I think she can sing. She is a stylized singer. Also, she had tons of charisma and stage presence and although I think Berry Gordy could have handled certain things differently, I believe he made the right choice in making Diana the lead singer of the group. She just had that "it" quality that can't be denied. She was clearly the star of the group and her high, nasal voice was perfect for most of the Supremes songs. They were all great together though and complimented eachother well. The original lineup will always be my fave.

Back to the OP's original question though, I really think the amount of animosity a lot of Supremes fans have towards Diana is unwarranted . She is not a horrible woman like many claim and she did not sabatoge anyone's career, she was just looking out for herself. I just don't get why so many Supremes fans dislike her, if you want to be mad at someone be mad at Berry Gordy. He's the one who changed the name to "Diana Ross & The Supremes", he's the one who kicked Flo out the group and also is the reason Flo ended up with pratically nothing (financialy) when she left the group. Berry Gordy did some really shady things back in the day. Now, Diana sure as hell aint no saint, but a lot of the things people seem to be mad at Diana for were not even her doing.
 
Last edited:
I think Diana could sing and she does have stage presence. Berry Gordy knew that. But like Marvin, Diana pushed the extra mile and got the coverage that most of the Motown elite disliked. That's why there's stories printed about her being some kind of b*tch but everybody's got a diva side to them. Diana Ross isn't really UNIQUE in that department. And it wasn't like she was hiding that part of herself. She's the one who'll tell her employees "call me Miss Ross or you're fired." LOL It's strange to see a black person tell anybody to do that, lol, but somehow she pulled it off. Diana and Florence MADE the Supremes, Mary just circled around everything so it would be complete. Those three women sparked a flame that changed the music world (though they were one of many in the Motown world and the black music community to do it). But Diana and Flo definitely WERE "The Supremes". Flo was the group's heart and soul and Diana was its voice. Nuff said.
 
14235__supremes_l.jpg


TheSupremes.gif


369362634_30ee5a9454.jpg


supremes.jpg


supremes_05.jpg
 
Cinnamon234 said:
I believe he made the right choice in making Diana the lead singer of the group.
Click to expand...
I like Diane, but he could have made them like The Temptations with multiple leads. Even if it's just album tracks. Paul Williams did a lot of leads with The Temps, but not much of it was released as singles (as Gordy thought his voice was too "soulful" and not "pop" enough), which were mostly Eddie, David, and later Dennis. Changing the group's name to Diana Ross and the Supremes couldn't have helped either. Some of the later songs didn't have "The Supremes", but Diane with other background singers.
 
Last edited:
DuranDuran said:
I like Diane, but he could have made them like The Temptations with multiple leads. Even if it's just album tracks. Paul Williams did a lot of leads with The Temps, but not much of it was released as singles, which were mostly Eddie, David, and later Dennis. Changing the group's name to Diana Ross and the Supremes couldn't have helped either. Some of the later songs didn't have "The Supremes", but Diane with other background singers.
Click to expand...

I agree. That's why when I hear Flo's leads on Supremes songs, I'm a little stifled she wasn't allowed more. I guess Berry felt he didn't want another Marvelettes (they also shared the leads). In fact, I think he kinda build them as the sweeter equivalent of Martha and the Vandellas:

*Martha Reeves was the first Motown artist to have any part of her name attached to a group (Martha and the Vandellas).

*Martha and the Vandellas were the first to take Holland-Dozier-Holland compositions and turn them into sales gold ("Heat Wave", "Come Get These Memories", "Quicksand", "Live Wire").

*Martha had a demanding presence and Berry thought Diana could do the same for the Supremes, I think that's why she was made the official lead singer.

*Martha and the Vandellas had a rougher, soulful approach to her songs than Diana Ross so Berry wanted to compare the two: one rough and one sweet.

