Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[myosotis]

Vanessa Engle on Carl Beech: 'I didn’t want to tell the story of a liar at the expense of genuine victims'


I have a problem with this comment. A story should be about the TRUTH no matter what side it falls on. If someone is PROVEN IN COURT OF LAW (NOT public opinion/bias/media) to be an abuser, that story has a right to be told; however, if someone is clearly telling lies about abuse in order to frame/falsely accuse someone, that story needs to be told as well. Is it fair for an INNOCENT man/woman to be falsely accuse and not be able to call out the liars and to defend him/herself? I think NOT. So an INNOCENT person should continue to be falsely accused and the lie to be believe all because someone does not hope it make real victims in other cases from coming forward? That is stupid. That is why people/society need to stop judging cases in a general fashion. LET ALL CASES STAND ON THEIR OWN MERIT unless the case has been proven and then you want to compare two PROVEN guilty cases or two PROVEN innocent cases AFTER the COURT OF law has done its job. If people do this, there will be no need for anyone to fear. I can judge as case and the person and evidence show him/her guilty; and in the same moment, I can see someone else who is innocent and someone who is lying about abuse.

Exactly so. There seems to be a 'feeling' that it is 'unfair' to victims to investigate their stories. However, if you lost something but said it had been stolen, you would expect the insurance co. to investigate for evidence of theft. If you fell over, but claimed someone hit you in order to claim criminal compensation for injuries, you'd have to show some evidence.

I can't think of any other crime where a victim doesn't have to prove their case, or at least have their story properly investigated. I don't at all see why sexual offences should be any different.

 

[Anna]

Check out how they keep testing the waters to normalize their fantasies. uke:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;The largely well-received French-language pic won the World Cinema Dramatic Directing Award at Sundance this year.&quot;<br><br>The same Sundance that promoted the pro-NAMBLA LN and whose co-founder is currently in jail for being a child predator? <a href="https://t.co/LcakoB8bg5">https://t.co/LcakoB8bg5</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/DEADLINE?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Deadline</a></p>&mdash; Salazar (@MikeSalazar777) <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeSalazar777/status/1296692340501942272?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 21, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

There&#8217;s something fundamentally wrong with Sundance & Co.

It&#8217;s like, &#8220;let&#8217;s try this poster and see if we can get away with it. We can always pull it and apologize if someone complains.&#8221;

That poster is by Netflix, not Sundance. The film is by a french woman and apparently one of the themes is the issue of increased sexualisation of young girls. Netflix decided to market it like a pedo fantasy.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

That poster is by Netflix, not Sundance. The film is by a french woman and apparently one of the themes is the issue of increased sexualisation of young girls. Netflix decided to market it like a pedo fantasy.

You&#8217;re right, that error is on Netflix&#8217; part. I didn&#8217;t make that clear in my post.

Snopes has the full fact checked story: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/netflix-cuties-poster/

 

[myosotis]

Just when you thought the 'award season' was over:

Televisual: Televisual is uniquely only and all about production from commission to final master and our audience the management, leading production executives and creative and technical operators who make this happen.

Televisual is however much more than just the finest magazine &#8211; and now website &#8211; for the UK production community.

Last chance to vote for 2020 Televisual Bulldog Awards

Voting is to close on August 28th for the 16th annual Televisual Bulldog Awards that celebrate the very best of British television. Click here to start voting.

The awards range across drama, comedy, factual entertainment, entertainment, documentary, sport and more as well as craft categories including cinematography and music.

Nominations this year include Chernobyl, His Dark Materials, Flirty Dancing, Derry Girls, Cricket World Cup Final, Race Across the World, For Sama, Don&#8217;t **** With Cats, Our Planet and many more.

The awards are decided by an industry wide vote so please head to televisual-bulldogs.com to have your say.

And as an added incentive to get voting, you&#8217;ll be entered into a draw with a chance to win a range of prizes. Click here to start voting.

There are 14 awards categories in total and the results will be announced in the next print issue with the winners invited to the Televisual Bulldog Awards winners&#8217; dinner (date still tbc obviously).

