Detailed list of unreleased songs that could be released

[Fuzball]

No, it didn’t.

“Chicago 1945” is a completely separate track that has no lyrical or musical connection to “Al Capone” or “Smooth Criminal.”

This has been confirmed by (1) co-writer Steve Porcaro, (2) Matt Forger, (3) Damien Shields, and (4) a number of attendees of an In the Studio with MJ seminar where the song was played.

Also, “Chicago 1945” has never once been referred to as “Chicago Nights.” If I recall correctly, “Chicago Nights” was/is the working title for the segment in Moonwalker that contained the “Smooth Criminal” short film, and fans took the title connection and ran with it.

The only link between those 3 songs is their dark themed story line.

 

[AlwaysThere]

The only link between those 3 songs is their dark themed story line.

Precisely.

“Chicago 1945” is about three girls who go missing; “Smooth Criminal” (and presumably “Al Capone,” but who knows because I have no idea what MJ is saying lol) is about a girl’s murder.

Perhaps “Chicago 1945” was a springboard for what ultimately became “Smooth Criminal,” but that doesn’t make it an early version. That’s like saying that “Streetwalker” is a demo of “Dangerous” because Bill Bottrell used it as a jumping off point.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Chicago 1945 has no connection to Al Capone or Smooth Criminal.
Someone who attended one of Brad Sundberg's seminars which featured also Steve Porcaro as a special guest (the guy who worked with Michael on Chicago 1945) wrote this in a blog:

''After the Thriller album came out, during the Victory tour (or maybe right before it) Porcaro submitted a few grooves to Michael. Sometime later MJ called Steve and told him that he wanted to do something with one of them. Apparently, he had gone to the library and read on Chicago of the 1930s-40s, and that’s how he came up with an idea for the song. He and Porcaro met and recorded nine straight vocal takes for what would become “Chicago 1945.”

Of course, it’s impossible to describe music in text, but here are five things you need to know about “Chicago 1945”:
- The song is completed musically an vocally and perfectly releasable as is;
- It has no connection to “Al Capone” or “Smooth Criminal” (another myth) – a completely different and separate song;
- The lyrics tell a story about (three?) girls who went out at night and disappeared;
- It’s a catchy song. Not the level of greatness of “Billie Jean” or “Beat It,” but a solid groove. The hook (“Never to be found again… never to be found again”) was stuck in my head for 3 days after we had heard it;
- As the song was playing, I was trying to find another MJ song to compare it to. The closest I could come up with was “Behind the Mask” – the song is in the same tempo, and even the composition seemed somewhat similar to me. Although I think “Chicago 1945” is sung in a lower key – Michael’s voice is not as resonant as in “BTM.”

No, it didn’t.

“Chicago 1945” is a completely separate track that has no lyrical or musical connection to “Al Capone” or “Smooth Criminal.”

This has been confirmed by (1) co-writer Steve Porcaro, (2) Matt Forger, (3) Damien Shields, and (4) a number of attendees of an In the Studio with MJ seminar where the song was played.

Also, “Chicago 1945” has never once been referred to as “Chicago Nights.” If I recall correctly, “Chicago Nights” was/is the working title for the segment in Moonwalker that contained the “Smooth Criminal” short film, and fans took the title connection and ran with it.

Precisely.

“Chicago 1945” is about three girls who go missing; “Smooth Criminal” (and presumably “Al Capone,” but who knows because I have no idea what MJ is saying lol) is about a girl’s murder.

Perhaps “Chicago 1945” was a springboard for what ultimately became “Smooth Criminal,” but that doesn’t make it an early version. That’s like saying that “Streetwalker” is a demo of “Dangerous” because Bill Bottrell used it as a jumping off point.

A song does not have to be an early version/demo of another song in order for the songs to have a connection.

Ideas and elements taken from a song and later used to another song can create a connection of the songs, too.

