Debates with the public

The way Evan went about getting a "confession" out of Jordan was disgraceful. In my opinion, this man should never have been a father. This is not how you approach anyone about this subject, but Evan has always looked dodgy. What else is interesting to me is that Jordan apparently was not impressed when Evan claimed he'd bugged his bedroom and "knew" what had been happening. I would expect a very different reaction had he been touched at all, crying, being scared, unimpressed appears to show that he wasn't worried because he knew nothing had happened which would explain why he wasn't worried about it.

It's undeniable that Evan was only interested in one answer. Another thing that really disturbs me is how Evan manipulates Jordan by saying that if something bad happens to MJ it will be Jordan's fault because he's the only one who could have saved MJ. For a parent who is supposed to believe that his son has been molested, he doesn't seem to care much about how Jordan felt, this is a really horrible move. He's also trying to put all the responsibility on Jordan's shoulders, but Evan would be the one trying to destroy MJ which means it would in fact be Evan's fault, not Jordan's. In my opinion, Evan should never have been a parent.
 
The anti-MJ love posting a list of "reasons" why "sane people" believe MJ was a molester.
I won't post that list here because is a full lie. But i have a doubt, one of the items says that Michael invoked the fifth amendment when he was asked under oath. What they mean with that? When did that happened (if it happened...)?
 
nikirox;4068584 said:
The anti-MJ love posting a list of "reasons" why "sane people" believe MJ was a molester.
I won't post that list here because is a full lie. But i have a doubt, one of the items says that Michael invoked the fifth amendment when he was asked under oath. What they mean with that? When did that happened (if it happened...)?


I have to smile about these lame ass struggle arguments by haters. They just show they do not have any real evidence.

I guess they mean that he did not testify. Of course, like all of their arguments this is just another fallacy. Testifying or not testifying does not prove anyone's guilt or innocence. There are several defense strategies and a defense lawyer can decide whether he feels the need for his client to testify or not. Mez said MJ was ready to testify but Mez felt that it was not needed because their case was strong enough anyway, so he did not call him. And as the verdict proved he was right.

If they mean 1993, MJ was meant to be deposed in the civil case but then the settlement happened so it never came to that. He did not actually invoke his fifth amendment right not to testify, simply the settlement happened. Again, as usual, what haters do not give you is a context which is explained here in this article about the settlement: http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/the-settlement/

What you have to know about invoking someone's fifth amendment right (ie. the right not to testify) is that there are different rules for it in a criminal trial and different in a civil trial. In a criminal trial a defendant can opt to invoke his fifth amendment right without consequences. In a civil trial however he cannot. The Chandlers game in 1993 was to push for the civil trial (trial for money) to get ahead of the criminal. From the above article:

Between September 1993 and January 1994 the disagreement between Jackson’s attorneys and Larry Feldman, the civil attorney representing the Chandlers was in regard to which proceedings should precede the other. Jackson’s attorneys wanted the criminal proceedings to go before the civil proceedings and losing this fight was basically what lead to the settlement.

In 2005, Jordan’s uncle, Ray Chandler in an article he wrote for his now defunct website (atgbook.net) claimed that Jackson’s attorneys tried to postpone the the civil lawsuit for six years, until the statue of limitations on child abuse expired. This is all he said, leaving the impression that Jackson’s side just wanted to hinder the process. However that’s a misleading half-truth. In actuality, Jackson’s attorneys attempted to postpone the civil lawsuit to allow the criminal proceedings to be held ahead of the civil proceedings. They did not try to hinder the criminal proceedings, in fact they tried to get them heard ahead of the civil proceedings.
The reason being if the civil trial is held before the criminal trial it can give the prosecution in the criminal trial a major advantage because they have the opportunity to monitor the civil trial and study the defense’s strategy. They can then, therefore, adjust their claims and strategy in kind. Furthermore, unlike in a criminal proceeding, where the defendant can constitutionally refuse to be deposed without consequence, a defendant in a civil trial cannot refuse to submit to a deposition free of consequence. The prosecution then can use the testimony from the civil deposition in the criminal trial and adjust their claims in kind.

In addition, the burden of proof, or the rules for admissibility of hearsay evidence in a civil trial are more relaxed than in a criminal trial. Jackson’s attorneys were certainly aware that a civil trial was riskier for a defendant, even if the defendant is innocent. And they knew that if Jackson lost the civil trial it could prejudice the jury in an upcoming criminal trial.

There are many precedents where civil proceedings have been frozen to allow the criminal trial ahead, preserving a defendant’s right to a fair trial and preventing that right from being violated. According to precedent cases:

“When both criminal and civil proceedings arise out of the same or related transactions, the defendant is entitled to a Stay of Discovery and trial in the civil action until the criminal matter has been fully resolved.” [2; page 116-117]


However, in regards to the case against Michael Jackson, all such attempts by Jackson’s lawyers to stay the civil proceeding were dismissed by Superior CourtJudge David M. Rothman. Apparently, the Chandler’s trump card was Jordan’s age. Here is what Geraldine Hughes (the legal secretary of Barry Rothman, the attorney who represented the Chandlers before Larry Feldman took over), writes in her book entitled Redemption:

"Michael Jackson lost all four motions. It was obvious from a legal standpoint of view that the scales of justice were not pointing in Michael Jackson’s favor. Instead, it was weighing heavily in favor of the 13-year old boy. Michael Jackson’s attorneys were applying precedent laws which were applied in a similar sexual battery case. Pacers Inc. v. Superior Court specifically held that it is improper invasion of the defendant’s constitutional rights not to stay civil proceedings where a criminal investigation is ongoing. But Mr. Feldman’s trump card was, “a child’s memory is developing,” and their inability to, “remember like an adult.” This law was designed to protect a small child’s ability to recall for prolonged periods of time after being a victim and/or witness to a crime. This case, however, involved a 13-year old boy, who was soon to be turning 14 years old.” [2; page 124]


Using this reasoning, Feldman filed a Motion for Trial Preference for the civil proceedings. “This is a special request to have the trial heard within 120 days after the motion is granted” [2; page 121]. In this regard, Hughes writes:

“Mr. Feldman filed a declaration by Dr. Evan Chandler in support of the Motion for Trial Preference which had one statement: that the child was under the age of 14. That was it! Dr. Chandler did not state anything else in his declaration, which is a written statement under oath declaring statements of truth. I have never seen a declaration concerning an important case this short in my entire legal career. A declarant will usually attest to several facts, especially concerning an important case like this one. They will also declare that said facts are true and correct and state their willingness to be called to competently testify under penalty of perjury. Is it possible that the information that Dr. Chandler declared was the only information he could competently testify under penalty of perjury?”[2; page 122]


Under extremely unfavorable conditions, Jackson and his attorneys might have found themselves in a position where they would have had to fight and defend Jackson on two fronts at the same time – in both a civil and criminal trial. On top of that they would have to prepare for a civil trial within 120 days, while the police for the criminal proceedings had seized all of Jackson’s personal records and refused to provide copies or even a list of what they took. “The District Attorney’s office was operating, with the blessings of the Court, in violation of Michael Jackson’s constitutional rights, and the Court was weighing heavily in favor of the 13-year old boy [2; page 133].”

After all motions to push the civil proceedings behind the criminal had been denied, the Jackson team was left between a rock and a hard place. The start of the civil trial was set for March, 1994 and Jackson was to be deposed at the end of January, beginning of February.