Nominations:
DOCUMENTARY SERIES
63 UP &#8211; ITV &#8211; Shiver (Multi Story Media)

DON&#8217;T **** WITH CATS &#8211; NETFLIX &#8211; Raw TV

JADE: THE REALITY STAR WHO CHANGED BRITAIN &#8211; CHANNEL 4 &#8211; Blast! Films

LEAVING NEVERLAND &#8211; CHANNEL 4 &#8211; Amos Pictures

SURGEONS: AT THE EDGE OF LIFE &#8211; BBC2 &#8211; Dragonfly

THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER FILES &#8211; BBC4 &#8211; Wall to Wall

https://www.televisual.com/news/last-chance-to-vote-for-202-televisual-bulldog-awards/

It looks like if you work in UK TV , you can vote.....
https://www.televisual-bulldogs.com/vote/

 

[terrell]

Just when you thought the 'award season' was over:

Televisual: Televisual is uniquely only and all about production from commission to final master and our audience the management, leading production executives and creative and technical operators who make this happen.

Televisual is however much more than just the finest magazine &#8211; and now website &#8211; for the UK production community.

Last chance to vote for 2020 Televisual Bulldog Awards

Voting is to close on August 28th for the 16th annual Televisual Bulldog Awards that celebrate the very best of British television. Click here to start voting.

The awards range across drama, comedy, factual entertainment, entertainment, documentary, sport and more as well as craft categories including cinematography and music.

Nominations this year include Chernobyl, His Dark Materials, Flirty Dancing, Derry Girls, Cricket World Cup Final, Race Across the World, For Sama, Don&#8217;t **** With Cats, Our Planet and many more.

The awards are decided by an industry wide vote so please head to televisual-bulldogs.com to have your say.

And as an added incentive to get voting, you&#8217;ll be entered into a draw with a chance to win a range of prizes. Click here to start voting.

There are 14 awards categories in total and the results will be announced in the next print issue with the winners invited to the Televisual Bulldog Awards winners&#8217; dinner (date still tbc obviously).

Nominations:
DOCUMENTARY SERIES
63 UP &#8211; ITV &#8211; Shiver (Multi Story Media)

DON&#8217;T **** WITH CATS &#8211; NETFLIX &#8211; Raw TV

JADE: THE REALITY STAR WHO CHANGED BRITAIN &#8211; CHANNEL 4 &#8211; Blast! Films

LEAVING NEVERLAND &#8211; CHANNEL 4 &#8211; Amos Pictures

SURGEONS: AT THE EDGE OF LIFE &#8211; BBC2 &#8211; Dragonfly

THE YORKSHIRE RIPPER FILES &#8211; BBC4 &#8211; Wall to Wall

https://www.televisual.com/news/last-chance-to-vote-for-202-televisual-bulldog-awards/

It looks like if you work in UK TV , you can vote.....
https://www.televisual-bulldogs.com/vote/

These awards have made themselves look bad & bias t this point. Lies on LN are out and now they will always be associated with awarding a lie and it will keep being brought on no how they went along with lies on MJ.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

No name never heard of award shows

 

[Paris78]

and so it goes...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">'Ellen' Canceled in Australia as Channel Nine Becomes First to Pull Plug on Show <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/EllenDeGeneres?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#EllenDeGeneres</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ellenshow?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ellenshow</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TheEllenShow?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TheEllenShow</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ellen?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ellen</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/canceled?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#canceled</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WarnerBros?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WarnerBros</a> <a href="https://t.co/gx5q1tsgY4">https://t.co/gx5q1tsgY4</a></p>&mdash; B.Zach Jacobs (@club721) <a href="https://twitter.com/club721/status/1297924176196571143?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 24, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

Remember we talk about this before? i'm glad someone else brought it up.

https://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/...kle-amp-Michael-Jackson?p=4302360#post4302360

 

[Electro]

I think all of this celebrating that once LN-supporters lost their jobs is really extremely petty.
In most of the cases it has nothing to do with LN. That Ellen-woman in trouble has nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
In the entertainment industry people lose their jobs, get new jobs all the time.
Let's stop making a fuzz about it just because we're still not over LN. It only makes fans look bitter and frustrated.

