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Debates with the public

Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Pah! What do these people know? They no nothing, they're the ones who are nuts, not us. They can saw I'm obsessed all they want, but I'm just gonna tell them obsession means nothing to me and I don't believe in it.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I hear ya analogue. The thing that frustrates me is that people who aren't fans that believe in the allegations won't take the time to research or listen to the defense, but they have no problem commenting about how he was guilty. It's really frustrating because if they would just give me the time of day to sit down and explain the details of both cases, it may change their mind. But, because they're not fans, they don't want to waste their time listening, yet they have no problem wasting time passing judgment on something they don't actually know anything about. I read this quote by Chris Colfer awhile back that is a pretty accurate portrayal of people's perception of MJ: "The world will always choose convenience over reality. It is easier to hate, blame, and fear than it is to understand. No want wants the truth; they want entertainment."
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I've seen the same condescending pattern of behaviour, there are some who take the position that anyone who does not think MJ was guilty must be a "blind fan", that they must think he was perfect and that they must think MJ couldn't be guilty because he was a famous man who could sing and dance well. This quick conclusion they make is a problem because there are possibly millions of people they're talking about, and a blanket statement like that is not going to accurately sum up the opinions of that many people. The fact that so many people seem to take it so personally when someone says they think MJ was innocent worries me. If a person needs to shame, verbally attack and treat another person as though they're stupid for having a different view without giving the person a reasonable chance to explain their position then it's unquestionably obvious that the logical flaw in thinking is with them and their current level of emotional maturity.

People can get very emotional very quickly on this subject but making it personal isn't necessary. Refusal to acknowledge or listen to a different perspective could be an indicator of bigotry. These people hold a view they feel is held by the majority and we have an uphill battle going against the grain. It's very tiring and frustrating when people become dismissive but if that's the attitude they choose to take then I think the problem is with them. If people can't discuss things like adults they aren't worth conversing with on this subject at all.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

If their fighting back against you that strongly then they are the ones who are weak in their argument and unsure of their position. They are afraid to admit their wrong. I think for some people, not all but some, it's too hard to see the truth about Michael and what was done to him, so they prefer to go with the worst scenario. And if popular opinion changed in Michael favour, you bet a lot of them would be right out in front supporting him.

They may fight fiercely against him in public, but I'll bet a lot of them jam to him in private.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Condor9333 said:
I know, i feel the same.
BTW most of people wo arent his fans, have opinion about him that they pulled together by reading gossip magasine and yellow print and all tose media negatives.
I really like when MJ is asked why he made this film (In Private Home Movies) he sais: "Well i thought its time to do so, because many people have opinion about me but they didnt even met me. They dont know me. Im simply Michael Jackson."
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That was Michael's agenda with both the Private Home Movies and the Bashir doc.

But I just find it really sad that he felt that he had to even do that-because of simple, harmless little stories (whether he planted them or not) about the hyperbaric chamber and the Elephant Man Bones)just to add to his mystique backfired on him in such a big way. With any OTHER star those stories would have been read, people would laugh, and would forget the next day. I did. But this time, people believed it literally, and wanted more and more and more. I don't think Michael realized what a huge phenomenon he had already become by then, and the public was insatiable.

You can't really argue with people, although I have from time to time, on comment boards, just because I was in an angry mood. Because people like that really don't want to listen to you, they don't want to know any facts, and they end up calling you a pedophile or worse.
 
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Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I have never had that problem. And really people like that just stupid and jealous of MJ and people who are successful. It makes them feel good about themselves.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

^^i agree. The comment boards I see on news sites are people you can't take seriously. Once in a blue moon I'll break and say something but that's it.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I've seen someone online imply that a fan he was arguing with was a pedophile. It's a really low tactic to use and people like that don't deserve to be taken seriously or respected.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I can handle arguing with people online and most people I know in real life, they've failed shaming me but my mother. She's the typical gullible person who believes all the crap media spouts, she gives opinions without knowing what the hell she's talking about but she doesn't allow me to speak to say why it's all bs. She doesn't care to know the truth but she's the one who brings Michael up but in her eyes I'm an idiot, crazy and pathetic for defending him, I don't know how to handle a person who doesn't allow exposing viewpoints and it's unwilling to debate.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I also don't think the media does fans any favors either because of the types of fans they would usually show on TV. Generalizing all fans into the "fanatic" category. Back in 2009, my dad would have probably included me in that same camp, which is far from the truth. :smilerolleyes: Not taking you seriously because they believe you worship Michael's feet, and scream hysterically at the sight of him in person or photos or videos (well maybe only occasionally lol.)
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