The Chandler’s motion papers accused Jackson and his attorneys of applying “delay tactics”, but they knew well that those “delay tactics” were all about getting the criminal proceedings heard ahead of the civil proceedings. Ray Chandler, in his book, All That Glitters, quotes a conversation that took place between Jordan Chandler’s father, Evan Chandler and their civil attorney, Larry Feldman and it proves that they were the ones utilizing delay tactics with regards to criminal proceedings:

“Later in the afternoon, after everyone had consumed their holiday repast, Larry Feldman called Evan with news they could all be thankful for. “Hey, Evan, you gotta hear this one. Howard Weitzman demoted Fields again. They definitely don’t want your deposition, or June’s deposition. They don’t want to preserve anything. If they’re gonna make a deal they don’t want anything on the record about Jackson.”


No shit! Larry, these guys are in a real mess.”


“Yeah, they ****ed this up unbelievably. What could be better? But I’m going forward. We’re going to push on. So far there ain’t a button I’ve missed. The only thing we gotta do is keep the criminal behind us. I don’t want them going first.”


Larry had said it before, but it hadn’t registered in Evan’s brain till now.


“You mean if they indict, the criminal case automatically goes before us?"

“Yeah.”

“Jesus Christ!”


“Right! So we don’t want that.”
[3; page 201-202]

It must be reiterated that only a criminal trial can send a perpetrator to jail; a civil trial can only result in a monetary award.
 
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Doesn't taking the fifth mean you have to declare (by yourself or by your lawyer) you do?

The defense showed videos of Michael talking in LWMJ so it's not like the jury didn't hear anything from Michael's POV

and there's also the 1996 depositions.

Tom stated clear that it was his idea not to call Michael which is not the same thing as taking the fifth. The prosecution could have called Michael themselves.
 
^ I suspect they mean more the 1993 case because in his book Ray Chandler goes on about MJ supposedly wanting to take the fifth and how that means he was guilty. BS of course, as explained above. The Chandlers know damn well what kind of legal game they were playing with this whole thing about forcing the civil process ahead of the criminal. And if not testfying is a sign of guilt then do they have the same standards for themselves? I mean it was them making accusastions, yet they were running scared from a criminal trial and then again they were running scared from having to testify in 2005.

We do not know if MJ had taken the fifth in 1994, it never got that far because the case was settled. I think his lawyers realized the risk of giving the prosecution an unfair advantage in the criminal case if they let MJ be deposed in the civil case, but we do not know if they had actually taken the fifth if it got to that point. They were certainly put in an unfair situation by the court system (ie. by the decision of letting the civil case get ahead of the criminal).

I fail to see the significance of it though, because MJ was always adamant in all forums, media, private etc. that he was innocent. He never said or indicated or implied anything else or anything ambigious about it. So it's not like he would have likely given different answers in a deposition/testimony. He would have probably admitted that he shared a bed with Jordan - and I guess his lawyers were afraid that would have been a bad look. But again, it's not like MJ ever made a secret of that. At his 2005 trial the jury and the whole world knew about it because he voluntarily talked about it on national TV and it was never made a secret at the trial either - regardless of whether MJ testified or not. It did not automatically mean a guilty verdict. It would have been the same in 1994.

I think haters use this argument because defendants taking the fifth is usually seen as a sign of guilt by many people (similar as a settlement). So they play on a fallacious meme/common beleif again. Like with the settlement you have to know the whole story behind a decision for taking the fifth. In MJ's case when you know what was going on with this whole criminal vs. civil case back and forth in 1993/94 then you have a very reasonable answer for why his lawyers were probably not happy about the prospect of him being deposed for the civil case. It simply would have violated his rights for a fair criminal trial. (But again, we do not know if they had actually taken the fifth if it got to that point.)
 
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Agreed ^.

Since there was never a trial in 1993 how can one make a point with an alleged intention that came up from the accusers? Idiotic. Once again they forget Michael was never ashamed to talk about his friendship with children and that he denied any inappropriate behavior numerous times.

And I suppose the fact Evan was far more stressed about the confidentiality agreement than Michael also means nothing to them anyway.
 
The anti-MJ love posting a list of "reasons" why "sane people" believe MJ was a molester.

Well there's another strike against them. A person's sanity is not based on whether or not they believe a person is innocent or guilty, this is a very immature move for these people but of course I'm not surprised. Here's what Psychology today has to say about insanity:

The Definition of Insanity is...
Perseverance vs. Perseveration
Published on July 27, 2009 by Ryan Howes, PhD, ABPP in In Therapy
42

I hear this every week, sometimes twice a day: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." No, it isn't.

To be clear, insanity is a legal term pertaining to a defendant's ability to determine right from wrong when a crime is committed. Here's the first sentence of law.com's lengthy definition:

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior. Insanity is a concept discussed in court to help distinguish guilt from innocence. It's informed by mental health professionals, but the term today is primarily legal, not psychological. There's no "insane" diagnosis listed in the DSM. There's no "nervous breakdown" either, but that's another blog.

Where did this saying come from? It's attributed to Albert Einstein (probably not), Benjamin Franklin (probably not), Mark Twain (probably not) and mystery writer Rita Mae Brown (probably so) who used it in her novel Sudden Death. It's not clear who said it first, but according to at least one blogger it's "the dumbest thing a smart person ever said." The catchy saying has gathered steam in the past few years (example I, II, III), and regardless of the source, it's gotten a lot of mileage.

I'm not in the habit of slamming cute sayings (with one exception), but I think there's a dark underbelly to this one. I've started hearing people use it in the service of avoidance, which is a defense mechanism. Rather than facing their fears, they grab on to this saying for protection against possible failure, pain or rejection. Some examples:

"I've asked out two women and been shot down both times, and you know the definition of insanity..."

"I jogged for a week and actually gained weight. They say the definition of insanity is ..."

"It's been a month and I'm still crying about his death. I'm living the definition of insanity."

The definition of insanity doesn't have anything to do with jogging. It's important to keep grieving, jogging and asking people for dates because these are areas of life that require some repetition and are quite sane. As a therapist, when I hear these statements I can collude with the protective bubble of the socially accepted catch phrase or challenge it. When met with the examples above, I'll challenge.

I think the confusion behind this statement is best illustrated by these two words:

Perseveration: the pathological, persistent repetition of a word, gesture, or act.

Perseverance: steady persistence in a course of action in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

Some forms of dementia, traumatic brain injury, anxiety and OCD can cause people to perseverate. They repeat words and tasks or try repeatedly to solve problems, but are left frustrated and unsatisfied. They're not necessarily insane, but stuck in a non-productive pattern due to a glitch in brain function. Some medications or CBT tools may prove helpful.

There's also the psychodynamic construct called repetition compulsion where people unconsciously repeat past conflicts in an attempt at mastery. We want to finish unfinished business, so sometimes we re-create old, unresolved problems for the potential of a better outcome. A typical example would be a guy who desired closeness with his emotionally unavailable mother as a child and therefore seeks out unavailable women in his adulthood. Or a woman who feels it's always her duty to invite her selection of apathetic friends to socialize. Or someone who is drawn to crowds of wealthier/smarter/prettier/etc. people where they always feel left out. They're all trying to finally conquer some old feelings of rejection. But even if they do succeed today, it doesn't erase the pain from the past.