 

[somewhereinthedark]

I think all of this celebrating that once LN-supporters lost their jobs is really extremely petty.
In most of the cases it has nothing to do with LN. That Ellen-woman in trouble has nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
In the entertainment industry people lose their jobs, get new jobs all the time.
Let's stop making a fuzz about it just because we're still not over LN. It only makes fans look bitter and frustrated.

It’s not petty to point how these people had no regret or sympathy for an innocent man who was no longer here to defend himself. It’s only reasonable to celebrate these hypocrites downfall. I’m not going to forget or forgive their blatant disregard for Michael or his family in supporting the lying frauds Robson and Safechuck. NONE of these LN supporters will ever get a pass from me and their downfall is to be not only celebrated but pointed out. Why should MJ fans have even an ounce of feelings for these people? Did they have any for Michael, his kids or family? No, they had zero.

Btw, it does NOT make fans look petty. What these people did to Michael was vindictive and petty.

 

[Electro]

It&#8217;s not petty to point how these people had no regret or sympathy for an innocent man who was no longer here to defend himself. It&#8217;s only reasonable to celebrate these hypocrites downfall. I&#8217;m not going to forget or forgive their blatant disregard for Michael or his family in supporting the lying frauds Robson and Safechuck. NONE of these LN supporters will ever get a pass from me and their downfall is to be not only celebrated but pointed out. Why should MJ fans have even an ounce of feelings for these people? Did they have any for Michael, his kids or family? No, they had zero.

Btw, it does NOT make fans look petty. What these people did to Michael was vindictive and petty.

I'm not suggesting to have any warm feelings for any of them.
But the negative feelings some have for them should be better channeled in pointing out and fighting what they have done wrong. If the LN camera man would break his leg in a car crash, and some fans go "YAY, karma! Spread the news..." then that's just plain childish and looks incredibly desperate for revenge or even crazy to non-fans. And it doesn't put a good light on MJ fans fighting against LN in general.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

If the LN camera man breaks his leg in a car crash, and some fans go "YAY, karma! Spread the news..." then that's just plain childish and looks incredibly desperate for revenge. And it doesn't put a good light on MJ fans fighting against LN in general.

That&#8217;s not what most &#8220;karma&#8221; cases are, though. The irony is that the big players in the media circus, who continuously bullied MJ in life and in death, are now being called out on their bullying behavior, sexual misconduct, financial breach of trust, and so on. They&#8217;re being exposed for who they truly are.

If any of those people would step forward and admit that they were wrong, no one would applaud their downfall.

 

[Electro]

I didn't follow this thread completely, but some stuff just stuck out as far fetched revenge-joy to me.

On the other hand, give me a Dan Reed car crash news flash any day!

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I didn't follow this thread completely, but some stuff just stuck out as far fetched revenge-joy to me.
On the other hand, give me a Dan Reed car crash news flash any day!

:laughing: OK, I don&#8217;t wish physical harm on anyone, but my sympathy does have its limits as well.

Yeah, some cases seem to be a bit farfetched. I look at it this way: the whole entertainment industry is a magnet for narcissists who will &#8211; due to the nature of their character &#8211; do anything to get to (or stay at) the top. They don&#8217;t care about anyone but themselves, which is not a character trait that the majority of their audience would approve of. So they&#8217;re trying to hide it by calling out others left and right &#8211; throwing stones to hide their hands, as MJ put it.

But lies and deceit will at one point or another be exposed for what they are. Unfortunately they&#8217;re not officially and widely called out on their lies about MJ yet, so we&#8217;ll take what we can get and enjoy a little bit of schadenfreude when they trip over their other misdeeds.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

It's because they are hypocrites. Throwing stones to hide their hands.

 

[myosotis]

I think all of this celebrating that once LN-supporters lost their jobs is really extremely petty.
In most of the cases it has nothing to do with LN. That Ellen-woman in trouble has nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
In the entertainment industry people lose their jobs, get new jobs all the time.
Let's stop making a fuzz about it just because we're still not over LN. It only makes fans look bitter and frustrated.