CaptainEoLove85 said:
I also don't think the media does fans any favors either because of the types of fans they would usually show on TV. Generalizing all fans into the "fanatic" category. Back in 2009, my dad would have probably included me in that same camp, which is far from the truth. :smilerolleyes: Not taking you seriously because they believe you worship Michael's feet, and scream hysterically at the sight of him in person or photos or videos (well maybe only occasionally lol.)
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I tried to watch The Trial and Triumph of the King of Pop and it actually made me cringe and turn it off because of the fans. Contrary to popular opinion, most of us are actually really intelligent and well spoken, but we don't often get a chance to speak our voices to the public because we don't fit the persona that the media would like to portray MJ fans as, which is ... well ... out of their d**n minds to be honest. People like Respect and Ivy for example have really shown (for me at least) how it's possible to be a fan and still be mature, well educated on Michael Jackson facts, and yet completely composed and *shock* normal.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Absolutely true. Apologies to anybody here that was in Santa Maria but all I ever saw on TV were "crazy" fans and that's where the media played me.

Searching the internet after Michael's death led me to read intelligent, mature and level headed information from fans that shocked me-and actually led me here.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

barbee0715 said:
Absolutely true. Apologies to anybody here that was in Santa Maria but all I ever saw on TV were "crazy" fans and that's where the media played me.

Searching the internet after Michael's death led me to read intelligent, mature and level headed information from fans that shocked me-and actually led me here.
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That how it was for me too in the bold
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I don't remember a time when the media has shown calm rational fans. I think like other here that this plays a part in people being more unwilling to listen to what we have to say, people have been given a picture about MJ fans that we're crazy and overly emotional so there will always be people who assume that we're like this from the beginning rather than waiting for us to show how we really are. I much prefer to speak to people online about the allegations, especially if that person is going to have an attitude about it. If I'm discussing it online from my home computer I have all the information I need at my fingertips which is something I probably won't have if I'm speaking to someone in person.

It can take time to find things sometimes because there's a lot of information, when you're speaking to people online you aren't obligated to reply immediately so you can take your time finding the relevant documents and write up a concise reply that you've had the time to think about more carefully. If I have someone give e an attitude in person I'm likely to tell them straight up that I won't put up with being condescended to or attacked on a personal level. I also won't tolerate being interrupted when giving an answer to a question and one question at a time is what I'll ask for rather than having someone bombard me with numerous questions that they want me to answer within an unreasonable amount of time.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

The only time I screamed and got hyped over Mike was when he was on stage and I was in the audience, lol! Most fans of any artist are super excited when they are performing, but if they're just walking down the street or getting into/out of a limo, there's no reason to be tripping (imho). I would have felt embarrassed or stupid to have a meltdown (crying, screaming, fainting) in front of him and he wasn't performing! Famous people are still PEOPLE, first and foremost.

I don't recall the fandom being as extreme (for lack of a better word) back in the 70s and pre-Thriller. We were excited to see Mike and his bros, but the reactions weren't like the post-Thriller fandom. The higher Mike's star rose, the higher the fanaticism rose with it. That's also around the time when Mike became more imprisoned by his fame.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I became a fan of MJ's music in 1988. I was eight years old, and my uncle played a cassette tape for me; I was hooked after that. My aunt even had a VHS tape, of us performing "Beat It" as kids in the living room; I wouldn't be shocked if that tape was still boxed up somewhere.

The first allegations came in 1993, when I was 13. I was so clueless back then, I didn't even know what "molestation" meant as a word. After finding out, I was horrified...then even more so, once news hit that he'd paid off Jordan's family. I was raised in a super-religious, fear-driven home, by a different aunt and uncle who believed people never changed. My sister was also raised there, and to this day, she says only God Himself could convince her Michael was innocent. As both a fan of his music and her brother, hearing that really hurt.

For years, I didn't know what to think; confusion was the norm for me in this situation. When the 2003 allegations came around, my immediate thought was "Oh, God...please, no. Don't let this be true." Michael's music had helped me through so many depressing times in my life, and the possibility of him being a sexual predator scared me to my core. Most news outlets screamed about it almost 24/7 for months; I had to quit watching TV because shows were getting interrupted during midday for updates on the case. The day before the verdicts, I prayed like crazy, fearing for Michael's safety and my own sanity. With each report of "not guilty", I was both relieved and in shock. I was still unsure how to process everything, until about 2 years ago when I first read Aphrodite Jones' book. Nowadays, I'm 99% certain he never molested Gavin Arvizo, but the Chandler accusations still echo in my mind sometimes. I was actually relieved when I found out Jordan's father had shot himself, which is a horrible thing to feel about another person. I felt bad for Jordan, since I grew up without a Dad of my own...but I also thought to myself, "Evan must've set the whole thing up; why else would he kill himself, so soon after MJ's acquittal?"
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