Let's not confuse perseveration with perseverance. A persistent quest against a fear or toward a goal is often the best course of action. Repeating the same constructive behavior over and over, hoping (one day) for a positive result is difficult but virtuous. It's the effort made by eating oatmeal every morning, brushing your teeth after every meal and daily journaling. It's weekly therapy, consistent workouts and taking time for spirituality. It's Rudy trying over and over to get into Notre Dame. Or Mother Theresa tirelessly serving the poor. Or someone working to systematically overcome shyness, build healthier habits or communicate better with their spouse. It's a 12-stepper taking it "one day at a time." The qualities of perseverance, consistency, loyalty - these are beneficial to health and definitely not insane. And they're doing the same thing every day, hoping for some measure of progress.

So how do you tell the difference? Perseveration feels compulsive, hopeless, helpless, automatic and unsatisfying. There is a desire to stop, but stopping doesn't feel like an option. Perseverance feels like striving toward a noble goal, and whether or not it's reached it there is virtue in the effort.

Perseverance is a strong, valuable quality. Perseveration is a troubling issue needing clinical attention. Don't let a quaint saying blur this distinction.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/200907/the-definition-insanity-is

All this does is make them look childish and petty, plus they're refusing to acknowledge that we actually do have decent arguments in MJ's favour. I think the reason they can't admit that is because they're too biased and are unable to see or even understand things from a perspective outside of their own, and that is not something that's very favourable towards them.
 
A more in-depth look:

Legal Insanity
Assessment of the Inability to Refrain
Andrew Donohue, DO,corresponding author Vinay Arya, MD, Lawrence Fitch, JD, and Debra Hammen, LCSW-C

Abstract

Maryland’s test for a finding of legal insanity (not criminally responsible [NCR]) allows a defendant to be found legally insane due to either a lack of appreciation of wrongfulness (cognitive impairment [CI]) or lack of ability to refrain from illegal behavior (volitional impairment [VI]). During a four-year period, 1,446 defendants underwent in-depth (post screening) evaluations for the NCR plea at Maryland state hospitals. Of the 416 defendants assessed as NCR by the hospitals’ court-appointed evaluators, 44 (11%) were assessed as NCR due to VI alone. Diagnostically, the VI and CI groups were similar. Criminal charges were also similar, but the VI group was more likely to have been charged with murder. Many of the forensic evaluators concluded that the VI group was unable to refrain from illegal conduct based on considering a number of factors, including psychiatric symptoms and the defendant’s behavior as related to the offense. Some evaluators’ reports offered an opinion, but did not adequately explain what data they used to arrive at their conclusion. This paper examines the history of and rationale for a volitional test of insanity and how it is assessed by forensic evaluators.

Introduction

The topic of volitional impairment (VI) in insanity evaluations has long been a subject of some controversy. Legal tests for insanity have changed over time and differ by jurisdiction. Whether to consider one’s ability to refrain from committing a crime or irresistible impulse, due to mental illness has been one of the primary exculpatory variables. The major reasons for differing views on whether VI should be taken into account when assessing insanity include difficulty in assessing and quantifying VI, difficulty in differentiating it from poorly planned or impulsive acts, and society’s hesitancy to excuse the types of offenses and psychiatric impairments that may lend themselves to a insanity defense due to VI alone.1–3 Due to controversy surrounding the issue of whether VI should be included in consideration of legal insanity, the laws governing legal insanity differ greatly among states and have undergone substantial changes in many jurisdictions. Despite this, there is little data about the specifics regarding the application of this portion of the insanity defense and the criteria that evaluators use in evaluating these defendants and formulating an opinion on this issue.

The concept of irresistible impulse as a factor leading to an insanity finding has existed for a long time. In Parsons versus State (1886), a test of volition was proposed as an addition to the insanity rule of the time, the M’Naughten rule. At that time, it was believed that the M’Naughten rule failed to consider that while an insane defendant may not lose the ability to comprehend his actions and their wrongfulness, he might be unable to control his conduct. This case held that “Though conscious of [the nature of the act] and able to distinguish right from wrong, yet his will, the governing part of his mind, has otherwise been so completely destroyed that his actions are not subject to it, but are beyond his control.”4

In the 1950s and 1960s, the American Law Institute developed its Model Penal Code. This included a recommendation for a test for insanity.5 The test included both cognitive and volitional parts and it was widely adopted.

After the assassination attempt on President Reagan and the insanity acquittal of his assailant, there was a public outcry against the insanity defense. Over 40 bills to abolish the insanity defense were introduced to Congress.

The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Bar Association6 provided public statements on the issue. The American Psychiatric Association supported eliminating the volitional prong to the insanity defense, stating, “The line between an irresistible impulse and an impulse not resisted is probably no sharper than that between twilight and dusk…The concept of volition is the subject of some disagreement among psychiatrists. Many psychiatrists therefore believe that psychiatric testimony (particularly that of a conclusory nature) about volition is more likely to produce confusion for jurors than is psychiatric testimony relevant to a defendant’s appreciation or understanding.”7 The American Psychological Association recommended the review of existing literature as well as further research in order to determine whether “behavioral sciences are able to render informed opinions about behavioral control and whether such opinions assist the jury in making their scientific, moral and legal decisions regarding the defendant’s responsibility for the alleged acts.”8

Decisions regarding culpability in the presence of a possible loss of volitional control remain controversial. Critics have asserted that because it is difficult to collect objective data about the extent of lack of control, VI can be easily feigned.1,3 Opponents of a volitional test have argued, “Whatever the precise terms of the volitional test, the question is unanswerable—or can only be answered by ‘moral guesses’.”1 Furthermore, examples of psychiatric disorders that are thought of as having significant impulsive components include pyromania, kleptomania, paraphilias, and compulsive gambling. The courts and society as a whole appear not to wish to excuse the types of behaviors that result from these disorders,9–12 likely because these disorders are often characterized by repeated illegal and dangerous acts, from which society is concerned with protection, rather than determination of culpability.

As a result of these criticisms, federal jurisdictions eliminated VI as a part of the defense13–16 and many states followed suit. Federal and many state jurisdictions also prohibited psychiatrists from directly stating if it was their opinion that a defendant was legally insane, thereby reducing the conclusory nature of some psychiatric reports and testimony.

As of 2002, 16 states, including Maryland, have an insanity defense that allows defendants to qualify due to VI alone.17 Other states have incorporated a volitional test into determining if a defendant meets criteria for a different verdict, guilty but mentally ill. (Persons convicted as guilty but mentally ill receive the same criminal sanctions, including incarceration or death, as individuals who are simply found guilty, but they undergo an evaluation to determine if they require treatment within the department of mental health.)18 In Maryland, a defendant is not criminally responsible if “because of a mental disorder or mental retardation, [he] lacks substantial capacity to: [1] appreciate the criminality of that conduct; or [2] conform that conduct to the requirements of law.”19

The manner by which VI contributes to criminal offenses was examined by Morse. He described two basic modes of loss of volitional control. The first involved compulsion resulting in illegal action in which the actor was driven by an irresistible force. The second involved the concept of a constrained choice, whereby “an actor is not physically forced to act, but circumstances produce a dreadfully hard choice that leaves the actor without a reasonable alternative.”20 For example, an individual experiencing a delusional belief that his neighbor’s satellite dish is causing him harm may believe that failing to destroy the satellite dish will result in serious injury. This individual may be fully aware that it is wrong to destroy others’ property, but believes that given the (delusionally) perceived threat, he has no alternative.