'That Ellen woman', who says 'Be Kind' at the end of each show, and who is /was a major influencer on US TV told her Twitter followers:

Ellen DeGeneres@TheEllenShow
Mar 5, 2019
I&#8217;m watching @Oprah interview James Safechuck and Wade Robson from #LeavingNeverland on @OWNTV.
I hope everyone watches this. #AfterNeverland

Ellen interviewed Paris Jackson on her TV chat show in December 2011 (and was 'nice' to her in public), then with zero research followed her friend Oprah in condemning MJ on the basis of a purely one-sided film, showing R and S's accusations only. There is nothing 'kind' or fair or reasonable about Ellen's treatment of Michael. Ellen does not practice what she preaches, where MJ is concerned.

If she doesn't like Michael or had concerns about his behaviour, why invite MJ fans like Salif on her show, or MJ's children? She is a hypocrite who acts in accordance with what she thinks will curry public interest and favour at the time.

[video=youtube;Zx7TDu0y2vc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx7TDu0y2vc[/video]

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Well said. They do whatever their "owners"tell them.what keeps them in the "in group"

 

[Electro]

'That Ellen woman', who says 'Be Kind' at the end of each show, and who is /was a major influencer on US TV told her Twitter followers:


Ellen interviewed Paris Jackson on her TV chat show in December 2011 (and was 'nice' to her in public), then with zero research followed her friend Oprah in condemning MJ on the basis of a purely one-sided film, showing R and S's accusations only. There is nothing 'kind' or fair or reasonable about Ellen's treatment of Michael. Ellen does not practice what she preaches, where MJ is concerned.

If she doesn't like Michael or had concerns about his behaviour, why invite MJ fans like Salif on her show, or MJ's children? She is a hypocrite who acts in accordance with what she thinks will curry public interest and favour at the time.

I know and agree. You don't have to convince me that these people are scum. I meant that Ellens current troubles have no direct connection to anything Michael Jackson. Her show isn't getting cancelled because she supported LN.

My general point of critique was about keeping it rational. Stay above the level of the bully.
Going after everyone who ever worked on one of these shows and celebrating their unrelated failures in life just takes it a bit too far and puts a bad light on US fans imo.

Anyway. My 2 cents.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

meant that Ellens current troubles have no direct connection to anything Michael Jackson. Her show isn't getting cancelled because she supported LN.
-----------------

Of course they don't. I doubt anyone would say the opposite. The point is these ppl attacked mj they were hypocrites. Jumped on the bandwagon to take part in a one sided attack. Yet in reality they were throwing stones to hide their hands.

 

[terrell]

I'm not suggesting to have any warm feelings for any of them.
But the negative feelings some have for them should be better channeled in pointing out and fighting what they have done wrong. If the LN camera man would break his leg in a car crash, and some fans go "YAY, karma! Spread the news..." then that's just plain childish and looks incredibly desperate for revenge or even crazy to non-fans. And it doesn't put a good light on MJ fans fighting against LN in general.

That is kind of you; but I will admit, I am petty just for the reasons others gave. The hypocrisy. I can care less about any MJ hater or person who think we or I am petty. They want to think we are "petty" because we expose the BS they speak on MJ and we (I know I wont) kiss their @$$ to be able to say whatever they want even lies and want fans & the Jacksons to say nothing while only they speak which is tabloid trash and clearly know no facts of the case. Like someone said, where was the fairness to MJ, his family, his fans, etc? Where was the fairness to seek the truth about the lies told on MJ instead of trying to hide the truth of those lying accusers? And if anyone think it is "crazy', so what. As far as I am concern (people like that do not care about MJ anyway or the truth and I do not care about them). As I say, "when people go low, I will go to the floor".

 

[Electro]

I still feel like my point is not coming through. So I'll try one last time.


I don't care about what the haters think about fans. The hardcore haters are lost.
I care about how things look to neutral people. Those unfinalized opinions that we are fighting for.