In this case, ideas and elements were taken from one song (‘Chicago 1945’) in order to create later a second song (‘Al Capone’).

Considering that ‘Al Capone’ eventually evolved into a third song (‘Smooth Criminal’), then ‘Smooth Criminal’ is connected to ‘Chicago 1945’.

Also, Matt Forger implied that this connection of these three songs seems to exist:

“…‘Chicago 1945’ was done prior to ‘Al Capone’… It [‘Chicago 1945’] was a song that maybe Michael used as the idea for ‘Al Capone’, and ‘Al Capone’ was the idea for ‘Smooth Criminal’…” (Matt Forger)

Also, some other sources state that ‘Chicago 1945’ was re-worked so as to become later ‘Al Capone’, and then ‘Al Capone’ was re-worked so as to eventually become ‘Smooth Criminal’.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Also, some other sources state that ‘Chicago 1945’ was re-worked so as to become later ‘Al Capone’, and then ‘Al Capone’ was re-worked so as to eventually become ‘Smooth Criminal’.

"Some other sources" being...?

There is not one single soul on the planet that has confirmed that "Chicago 1945" has any connection to "Smooth Criminal." Matt Forger even said that MAYBE there was a elemental connection, but couldn't confirm it.

I really can't take this. You need to stop spreading such brazen misinformation. We're all craving news and background into Michael's vault, and you have a tendency to consistently spout your own personal beliefs and/or assumptions as unquestionable facts, most of which are based on your own interpretations of observations made by collaborators that could be read in multiple different ways.

I don't mean to start a fight, but this thread is LITERALLY about detailing unreleased songs. Please, for the sake of this community, stop.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

"Some other sources" being...?

There is not one single soul on the planet that has confirmed that "Chicago 1945" has any connection to "Smooth Criminal." Matt Forger even said that MAYBE there was a elemental connection, but couldn't confirm it.

I really can't take this. You need to stop spreading such brazen misinformation. We're all craving news and background into Michael's vault, and you have a tendency to consistently spout your own personal beliefs and/or assumptions as unquestionable facts, most of which are based on your own interpretations of observations made by collaborators that could be read in multiple different ways.

I don't mean to start a fight, but this thread is LITERALLY about detailing unreleased songs. Please, for the sake of this community, stop.

I second this. As a new fan, it’s extremely hard to tell what is fact and what is fiction in this thread. I’m actively avoiding reading mj_frenzy’s posts to not get wrong information planted in my brain. Please stop.

 

[Stefano MJS]

Maybe a dispute with someone who worked on it or something, the estate don't seem that bothered about doing anything respectfully and can't release a lot of songs as a result.

That's a shame... Very interesting song.
It has a good rhythm and great "Western" vibe btw.

 

[mj_frenzy]

"Some other sources" being...?

There is not one single soul on the planet that has confirmed that "Chicago 1945" has any connection to "Smooth Criminal." Matt Forger even said that MAYBE there was a elemental connection, but couldn't confirm it.

I really can't take this. You need to stop spreading such brazen misinformation. We're all craving news and background into Michael's vault, and you have a tendency to consistently spout your own personal beliefs and/or assumptions as unquestionable facts, most of which are based on your own interpretations of observations made by collaborators that could be read in multiple different ways.

I don't mean to start a fight, but this thread is LITERALLY about detailing unreleased songs. Please, for the sake of this community, stop.

Then, this means that you need to improve your research skills.

Some other sources are, for example, Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead who have mentioned several times in their writings that ‘Chicago 1945’ is a song that evolved into ‘Smooth Criminal’.

Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead can be considered reliable sources also because they have been working closely with Adrian Grant for many years, and they have been helping him in his research for some of his publications (like, his ‘Michael Jackson: The Visual Documentary’ book).

As you can see, I provided some of the sources that you asked me about the connection between ‘Chicago 1945’ and ‘Smooth Criminal’.