The American Psychiatric Association’s statement argued that volitional tests may be unnecessary because defendants who meet the exculpatory criteria set forth in a volitional test will usually meet the criteria for a cognitive impairment (CI) test as well. However, those in favor of preserving a volitional test maintain that debilitating but readily treatable psychiatric disorders, such as bipolar disorder, result in loss of volitional control, while cognitive knowledge and appreciation of wrongfulness/criminality remain intact. To ignore VI, particularly in the case of bipolar disorder, would lead to the conviction of “a class of psychotic patient whose illness is clearest in symptomatology, most likely biologic in origin, most eminently treatable, and potentially most disruptive in penal detention.”21,22 As another example, in obsessive compulsive disorder, the possession of insight bears no relationship to an individual’s subjective sense of being able to control one’s behavior in performing compulsive acts.23 This underscores the potential for psychiatric illness to produce a loss of volitional control, while cognitive appreciation of wrongfulness is preserved.

In Maryland, insanity opinions were historically reached by the consensus of a board consisting of several psychiatrists. A retrospective study of their conclusions suggested that changing the criteria of the evaluations from an insanity test that included a volitional prong to one that did not would result in few changes in doctors’ opinions and would not reduce doctors’ disagreements about the ultimate issue.21

Supporters of the volitional prong of the insanity defense contend that an irresistible impulse can be quantified. There is limited research, but some data to indicate that VI can be characterized with a structured interview that is focused on elaborating factors contributing to loss of volitional control.24 Due to concerns that the defense of insanity due to VI can be misused, the defense’s application has been limited.

Different states have developed their own strategies of accounting for VI in assigning criminal culpability among the mentally ill. Crimes due to extreme emotions have been specifically excluded in Virginia case law: “Frenzy arising solely from the passion of anger and jealousy, regardless of how furious, is not insanity.”25 Virginia law prevents irresistible impulse from being invoked in cases that involve any planning or preparation prior to the crime. An antiquated Pennsylvania law required that a defendant must have committed the exact same act previously in order to qualify for insanity due to VI.26

It is clear that insanity (including cognitive, and depending on the jurisdiction, volitional prongs) is rarely brought forth as a defense and rarely contested in the United States,27 including Maryland.28,29 Studies suggest that insanity due to VI makes up a small sample of all defendants evaluated by experts for the court as insane. The study by Warren, et al., of 617 defendants referred to court experts in Virginia for evaluation of legal insanity revealed that 47 were assessed as legally insane and only five (10%) of these were assessed as insane due to a volitional test alone.30 An unpublished study in Ohio revealed that 15 percent of NGRI conclusions by court psychiatric evaluators were based on the volitional test alone, before Ohio eliminated the volitional portion of its insanity test in 1990.31

Despite all of the concern, pro and con, regarding the inclusion of VI in allowing a defendant to qualify for the insanity defense, there is little data about how frequently a defendant is assessed as or adjudicated insane by virtue of the volitional prong alone.

There is a body of literature and wealth of experience among prominent forensic practitioners available to guide the forensic examiner in considering relevant factors related to a defendant’s ability to refrain from an illegal act.32,33 Despite this, there is little data available when examining the factors that evaluators consider in formulating an opinion regarding a defendant’s ability to refrain from an illegal act. Furthermore, the American Psychiatric Association’s statement on the insanity defense professes the need to avoid psychiatric opinions of a conclusory nature, and suggests that these opinions are unduly common in the assessment of volitional capacity.

The current study was designed to quantify the proportion of assessments of legal insanity that are attributable to VI alone, to explore the differences between the volitionally impaired and cognitively impaired groups, and to examine how evaluators conceptualized cases in which they assessed a defendant as incapable of refraining from criminal behavior.

Method

This study was approved by the Institutional Review Board of the state of Maryland. In Maryland, the court orders forensic screeners (either a psychiatrist or a psychologist) to evaluate a defendant for the not criminally responsible (NCR) defense. If the forensic screener believes that the defendant is possibly NCR, then the examinee is referred for a more in-depth evaluation at one of Maryland’s state hospitals. Defendants with more serious charges are referred to the state’s only maximum security hospital, Clifton T. Perkins Hospital.

The in-depth forensic evaluation either occurs in an inpatient or outpatient setting, depending on which facility is utilized and whether the defendant has other active psycholegal issues (e.g., the defendant is assessed as incompetent to stand trial and admitted for competency restoration). The evaluator is either a psychiatrist or psychologist with training in forensic evaluations. If trainees are utilized, they are supervised by a forensically trained supervisor.

We reviewed the evaluators’ opinions regarding criminal responsibility to determine which portion of the insanity test was used to assess the defendant as (NCR). Defendants evaluated as NCR because they lacked substantial capacity to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law only (VI group), were separated from those who were assessed as NCR because they lacked substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of their conduct and those that both lacked substantial capacity to appreciate and conform (CI group). We then compared the demographic information, additional background data, nature of the offenses, and diagnoses of the VI group to all others assessed as NCR (CI only and the CI + VI groups).

Two of the authors further examined the VI group by reviewing reports to determine which factors evaluators relied upon in determining if a defendant lacked substantial capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law (or were volitionally impaired). Usually, the forensic evaluator cited a main factor that led to a defendant being assessed volitionally impaired; this factor was recorded. Additionally, we reviewed reports to determine which other factors identified in forensic literature and by leading forensic experts were examined and commented upon in the evaluator’s report in support of the evaluator’s opinion that the defendant was volitionally impaired at the time of the offense. These factors included symptoms of disorganization, hallucinations, command hallucinations, delusions and mania. Other factors were deferability (i.e., the ability to refrain from acting for a period of time) perceived negative consequences for failing to act, perceived alternatives, evidence of planning, and hypothetical tests of volitional ability (such as the policeman at the elbow test, in which the evaluator poses questions to determine if a defendant would have committed the same offense in the presence of a police officer, or despite the likelihood of immediate apprehension).

Results

We reviewed forensic mental health evaluations for all individuals assessed as not criminally responsible in Maryland during fiscal years 2002 to 2005. Data collected included demographic information (age, race, sex, marital status, and educational level), additional background data (the examinee’s history of outpatient or inpatient psychiatric treatment and history of arrest), psychiatric diagnoses and the nature of the offense for which the defendant was being evaluated. These data were formally provided by the forensic evaluator in a checklist, completed with the forensic report. Values representing the proportion of those found NCR by the volitional prong only versus those found NCR by the cognitive prong were formally compared using the Fisher's exact test. A comparison of the mean age could not be made because the standard deviation for each group was not available.

A total of 1,446 defendants underwent an in-depth evaluation for the insanity defense at a Maryland state hospital during fiscal years 2002 to 2005. Of these, 416 (29%) were assessed as NCR by the hospitals’ court appointed evaluators. 44 of the 416 defendants assessed as NCR (11%) were assessed as NCR due to VI alone while 372 (89%) were assessed as NCR due to CI. Of the 372 individuals assessed as NCR due to CI, 361 of them were assessed as NCR based on CI + VI, while only 11 were assessed as being cognitively but not volitionally impaired (CI only). Because the focus of this paper was to examine the role of VI , and because a relatively small number of individuals met criteria for CI only, the comparison group was made to include all individuals with CI (CI only and CI + VI).

There were few statistically significant differences between the group of defendants assessed as NCR due to VI when compared to the CI group across most variables. The VI group was more likely to be widowed, but aside from this, there were no significant differences in the demographics or background data. These findings are summarized in Table 1.