----
Martha Reeves was particularly upset when Berry reportedly gave a bunch of songs HDH wrote to the Supremes rather than for them. Before, they were the top female group of the label. All the Motown acts was upset when Berry put all of his energy into establishing the Supremes - and Diana in particular - into making them the group to cross over. Of course there was a backlash because once the Supremes did make it to the mainstream, as it may, they got called out as "sell-outs". Somehow, when Marvin Gaye, the Temptations and even Martha did similar stuff that the Supremes did, they didn't get that notion at all.
 
But Marvin wanted to sing show tunes, not the "Motown Sound", lol. Diana has a more "pop" voice than the "gospel" style of a lot of the other Motown performers. Many of them could have sung for Stax, Diana's voice isn't really suited for that. If Edwin Starr sang the exact same songs the Supremes did in the same way, it wouldn't have sold. This is part of the reason why Diana was made the lead, because Florence had the "gospel" or "soulful" voice which wouldn't have crossed over as well. This is also why Stax artists and sound mostly appealed to the black audience and very rarely crossed over. A lot of them didn't like the polished pop sound of Motown and considered it a "sell out". Stax wasn't "The Sound Of Young America", lol.
 
DuranDuran said:
But Marvin wanted to sing show tunes, not the "Motown Sound", lol. Diana has a more "pop" voice than the "gospel" style of a lot of the other Motown performers. Many of them could have sung for Stax, Diana's voice isn't really suited for that. If Edwin Starr sang the exact same songs the Supremes did in the same way, it wouldn't have sold. This is part of the reason why Diana was made the lead, because Florence had the "gospel" or "soulful" voice which wouldn't have crossed over as well. This is also why Stax artists and sound mostly appealed to the black audience and very rarely crossed over. A lot of them didn't like the polished pop sound of Motown and considered it a "sell out". Stax wasn't "The Sound Of Young America", lol.
Click to expand...

True, lol. But I do think it's a double standard when Berry told Marvin to stick to R&B but gave the show tunes to Diana. Marvin was probably angered to the point he wanted to kill his brother-in-law. From many accounts, Marvin and Berry fought over "everything"! :lol: Including Diana being the bigger star, lol.
 
troubleman84 said:
True, lol. But I do think it's a double standard when Berry told Marvin to stick to R&B but gave the show tunes to Diana. Marvin was probably angered to the point he wanted to kill his brother-in-law. From many accounts, Marvin and Berry fought over "everything"! :lol: Including Diana being the bigger star, lol.
Click to expand...
Marvin's debut album was standards, but it didn't do well.
 
Wow thanks for all the info you guys its been very interesting. I have a question... The recent re done of the musical DreamGirls, why was most of the movie fake and didn't stick with the original plot of the play? They tried to make it based on the Supremes life when it wasn't even about the Supremes. Thats why I'm not sure if the whole Diana sleeping with Berry bit is true or not because thats basically what the new redention was alluding to. Alot of old acts from Motown were upset because they THOUGHT it was about the Supremes and they didn't like how Motown was being portrayed overall. Smokey Robinson even said he didn't like how Berry Gordy was portrayed but it wasn't even about the Supremes? Why does Hollywood do ish like that? It gets on my nerves... The movie wasn't even all of that and was beyond overrated.


As much as I love Diana the other members of the group should have had more leads period. To be honest, Diana can sing but her voice isn't really strong. Other members like Flo could really sing but like others have said it wasn't "pop". Thats typical though what people do and what people will do for others to get to the top, JUST for themself. Its doesn't matter though because the Supremes are icons whether they got their dues back in the day or not. It just seems like NOW, Diana gets more of the credit than them which isn't to cool. I can see if it was regarding maybe her solo career but she always got it more even when the focus was "suppose" to be on Supremes
 
Last edited:
DuranDuran said:
Marvin's debut album was standards, but it didn't do well.
Click to expand...

I meant to say that Marvin figured that Berry didn't want to promote his standards sets because he felt like Berry was trying to box him in. Ironically, it's also been said fans loved it when Marvin was singing sexy R&B rather than trying to be a crooner.