As a side comment, you are in no position to say to anyone here that he/she confuses or mixes up his/her own opinion with fact, considering that you have been doing that exact thing:

I will not be confusing my opinion with fact anymore. This comes simply from an immense amount of research. Half of the things that I know anyone could find out with a simple Google search and patience. I don't blame anyone for not believing me, by no means. As far as the estate situation goes and their releases, I've been wrong before, as I've mixed up my own opinion with fact, and for that I apologize. But when it comes to Michael's music (recording date, completion, etc), I would like to say that I'm fairly certain in what I'm talking about.

Also, later posts of yours show that you continue to confuse (or mix up) your own opinion with fact.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I second this. As a new fan, it’s extremely hard to tell what is fact and what is fiction in this thread. I’m actively avoiding reading mj_frenzy’s posts to not get wrong information planted in my brain. Please stop.

I am sure that you read everything that I write here, so there is no reason for you to lie to us (by saying that you actively avoid reading my posts).

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I am sure that you read everything that I write here, so there is no reason for you to lie to us (by saying that you actively avoid reading my posts).

OK, I guess I need to be more specific. Here’s what I do:

When I come to the forum, I open the page “What’s new”. This is what is currently looks like:

So I see in the overview that you’re calling me a liar, and I came here to suggest you take that back.

Other than that I have stopped to open any posts that have your name on them because I found them too confusing and misleading most of the time.

 

[mj_frenzy]

OK, I guess I need to be more specific. Here’s what I do:

When I come to the forum, I open the page “What’s new”. This is what is currently looks like:

So I see in the overview that you’re calling me a liar, and I came here to suggest you take that back.

Other than that I have stopped to open any posts that have your name on them because I found them too confusing and misleading most of the time.

If you actively avoid reading my posts as you say, then why do you describe them as “too confusing and misleading most of the time”?

It does not make sense.

And the fact that you replied instantly to my above post, this shows that you keep reading my posts.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

If you actively avoid reading my posts as you say, then why do you describe them as “too confusing and misleading most of the time”?

It does not make sense.

And the fact that you replied instantly to my above post, this shows that you keep reading my posts.

Did you even read and understand what I just explained to you? At this point I’m assuming you’re a troll. :laughing:

Edit: Found a way to fix the issue.

 

[IMWhizzle]

How many unreleased songs are there left from the Invincible sessions?

 

[mj_frenzy]

How many unreleased songs are there left from the Invincible sessions?

The unreleased songs that are left from the 'Invincible' album sessions are more than 100.

During a Los Angeles radio interview, Michael Jackson revealed to Steve Harvey (on March 8th, 2002) that for the ‘Invincible’ album, he did more than 100 songs.

Michael Jackson: “'Cause I'll do at least over 100 songs, until I come up with about 20 or 30 that I like”

Steve Harvey: “No doubt...”

Michael Jackson: “And I'll decipher it down...”

Steve Harvey: “Wow, 100 songs, dog, before you come up with 20 or 30 you like?”

Michael Jackson: “Yeah, it was more this time, actually, than 100!”

Steve: “Gee”

Rodney Jerkins also spoke about a similar number of more than 100 unreleased songs from the ‘Invincible’ album sessions.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

mj_frenzy just tell us where you get your info. it's not hard. also stop putting your opinions with facts. your opinions are not facts. if you don't like a song or something Michael did you don't have to like it. BUT you shouldn't changes the facts with opinions because you don't like the facts.

if you a troll please stop. we all welcome here. but you gonna keep putting your opinions with facts you gonna get in trouble....

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I also wanna say. can we stop fighting?! i notice lately now that every thread have arguing in it. if you guys really want to talk to people just message them. greez. i'm really getting tired seeing this in every thread now. i'm not sure who start it but it really has got to stop. we are MJ fans. if Michael was alive to see every thread with his fans always arguing and fighting he would be disappointed.

i don't understand why some people call themselves fans when you never go by his message. L.O.V.E. like seriously. anyway going off topic.