respect77 said:
Why is that? What makes you insecure about the Chandler allegations?
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I think its mostly the echoing from my upbringing, like a mantra that says "innocent people don't pay...period." When you're raised around a lot of fear, you suspect everybody, even when you know its not healthy or rational to do so. After a while, it becomes a part of you...and habits like that are very difficult to break. I was actually abused once as a child, so the subject is also more personal for me.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Moviefan2k4 said:
I think its mostly the echoing from my upbringing, like a mantra that says "innocent people don't pay...period." When you're raised around a lot of fear, you suspect everybody, even when you know its not healthy or rational to do so. After a while, it becomes a part of you...and habits like that are very difficult to break. I was actually abused once as a child, so the subject is also more personal for me.
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If you'd like to read about the settlement a bit let me recommend this for you: http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/the-settlement/

And also these:

http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/how-did-the-allegations-of-the-chandlers-emerge/

http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/the-chandlers-monetary-demands/
 
Here's some discussion on a YouTube video about awkward celebrity interviews that my friend Dan and I participated in:

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I listed possible reasons for why the settlement may have occurred but refrained from saying these must have been the reasons, I wanted to make sure people understood that I was talking about possibilities, detractors always use settlement as possible evidence of guilt so I was giving reasons other than guilt as to why a settlement happened. It'll be interesting to see if I get a reply, there have been a couple of occasions where I've replied to other comments on the same video disproving claims and the person has replied to other people's comments but not mine. Ignoring evidence won't make it go away but it says a lot when someone is challenged with facts and doesn't reply.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Oh, man; after reading some of that, I almost feel like resurrecting Evan Chandler and shooting him myself. What kind of hate does a man have to allow into his heart, to use his own child as a pawn in a sickening extortion attempt? I really feel sorry for Jordan now; I read he abandoned both his parents in the mid-90s and changed his name, because he hated how they both had manipulated him.
 
These people ALWAYS make up some scenario in their minds about how they imagine it went when that has absolutely nothing to do with the facts of this case. I really cannot believe how people do not realize that they cannot judge a case without knowlede about it and making up things and how you imagine it went will not replace knowledge.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Moviefan2k4 said:
Oh, man; after reading some of that, I almost feel like resurrecting Evan Chandler and shooting him myself. What kind of hate does a man have to allow into his heart, to use his own child as a pawn in a sickening extortion attempt? I really feel sorry for Jordan now; I read he abandoned both his parents in the mid-90s and changed his name, because he hated how they both had manipulated him.
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I don't feel sorry for Jordan now. He's a grown man and he still hasn't come forward to clear Michael's name. He's a coward
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

analogue said:
I don't feel sorry for Jordan now. He's a grown man and he still hasn't come forward to clear Michael's name. He's a coward
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Money is the root of all evil and the legality repercussions alone are enough to deter him. I very much doubt he will ever come forward.
 
The ideas people have about all of this are so far from accurate and they have no idea. Sometimes people still throw me something I haven't heard before and I have no idea where they're getting the ideas from.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I believe Michael Jackson most likely had inappropriate sexual incidents with children. But I don't think anyone will ever know for sure one way or the other and I don't think the appreciation of art should depend on the personal virtues of the artist. I love Michael Jackson's music and I don't love it any less just because it seems he may have been attracted to young boys. When people criticize me for being a fan of Michael Jackson, it doesn't bother me. I've worked in show business most of my life and I've seen first hand how some of the most beloved entertainers have dark secrets. Entertainment is just that, entertainment. I'm not going to pretend to not like a movie just because one of the actors may or may not have done something I disagree with. Anybody trying to shame those that enjoy art should probably worry bout their own life and their own enjoyment of art.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

MSL said:
I believe Michael Jackson most likely had inappropriate sexual incidents with children.
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What facts do you have to support this premise? Not meaning to be aggressive or anything, just curious.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

TinnyandOdd said:
Money is the root of all evil and the legality repercussions alone are enough to deter him. I very much doubt he will ever come forward.
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Actually, the most accurate translation of that quote reads, "the love of (or lust for) money is a root for all kinds of evil". Currency, in and of itself, is amoral; people can choose to do both with it. As for Jordan not coming forward publicly, I can understand why. He's probably spent the last 20 years of his life, constantly reminded of this whole mess...and the tabloid media's become more corrupt than ever before. If he put himself out there, they'd latch onto him like a hungry dog with a steak. I read once though, that he approached one of Michael's brothers privately, to confess the truth after MJ died.
 
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