I think his fans eventually convinced him that he was indeed a soul man so he stopped making standards after 1966 but he never stopped loving jazz. In 1978, he cut a jazz recording that took 20 years to come out and instead of imitating white crooners, he put his own "soul" into the recordings. It's called "Vulnerable" and it's probably one of his best artistic moments of his career.
 
Last edited:
Here is a book released last year. Flo did some interviews for a proposed book in the mid 1970s, but died before it could be completed, so the idea was scrapped. The collaborator published the interviews that were done. It's really interesting.
Lost-Supreme_Florence_Ballard.jpg
 
love this thread... thanks for the info. I'd heard about Diana's diva antics and knew about the history of the Supremes and of Flo particularly, but it's so nice to see music historians debating on this topic in a respectful way.

I've always been a fan of Flo, I can't imagine what it mutsa been like for her to be pushed into the background of a group that she helped to create and watch her friend turn into a "frenemy" for lack of a better word. She and Paul Williams are two of the greatest tragedies at Motown IMO. I wonder how Berry feels about what hand he had in their deaths. Or if he feels anything at all... does anyone know what kind of comments he made when Flo and Paul died?
 
^^^^^I don't know anything about Paul's situation with Motown or Berry Gordy, but he had some problems off the job. He was in love with 2 women, his wife and another woman he started dating. It was implied that this is why he started drinking, when before he never drank alcohol at all. There was some rumors that he was killed rather than commiting suicide, but I don't know what the background is on that. There was a songwriter at Motown in the 1960s that also killed himself, named Roger something. I don't remember his last name.
 
Go to Tvone.com you will see unsung Florance bird story hope i spell her name right to understand why so many people can't stand Diana ross but to me when i watched her story it really wasn't diana fault that the group broke up but mary wilson made it very clear that it was diana fault and she can't stand her
 
DuranDuran said:
^^^^^I don't know anything about Paul's situation with Motown or Berry Gordy, but he had some problems off the job. He was in love with 2 women, his wife and another woman he started dating. It was implied that this is why he started drinking, when before he never drank alcohol at all. There was some rumors that he was killed rather than commiting suicide, but I don't know what the background is on that. There was a songwriter at Motown in the 1960s that also killed himself, named Roger something. I don't remember his last name.
Click to expand...

I remember their being controversy on his death.. his family swore that he'd never kill himself but the police were never able to have conclusive evidence one way or another...

I didn't know about the situation with the women tho.. i'll have to look that up...
 
Thetruthbetold said:
Go to Tvone.com you will see unsung Florance bird story hope i spell her name right to understand why so many people can't stand Diana ross but to me when i watched her story it really wasn't diana fault that the group broke up but mary wilson made it very clear that it was diana fault and she can't stand her
Click to expand...
The Supremes didn't break up. When Diana left, Jean Terrell became the lead singer. During the 1970s, there were different lineups, the only constant being Mary Wilson (like Otis Williams is the only constant member of The Temptations). They finally broke up in 1979.

HeartbreakHotelMJJ said:
I remember their being controversy on his death.. his family swore that he'd never kill himself but the police were never able to have conclusive evidence one way or another...

I didn't know about the situation with the women tho.. i'll have to look that up...
Click to expand...
Back to the Supremes, did you know Cindy Birdsong was chosen to be in the group because she looked like Flo, so the audience wouldn't really know that Flo was out of the group. Also Mary & Cindy sang on very few of the "Diana Ross & The Supremes" records. A lot of them were really The Adantes, Motown's house backup singers. I think the Waters' sisters sing on "Someday We'll Be Together". Not long after Cindy joined the group, she was kidnapped. But she managed to jump out of the car (which was hers). The guy who abducted her was caught later.
 
Last edited:
The Motown writer that is mentioned above that I didn't remember the last name of is Roger Penzabene.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top