 

[IMWhizzle]

The unreleased songs that are left from the 'Invincible' album sessions are more than 100.

During a Los Angeles radio interview, Michael Jackson revealed to Steve Harvey (on March 8th, 2002) that for the ‘Invincible’ album, he did more than 100 songs.

Michael Jackson: “'Cause I'll do at least over 100 songs, until I come up with about 20 or 30 that I like”

Steve Harvey: “No doubt...”

Michael Jackson: “And I'll decipher it down...”

Steve Harvey: “Wow, 100 songs, dog, before you come up with 20 or 30 you like?”

Michael Jackson: “Yeah, it was more this time, actually, than 100!”

Steve: “Gee”

Rodney Jerkins also spoke about a similar number of more than 100 unreleased songs from the ‘Invincible’ album sessions.

I know that he told that in the interview, but we all know Michael loved to exaggerate things. I want to know if there is actual recorded stuff, that is different than drafts or ideas.

 

[Hess]

NO waay did MJ finish record more than 100 songs for Invincible. - He may have had more than 100 songs/demos looked thru - songs other people submitted, some melodies he made himself etc. But I doubt he laid down finished vocals for more than 30 songs...

 

[IMWhizzle]

NO waay did MJ finish record more than 100 songs for Invincible. - He may have had more than 100 songs/demos looked thru - songs other people submitted, some melodies he made himself etc. But I doubt he laid down finished vocals for more than 30 songs...

Still, I would like to hear them. Invincible was the album Michael worked on for a long time. It was a long wait between history and the release of invincible. It’s an interesting period and I would like to know more of these recording sessions.

 

[travis3000]

Invincible had 16 songs that made the cut. We've heard already many outtakes like:

-Another Day
-Fall Again
-A Place With No Name
-Beautiful Girl
-The Way You Love Me
-We've Had Enough
-Shout
-One More Chance
-Xscape
-She Was Loving Me
-Blue Gangster
-Days In Gloucestershire
-I Am A Loser
-In The Back
-All In Your Name
-Seeing Voices

In addition to these there are about 4-5 other songs that are 100% complete, and about 15-20 more that are in various stages of completion.

 

[IMWhizzle]

Invincible had 16 songs that made the cut. We've heard already many outtakes like:

-Another Day
-Fall Again
-A Place With No Name
-Beautiful Girl
-The Way You Love Me
-We've Had Enough
-Shout
-One More Chance
-Xscape
-She Was Loving Me
-Blue Gangster
-Days In Gloucestershire
-I Am A Loser
-In The Back
-All In Your Name
-Seeing Voices

In addition to these there are about 4-5 other songs that are 100% complete, and about 15-20 more that are in various stages of completion.

Wow, 5 complete never before heard songs? What kind of songs, what do they sound like? Who produced them?

 

[AlwaysThere]

I hate the consistent fighting myself. But I cannot stand the ridiculous and provably false claims.

Some other sources are, for example, Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead who have mentioned several times in their writings that ‘Chicago 1945’ is a song that evolved into ‘Smooth Criminal’.

Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead can be considered reliable sources also because they have been working closely with Adrian Grant for many years, and they have been helping him in his research for some of his publications (like, his ‘Michael Jackson: The Visual Documentary’ book).

Yes, the Chris Cadman and Craig Halstead who wrote "For the Record," which was originally published in 2007 and updated in 2014, i.e. prior to any public commentary on "Chicago 1945." That book contains plenty of information that we now know to be incorrect.

As a side comment, you are in no position to say to anyone here that he/she confuses or mixes up his/her own opinion with fact, considering that you have been doing that exact thing:

This comment was from six years ago. I've since stopped.

The unreleased songs that are left from the 'Invincible' album sessions are more than 100.

No. There's. Not. There's not even 100 finished tracks in the vault from 1979-2009.