TABLE 1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T1/

Comparison of demographic data

The VI group was more likely to be charged with murder. Furthermore, The VI group was significantly more likely to be involved in driving while intoxicated or drug-related offenses. The CI group was more likely to have been charged with minor offenses. These findings are summarized in Table 2.

TABLE 2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T2/"]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T2/[/URL]

Comparison by offense type

There were no significant differences between the VI and CI groups with regard to psychiatric diagnoses. Psychotic disorders represented the most common diagnoses, with 62 percent (229) of the CI group and 57 percent (25) of the VI group falling into these categories. Schizophrenia was the most common diagnosis, comprising 31 percent of the CI group and 32 percent of the VI group. Mood disorders made up 32 percent from both the CI and VI groups. Twenty-three percent of the CI group and 21 percent of the VI group were diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Defendants with bipolar disorder in the VI group all were in the midst of a manic state at the time of their offense, while data regarding the proportion of manic verses depressed persons in the CI group were unavailable.

More controversial diagnoses were present, but uncommon in the VI group. For example, only 1.9 percent (7) of the CI group fell into the category “other disorders that may affect impulse control,” while four percent (2) of the VI group fell into this category. Of these two cases in the VI group, one was diagnosed with a personality disorder and one was diagnosed with personality change due to a medical condition. The results are summarized in Table 3.

TABLE 3
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T3/

Comparison of diagnoses

Typically, the court-ordered evaluator commented in his or her report that a particular factor was the main reason that the defendant lacked the ability to conform his or her conduct to the requirements of the law. Sometimes evaluators identified more than one main factor. These results are summarized in Table 4. Examples included poor impulse control, disinhibition, and various types of delusions. Delusional beliefs were most commonly cited by the evaluator as the main factor connecting the defendant’s mental illness to the offense, representing 18 of 44 samples or 37 percent of the total. In these cases, evaluators suggested that a defendant’s actions were (mis)guided by delusional beliefs. A defendant may have acted violently in the presence of what he perceived to be a threat, based on a delusional belief system. Poor impulse control was the second most commonly cited factor at 14 percent. These cases often involved defendants who were demonstrating significant symptoms of mental illness and were noted to be impulsive, both in regard to the offense and at other times. Mania was the main factor in 10 percent of cases. These defendants usually engaged in reckless and impulsive behavior, while in the midst of a manic episode. Command hallucinations were the main factor in 8.2 percent of cases. These cases involved individuals who had difficulty refraining from their offense because they were experiencing hallucinations telling them to commit the crime in question.

TABLE 4
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T4/

The main factor resulting in the loss of volitional control

Evaluators documented an average of 2.9 out of the 10 factors relevant to assessing a defendants’ ability to conform their conduct to the requirements of the law. The standard deviation was 1.9. Evaluators most often commented about a defendant’s symptoms, such as delusions, 64 percent (28) of the time. Other symptoms mentioned included mania 41 percent (18), hallucinations 39 percent (17), disoganization 32 percent (14), and command hallucinations 16 percent (7). Other factors considered were documented less often as relevant to the evaluators’ opinion than symptoms. These factors included evidence of planning 41 percent (18), concern for consequences of failing to act 39 percent (17), ability to defer acting for a period of time (deferability) 11 percent (5), consideration of alternatives nine percent (4), and hypothetical explorations two percent (1) (Table 5).

TABLE 5
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/table/T5/

Factors which evaluators cited in opining that a defendant lacked substantial capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law

Discussion

These results indicate that a relatively small percentage (11%) of defendants assessed by court appointed forensic evaluators as NCR meet criteria for a volitional test, while not meeting criteria for a cognitive test.

The VI group was more likely to be accused of murder or a drug-related offense and the CI group was more likely to have been accused of a minor offense. The reasons for these differences are unknown, but possibly could be related to the fact that violent offenses, such as murder and drug-related offenses (driving while intoxicated, possession or delivery of drugs) are often impulsive or reactive in nature, and perhaps more likely to occur in individuals who are disinhibited or excessively driven, such as manic individuals or persons with frontal lobe brain injuries. Aside from this, those assessed as NCR due to VI alone did not differ from the defendants assessed as NCR due to CIs in any substantial way.

Both groups had similar psychiatric diagnoses; serious psychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder, were the most common diagnoses. Less severe psychiatric illnesses were slightly more common in the VI group, but this did not represent a statistically significant difference.

These data suggest that many of the concerns about having an insanity test, which allows for a defendant to be found legally insane due to VI or irresistible impulse, may have been overstated. Because a small, but relevant percentage of all defendants who were evaluated as NCR met this criteria due to a volitional test alone, one might conclude that a volitional test is relevant and not overused.

Defendants assessed as NCR due to VI are as likely to have a major mental illness as defendants assessed as NCR due to CI. As evidence of this, the top four items cited as main factors contributing to loss of volitional control were delusions, poor impulse control, mania, and command hallucinations; these items represent symptoms that are associated with serious mental illness. As additional evidence, the individuals who were assessed as NCR due to VI had similar rates of serious psychiatric illnesses when compared to the CI group. Psychotic illnesses were the most common diagnoses in both the CI (61.5%) and VI (56.8%) groups.

Criticisms of tests of volition, including the criticism of the American Psychiatric Association, have suggested that evaluators’ opinions regarding VI are too often conclusory. In this study, evaluators documented an average of 2.9 out of 10 factors relevant to assessing VI. This result was consistent with the overly conclusory manner critics have eschewed. Evaluators more often commented on factors related to psychiatric symptoms, such as the presence of delusions, mania, or hallucinations, rather than other factors, but certain nonclinical factors, such as evidence of planning and consideration of consequences for failing to act, were often addressed. The standard deviation of 1.9 suggests that some evaluators documented many factors relevant to VI and explained these in arriving at their opinion, while others did not explain their reasoning in their report. This is consistent with the critics’ notion that evaluators must continue to strive to explain their opinions rather than provide conclusory statements.

The primary outcome measure in this study is the opinion of court-appointed forensic evaluators and not the actual court outcomes of these cases. These results cannot be generalized unless one assumes that this sample from Maryland is representative of defendants from all states with an insanity test that allows for VI. Furthermore, it is important to note that certain selection factors are relevant. In Maryland, Clifton T. Perkins Hospital performs forensic evaluations on individuals with more serious charges and this is also a primary training site for two forensic psychiatry fellowships. Therefore, individuals with more serious charges are more likely to be evaluated by a forensic psychiatrist-in-training, supervised by a board-certified forensic psychiatrist, and in an academic environment.

In conclusion, a minority of defendants assessed as NCR lack the ability to refrain, while they possess a cognitive understanding of wrongfulness, and this small percentage of defendants do not differ diagnostically from those assessed as legally insane when a cognitive test of insanity is applied. While there are established factors noteworthy in considering VI, evaluators often do not examine these in a systematized way. These findings suggest that forensic evaluators would meet the majority of the present critics’ recommendations more closely by giving less conclusions and more reasons.

Most states do not allow for VI in the consideration of legal insanity. This study suggests that to fail to account for VI in the application of the insanity defense may be a mistake for several reasons. First, persons assessed as insane due to VI have serious psychiatric diagnoses, consisting primarily of psychotic disorders. Second, their criminal charges are generally similar to others assessed as NGRI. Third, and perhaps most importantly, this group represents a small but relevant number of individuals who qualify for the insanity defense (according to court-appointed examiners). To neglect the issue of VI in considering legal insanity would result in the unavailability of this defense for a relevant group of individuals with major mental illnesses who were experiencing active and measurable symptoms related to their (alleged) offense.