 

[Korgnex]

-One More Chance
-Days In Gloucestershire
-I Am A Loser

I myself believed these to be recorded for INVINCIBLE but according to the producers they were all recorded AFTER 2001.

-All In Your Name
-Seeing Voices

The first was recorded in 2002 and the second was never intended for INVINCIBLE, it was a special project as we know, that's where the leak is sourced from.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Yeah, I thought DIG and IAAL were recorded in 03.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Some more information about songs that have been mentioned here:

‘In The Back’ has no connection at all to the ‘Invincible’ album.

‘In The Back’ belongs to the ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ era, it is an outtake from that album, but it was replaced by ‘Superfly Sister’ on the album.

‘In The Back’ did not eventually make the ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ album because, firstly that album had to have only (as the album’s title suggests) fast-paced and dance songs whereas ‘In The Back’ had a rather catatonic musical tempo, and secondly because ‘In The Back’ would have been too much as another one dark-themed addition next to the already four other dark-themed new songs on the album.

‘All In Your Name’, which exists also as ‘Prayer For Peace’, was recorded after 2001.

‘Seeing Voices’ had already been a fully finished and mixed song by May (1999), when it was played during a gathering of friends at the invitation of Michael Jackson.

It is not clear whether Michael Jackson considered also including ‘Seeing Voices’ in his ‘Invincible’ album.

‘Days In Gloucestershire’ was recorded in 2004 (in one of the Neverland’s bungalows where Michael Jackson was staying at the time due to the police’s raid in Neverland).

The recording sessions of ‘I Am A Loser’ began after two years from the release of the ‘Invincible’ album.

‘We've Had Enough’ is an outtake from the ‘Invincible’ album, although the song was originally conceived as a duet between Michael Jackson and his sister Janet Jackson with plans for a stand-alone single release of that duet song.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I hate the consistent fighting myself. But I cannot stand the ridiculous and provably false claims.

This. It’s very sad to see that every thread that is somehow speculative by nature turns into a fight over false claims. And it would be so easy to fix. It’s perfectly okay to talk about things we don’t know for sure, if we make it clear that we don’t know for sure.

 

[dethorro]

Rodney Jerkins also spoke about a similar number of more than 100 unreleased songs from the ‘Invincible’ album sessions.

What he meant was most certainly song ideas, song sketches, rough demos and finished songs.
There aren't 100 finished songs left over from the Invincible era or from any era for that matter.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

if we make it clear that we don’t know for sure.

:shrugmeme:

 

[ScreenOrigami]

What he meant was most certainly song ideas, song sketches, rough demos and finished songs.
There aren't 100 finished songs left over from the Invincible era or from any era for that matter.

This. I have a musician friend who is like that. He keeps pouring out song ideas all the time, and they materialize in the form of chord progressions he notes down, or a quick and rough recording with his phone. His house is scattered with scraps of paper with lyrics sketches. Some ideas end up as sheet music, and some simply exist in his head. Every time we meet – that’s once a week – he has something new he wants my opinion on, so if someone were to ask me how many songs he’s written, I would have to say I have no idea what even qualifies as a written song. :laughing:

 

[Fuzball]

‘In The Back’ belongs to the ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ era, it is an outtake from that album, but it was replaced by ‘Superfly Sister’ on the album.

‘In The Back’ did not eventually make the ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ album because, firstly that album had to have only (as the album’s title suggests) fast-paced and dance songs whereas ‘In The Back’ had a rather catatonic musical tempo, and secondly because ‘In The Back’ would have been too much as another one dark-themed addition next to the already four other dark-themed new songs on the album.

ITB was recorded during HIStory sessions. SS was chosen due to limited times restrictions only - it was the most completed song, so only little production (and hence time) was needed.

 

[JichaelMackson]

I don't understand why on that ultimate collection songs were chosen that were clearly unfinished (like "in the back"). This proves that there isn't much fully completed material left.

Anyway just gives us the freaking demo's I don't care.