This study’s exploration of the subject of the inability to refrain offers some insight into evaluators’ perspectives on this issue. Further questions remain; for example, how to quantify irresistible impulse, what are the actual legal outcomes to these cases and how do juries approach such cases. The task as set forth by the American Psychological Association’s position on the insanity defense was to conduct additional research to shed light upon the issue of VI as a part of the insanity defense. Clearly, further research is necessary to greater understand this complex issue.
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Contributor Information

Andrew Donohue, Dr. Donohue is from Forensic Psychiatrist, Delaware Psychiatric Center, New Castle, Deleware.

Vinay Arya, Dr. Arya is Attending Psychiatrist, Monmouth Medical Center, Long Branch, New Jersey.

Lawrence Fitch, Dr. Fitch is Maryland Director of Forensic Services, Jessup, Maryland.

Debra Hammen, Ms. Hammen is Chief, Systems Operation, Maryland Office of Forensic Services, Jessup, Maryland.
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References
1. Bonnie RJ. The moral basis of the insanity defense. Am Bar Assoc J. 1983;69:194–197.
2. Denno DW. A mind to blame: New views on involuntary acts. Behav Sci Law. 2003;21:601–618. [PubMed]
3. Melton GB, Patrila J, Poythress NG, Slobogin C. Psychological Evaluations for the Courts: A Handbook for Mental Health Professionals and Lawyers. Second Edition. New York, NY: Guilford Press; 1997.
4. Parsons v State, 81 Ala. 577,596, 2 So. 854, 866. 1886
5. ALI Model Penal Code, § 4.01. 1985
6. American Bar Association. Criminal Justice and Mental Health Standards. Chicago, IL; American Bar Association: 1984. Standing Committee on Association Standards for Criminal Justice.
7. American Psychiatric Association. Insanity Defense Work Group. Statement on the insanity defense. Am J Psychiatry. 1983;140(6):681–688. [PubMed]
8. American Psychological Association. Text of position on the insanity defense. APA Monitor. 1984;15:11.
9. U.S. v. Lewellyn, 723 F.2d 615, 618-20 (8th Cir. 1983)
10. U.S. v. Gould, 731 F.2d 45, 50-52 (4th Cir. 1984)
11. State v. Lowitzki, 285 Ill. 3d 770; 674 N.E. 2d 859 (1996) appeal denied 172 Ill. 2d 560, 679 N.E.2d 383 (1997)
12. U.S. v. Torniero, 735 F.2d 725, 50-52 (2nd Cir. 1984) cert. denied, 469 U.S. 1110 (1985)
13. Pub. L. No. 98–474, 98 Stat. 2057 (1984)
14. United States v. Lyons, 731 F.2d 243, 248 (5th Cir.1984), cert denied, 105 S. Ct. (1984)
15. Mossman D. United States v. Lyons: Toward a new conception of legal insanity. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1998;16(1):49–58. [PubMed]
16. Callahan L, Mayer C, Steadman HJ. Insanity defense reform in the United States: Post Hinkley. Mental Physical Disabil L Rep. 1987;2:54–59.
17. Giorgi-Guarnieri D, Janofsky J, Keram E, et al. Practice guideline: Forensic psychiatric evaluation of defendants raising the insanity defense. Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 2002;30(2):S3–40. [PubMed]
18. Pamer CA, Hazelrigg M. The guilty but mentally ill verdict: A review and conceptual analysis of intent and impact. J Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 2000;28(1):47–54. [PubMed]
19. CP § 3-109, Annotated Code of Maryland
20. Morse SJ. Causation, compulsion, and involuntariness. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1994;22(2):159–180. [PubMed]
21. Silver SB. Dissection of the prongs of ALI: A retrospective assesment of criminal responsibility by the psychiatric staff of Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1983;11(4):383–391. [PubMed]
22. Simon R, Aaronson DE. Callahan L, Mayer C, Steadman HJ (eds). The Insanity Defense A Critical Assessment of Law and Policy in the Post-Hinckley Era. New York, NY: Praeger Publishers; 1988. Governor’s task force to review the defense of insanity, state of Maryland, reported.
23. Rotter M. The relationship between insight and control in obsessive-compulsive disorder: Implications for the insanity defense. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1993;21(2):245–252. [PubMed]
24. Rogers R. APA’s Position on the Insanity Defense: Empiricism v. Emotionalism. Am Psychologist. 1987;42(9):840–848. [PubMed]
25. Thompson v Commonwealth, 193 Va. 704, 717, 70 S.E. 2d 284, 291-92 (1952)
26. Melton GB, Patrila J, Poythress NG, Slobogin C. Psychological Evaluations for the Courts: A Handbook for Mental Health Professionals and Lawyers. Second Edition. New York, NY: Guilford Press; 1997.
27. Cirincione C, Steadman HJ, McGreevy MA. Rates of insanity acquittals and the factors associated with successful insanity pleas. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1995;23(3):399–409. [PubMed]
28. Janofsky JS, Dunn MH, Roskes EJ, et al. Insanity defense pleas in Baltimore City: An analysis of outcome. Am J Psychiatry. 1996;153(11):1464–1468. [PubMed]
29. Janofsky JS, Vandewalle MB, Rappeport JR. Defendants pleading insanity: An analysis of outcome. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1989;17(2):203–211. [PubMed]
30. Warren JI, Fitch WL, Dietz PE, Rosenfled BD. Criminal offense, psychiatric diagnosis, and psycholegal opinion: An analysis of 894 pretrial referrals. Bull Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 1991;19(1):63–69. [PubMed]
31. Resnick PJ. Personal communication. 2006 Sep 26;
32. Noffsinger SG, Resnick PJ. Insanity defense evaluations. Directions in Psychiatry. 1999;19:325–338.
33. Rodgers R, Shuman D. Conducting Insanity Evaluations. Second Edition. New York, NY: Guilford Press; 2000.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710106/
 
Thanks, I know what is to invoke the fifth, I just wanted to know where are they placing that situation because it didn't happen in the trial, as far as I am concerned.

They quote exactly: "The fact that, when asked under oath if he sexually abused boys, Michael Jackson refused to answer. He instead invoked the fifth amendment on grounds he might incriminate himself".

They do not take into account that most of us have read or followed throughout the trial and we know what things happened and what things clearly not.

They talk as if it hadn't even existed such trial.
They always speak in reference to the Chandlers, which is all based in speculations as "if had been or hadn't been", they barely name the Arvizo case. That speaks volumes.
 
^^its possible they may be referring to that deposition Michael took in Mexico (?). It's on YouTube and it's after he had some dental surgery.
He never says "I invoke the 5th" of course, but when they bring up Brett Barnes and Macauley, his attorney interrupts with "don't answer that."

I'm fairly certain that these trollers are stretching some scenario like that.
 
^^its possible they may be referring to that deposition Michael took in Mexico (?). It's on YouTube and it's after he had some dental surgery.
He never says "I invoke the 5th" of course, but when they bring up Brett Barnes and Macauley, his attorney interrupts with "don't answer that."

I'm fairly certain that these trollers are stretching some scenario like that.


Not the deposition that's after the dental surgery, is the one from 1996. And if they are citing that deposition... just... LOL.
 
You're right but you know the one I'm thinking of. Sometimes these people just stretch anything just to get a rise out of the defenders. And yes it's a definite LOL at them.
 
They must be getting desperate and running out of options if their using the '96 deposition.
 
They quote exactly: "The fact that, when asked under oath if he sexually abused boys, Michael Jackson refused to answer. He instead invoked the fifth amendment on grounds he might incriminate himself".

Wow, that's a straight up lie. They make it look like MJ was asked about the allegations under oath during the trial or during the 1993/94 case and he remained silent when asked if he molested boys. But I'm not surprised that they again make up things that never happened, playing on the ignorance of their audience. That's the only thing they can operate with: lies.

I watched the whole Mexico deposition but I can't remember him being asked about the allegations there. Or what 1996 deposition? If you mean this one, he is not asked if he molested boys. He is just asked if he is aware of certain allegations and claims against him. His reaction speaks volumes. He obviously cannot even bear the thought of molesting boys, let alone committing such things. If this is what haters trying to twist into what they say I wonder if they also attach this video to that and if they explain what this litigation was about (not about the allegations). As always they are taking things out of their context and twist them. The trademark of hater "arguments" because they do not have real arguments.

 
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The media introduced the 1996 as if there's something wring about it. Which is bizarre because not only there's wrong with it... It actually clears his name. Michael never took the fifth. And the questions he was told not to answer are irrelevant to the Chandlers, anyway.
 
^ It was first published by the News of the World and yeah I remember they tried to make it out to be something suspicious, when actually it's the opposite. MJ very vehemently shakes his head while being asked those questions and it's obvious that it pains him and deeply upsets him even to think about those allegations.
 
I think Michael's has a very honest demeanor and I think any body language analyzer will confirm he's telling the truth in many parts of his interviews and ALL of his depositions.

In Prime Time Live when I look at his body language when he talks about the case (I'm no expert but still) I see a man who's beyond honest, he's never breaking eye contact, his facial expressions are right in place, but not in a robotic way, he smiles when it was appropriate (unlike others we know... um.) - he's adamant when he should be, but not in an arrogant way. When he was unsure he admitted it and wasn't totally dismissive to some of the questions that felt more like an accusation. I think someone who's guilty would have had some more extreme reactions and won't say things like "unless people send me things I don't know", "not that I know of" but more definite NOs even when unsure.


I know people might say Michael is very trained in interviews and all that but if they're going to say that, then they can't use his body language in any kind of video. I think his body langugae was always very telling and we can tell right away if he's being totally honest or if he's avoiding the truth like in some parts in LWMJ (Nothing about Gavin though, just the silly tabloid questions). His 1996 deposition shows exactly how I would imagine a man who's accused in false allegations would react. Nothing there shows guilt, and I call anyone who feels differently to point out exactly what is so incriminating about it except their prejudice and ignorance in humans behaviour.

Then again News Of The World are also the ones who said Michael "looks awkward" in that adorable 1997 video with baby Prince next to him so I think they have a problem with basic understanding of human beings.

 
Then again News Of The World are also the ones who said Michael "looks awkward" in that adorable 1997 video with baby Prince next to him so I think they have a problem with basic understanding of human beings.

Oh, I think they know well that there is nothing awkward in that footage, as there is nothing suspicious in the 1996 footage. They just try to manipulate their audience into thinking what they want them to think. (Much like Bashir's manipulative narration.) They expect the weak-minded and easily manipulated to follow their interpretation, even though that's not what we actually see on that footage.

I agree that MJ was actually not a good liar. And for someone who was trained in interviews IMO he actually often had a problem with expressing himself clearly or in a sophisticated way, which is what often got him in trouble and open the door for those (often deliberate) misunderstandings. Frank Cascio talks about this in his book regarding the sharing bed issue and Macaulay Culkin said something similar in his interview with Larry King.

Cascio:

“In Bashir’s interview, Michael was shown holding Gavin’s hand and telling the world that kids slept in his bed. Anyone who knew Michael would recognize the honesty and innocent candor of what he was trying to communicate. But Bashir was determined to cast it in a different light. What Michael didn’t bother to explain, and what Bashir didn’t care to ask about, was that Michael’s suite at Neverland, as I’ve said before, was a gathering place, with a family room downstairs and a bedroom upstairs. Michael didn’t explain that people hung out there, and sometimes they wanted to stay over. He didn’t explain that he always offered guests his bed, and for the most part slept on the floor in the family room below. But, perhaps more important, he didn’t explain that the guest were always close friends like us Cascios and his extended family.

One of the biggest misconceptions about Michael, a story that plagued him for years following the Bashir documentary, was that he had an assortment of children sleeping in his room at any given time. The truth was that random children never came to Neverland and stayed in Michael’s room. Just as my brother Eddie and I had done when we were younger, the family and friends who did stay with Michael, did so of their own volition. Michael just allowed it to happen because his friends and family liked to be around him.


What Michael said on Bashir’s video is true. “You can have my bed if you want. Sleep in it. I’ll sleep on the floor. It’s your’s. Always give the best to the company, you know.” Michael had no hesitation about telling the truth because he had nothing to hide. He knew in his heart and mind that his actions were sincere, his motives pure, and his conscience, clear. Michael innocently and honestly said, “Yes, I share my bed, there is nothing wrong with it.” The fact of the matter is, when he was “sharing” his bed, it meant he was offering his bed to whoever wanted to sleep in it. There may have been times when we slept up there as well, but he was usually on the floor next to his bed, or downstairs sleeping on the floor. Although Bashir, for obvious reasons, kept harping on the bed, if you watch the full, uncut interview, it’s impossible not to understand what Michael was trying to make clear: when he said he shared his bed, he meant he shared his life with the people he saw as family.


Now, I know that most grown men don’t share their private quarters with children, and those who do so are almost always up to no good. But that wasn’t my experience with Michael. As one of those kids who, along with his brother, had any number of such sleepovers with Michael, I know better than anyone else what did happen and what didn’t happen. Was it normal to have children sleep over? No. But it’s also not considered especially normal for a grown man to play with Silly String or have water balloon fights, at least not with the enthusiasm Michael brought to the activities. It’s also not normal for a grown man to have an amusement park installed in his backyard. Do these things make such a man a pedophile?

I’m quite sure that the answer is no.


The bottom line: Michael’s interest in young boys had absolutely nothing to do with sex. I say this with the unassailable confidence of firsthand experience, the confidence of a young boy who slept in the same room as Michael hundreds of times, and with the absolute conviction of a man who saw Michael interact with thousands of kids. In all the years that I was close to him, I saw nothing that raised any red flags, not as a child and not as an adult. Michael may have been eccentric, but that didn’t make him a criminal.


The problem, though, was that this point of view wasn’t represented in the documentary. Listening to Michael talk, people who didn’t know him were disturbed by what he was saying, not only because his words were taken out of context but also because Bashir, the narrator, was telling them they SHOULD BE disturbed. The journalist repeatedly suggested that Michael’s statements made him very uncomfortable. Michael was quirky enough without the machinations of a mercenary newshound, to be sure, but there’s no doubt that Bashir manipulated viewers for his own ends. His questions were leading, the editing misguided. As I watched the broadcast, it seemed to me that Bashir’s plan all along had been to expose Michael in whatever way he could in order to win the highest ratings he could for his show.”

And Mac at around 1:30

[video=youtube;QeQFGT5Jbgo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeQFGT5Jbgo[/video]


But even with this problem of not expressing himself well he was always very adamant, not in any way ambigious, uncertain etc. about the allegations. He was never hesitant when answering such a question, never ambigious. He was always very adamant and vehement, passionate and candid in denying them and you could see how deeply this upset him. Another example of it is this:

[video=youtube;w270PK4o2_c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w270PK4o2_c[/video]

Now, compare those passionate denials by Michael to the way Sandusky asnwered questions like that. He denies it, but that's not the point, but the way he does it: asking back, being hesitant in how to answer it, thinking long before he actually gives an answer etc. It's not at all a passionate, vehement denial like Michael's, on the contrary, hesitant, ambigious and uncertain.

[video=youtube;bbSaFP_oNEc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbSaFP_oNEc[/video]
 
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Yes that's the deposition I was referring to where he wears the red shirt. I know he never said such a thing but I was trying to figure out what these people might be referring to when making such a statement.

If people are debating they usually try to base their argument in some kind of fact. You'd think.

But again they are probably just lying and making stuff up out of thin air. These are crazy people.

I'm glad you posted all these videos and also posted the Sandusky one-when I saw that interview at the time I knew without question that I was right to believe Michael in 93. The difference is astonishing.

And good to post them (along with sinister voice overs) for everyone who has not seen them to get a better picture of the story. I saw all of these years after the trial except for the statement at Neverland, of course because it was on national TV.
And it really bothered me even more because it was so obvious that the whole attack was ungrounded and just insane on the medias part.

And I will never understand it-

Again, I just think it's good for you all to shoot down these people on different boards for all the people reading and not knowing the true story.

I'm pretty sure that's how I stumbled on to this club by reading comments on different news sites after Michael's death.

(And good for you for pointing out the commentary calling Michael awkward when holding Prince. Do they think we don't have eyes? I just shake my head.)
 
Wow, that's a straight up lie. They make it look like MJ was asked about the allegations under oath during the trial or during the 1993/94 case and he remained silent when asked if he molested boys. But I'm not surprised that they again make up things that never happened, playing on the ignorance of their audience. That's the only thing they can operate with: lies.

I watched the whole Mexico deposition but I can't remember him being asked about the allegations there. Or what 1996 deposition? If you mean this one, he is not asked if he molested boys. He is just asked if he is aware of certain allegations and claims against him. His reaction speaks volumes. He obviously cannot even bear the thought of molesting boys, let alone committing such things. If this is what haters trying to twist into what they say I wonder if they also attach this video to that and if they explain what this litigation was about (not about the allegations). As always they are taking things out of their context and twist them. The trademark of hater "arguments" because they do not have real arguments.


They don't even have a specific font, but if you ask them for proof they must send you this. Although i don't think that this "proof" works even with someone who isn't aware of what's going on in that deposition.

And clearly he isn't invoking the fifth and don't even leaves an open window to think something similar to that.

I hadn't thought to relate that deposition to that "fact", either. I have in my memory phrase by phrase of what he says in that video and it didn't went to my mind to relate it with their "fact".

The people who use this phrase and other inconsistencies are the followers of MJfacts, which coincidentally, are ALWAYS the same people, I do not think that they are more than 5 people belonging to that group of harassers.

They often send the list of items with their twisted "facts" when they argue with fans.

For my part I do not spend my energy to argue with these guys, it's a flat discussion, and they are clearly on the side of harassment and not the "truth", the truth that they made up.

Now that I realize it's not just that they get things out of context (plus they do) but they even have the nerve to invent things up, which clearly can't fool anyone...


Ps: A fan told me that Dimond and Stacy Brown aren't just their sources, but that Radar Online is using MJfacts as a source to made up "news"... So this end up to be anything but a vicious circle
Now i don't know what should I do, cry or laugh?
 
The people who use this phrase and other inconsistencies are the followers of MJfacts, which coincidentally, are ALWAYS the same people, I do not think that they are more than 5 people belonging to that group of harassers.

They often send the list of items with their twisted "facts" when they argue with fans.

Yes, and you can tell if a person in a comment section is from that group of people, because they always use the same, tired, twisted arguments over and over again. And I suspect most of them cannot even think for themselves, because they even used the same terms, the exact same words all the time. So that a lot of times it looks like they just copy & paste these arguments from somewhere.

For my part I do not spend my energy to argue with these guys, it's a flat discussion, and they are clearly on the side of harassment and not the "truth", the truth that they made up.

Yes, I do not engage with them either. Engaging with them just fuels their activity.


Ps: A fan told me that Dimond and Stacy Brown aren't just their sources, but that Radar Online is using MJfacts as a source to made up "news"... So this end up to be anything but a vicious circle
Now i don't know what should I do, cry or laugh?

Yes, they hijacked RO by sending them salacious stuff (what low brow tabloid could resist something like that?). I also think Robson and Safechuck themselves use these hater websites as sources to create their stories.
 
Michael had special rooms built in his theatre, at Neverland, for children with special needs. Michael wanted to help children, because the old saying was 'children should be seen and not heard.'

It's why Michael shared his bed with children, because children weren't usually treated with such graciousness. It was usually accorded to adults, not children. The taint that Martin Bashir insinuated will forever stain Marin Bashir's reputation.

The-Bedroom-At-Neverland-Movie-Theatre-michael-jackson-34922531-400-320.jpg
 
Whenever someone says that they KNOW Michael was guilty I always come back with this sarcastic response

Oh, so you KNOW that he was guilty do you? Wow, you must have some amazing ground breaking evidence that slipped passed the police, and the FBI. And to think all this time you had this amazing evidence and you didn't testify in court in 2005. You could have put a child molester behind bars, but you just sat back and let him walk free
 
^ I haven't seen it full. I think this is the only part of it out there.
 
^ I haven't seen it full. I think this is the only part of it out there.

Thought as much. As far as I know, the only depositions in full available are the Mexico and Dangerous ones. I did see a clip of Mike talking about a Cash Cow? a couple years ago though... Ha-ha-ha.
 
Whenever someone says that they KNOW Michael was guilty I always come back with this sarcastic response

Oh, so you KNOW that he was guilty do you? Wow, you must have some amazing ground breaking evidence that slipped passed the police, and the FBI. And to think all this time you had this amazing evidence and you didn't testify in court in 2005. You could have put a child molester behind bars, but you just sat back and let him walk free

Lol. There are a lot of people out there who don't seem to understand the difference between knowing and thinking. You can't claim to know something unless you can prove it, and a lot of people have trouble understanding the difference between proof and speculation too. A recipe for disaster.
 
^ I thought that showed on the mjfacts website, on their 'evidence is mounting up' page, it was just a list of he said she said. I don't know how that is evidence but ok. Annoying but in a way that's good because it shows how they don't actually have evidence, sad thing is that people who already have their own opinion would probably take it as evidence
 
^ I thought that showed on the mjfacts website, on their 'evidence is mounting up' page, it was just a list of he said she said. I don't know how that is evidence but ok. Annoying but in a way that's good because it shows how they don't actually have evidence, sad thing is that people who already have their own opinion would probably take it as evidence

Even the he said-she saids are not presented in their full context on that page. Like they would use a pro-prosecution testimony but never present how that "witness" was slaughtered on cross-examination and how he or she was proven to be non-credible. The same game as what the media played in 2005.
 
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