There's an important difference between:

A.) Exposing haters hypocrisy and calling out and debunking their BS.
= Fully ok. Necessary. Do it! Be petty about it if you want.

B.) Celebrating that a hater literally falls down the stairs. [analogy]
= Just immature & eroding grounds to properly do A.) towards neutral people.

For example, celebrating things like some worker at the Ellen show losing his job for whatever non-MJ reason is category B. That guy did not get fired for his pro-LN tweet, which should be our only concern. Because otherwise it just contributes to the widely spread conception that "all MJ fans are crazy", making it harder for all of us to get taken serious.

It feels like some of you have lost perspective that this world is not completely polarized between hardcore fans and hardcore haters. The majority of people on this planet know 0 about all of this. And there are tons of decent people who are interested but just have not been exposed to real facts. What should they find when they decide to dig deeper? A or B?


I hope that explains what I wanted to say regarding SOME of the things posted. I didn't mean to make a big fuzz about it.

 

[Glanni]

from 2017 but nice to see how documented Wade's involvement in the britney/justin breakup was long before LN came out.

i searched it because it was mentioned in the new podcast with taj from today:

 

[mjfan05]

I still feel like my point is not coming through. So I'll try one last time.


I don't care about what the haters think about fans. The hardcore haters are lost.
I care about how things look to neutral people. Those unfinalized opinions that we are fighting for.

There's an important difference between:

A.) Exposing haters hypocrisy and calling out and debunking their BS.
= Fully ok. Necessary. Do it! Be petty about it if you want.

B.) Celebrating that a hater literally falls down the stairs. [analogy]
= Just immature & eroding grounds to properly do A.) towards neutral people.

For example, celebrating things like some worker at the Ellen show losing his job for whatever non-MJ reason is category B. That guy did not get fired for his pro-LN tweet, which should be our only concern. Because otherwise it just contributes to the widely spread conception that "all MJ fans are crazy", making it harder for all of us to get taken serious.

It feels like some of you have lost perspective that this world is not completely polarized between hardcore fans and hardcore haters. The majority of people on this planet know 0 about all of this. And there are tons of decent people who are interested but just have not been exposed to real facts. What should they find when they decide to dig deeper? A or B?


I hope that explains what I wanted to say regarding SOME of the things posted. I didn't mean to make a big fuzz about it.

I agree. We shouldn't be posting minute updates of random people having minor problems in life not related in any way to LN on this thread. I know from long years that I've wondered when some people will get theirs but posting about these small fish just makes us look petty. I might be stepping on Electro's point here, but at least wait for something tangible like Oprah getting cancelled (not happening)

 

[elusive moonwalker]

When it comes to mj and justice you have to take whatever you can.

 

[christy]

Not celebrating the failures of MJ haters
but a sticky note to oneself " Karma's a bitch"

 

[Alh21]

I haven&#8217;t been on the site for a while, What is the latest news on them two lying scumbags, I refuse to read anything in the media about MJ as it sickens me but I haven&#8217;t heard anything about them for a while and just wondered if they had both dropped dead (wishful thinking on my part).

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I haven&#8217;t been on the site for a while, What is the latest news on them two lying scumbags, I refuse to read anything in the media about MJ as it sickens me but I haven&#8217;t heard anything about them for a while and just wondered if they had both dropped dead (wishful thinking on my part).

They have mostly disappeared from the public, but their lawsuits are still going on. Dan Reed is filming the hearings, although he&#8217;s not allowed to film anyone, so he&#8217;s basically just recording audio. It still hasn&#8217;t been decided whether or not there will even be a trial, and if there will be one, it won&#8217;t be before June 2021. So, if you really don&#8217;t want to hear more about them than absolutely necessary, you can safely wait another couple of months before you check in again.

 

[Alh21]

They have mostly disappeared from the public, but their lawsuits are still going on. Dan Reed is filming the hearings, although he&#8217;s not allowed to film anyone, so he&#8217;s basically just recording audio. It still hasn&#8217;t been decided whether or not there will even be a trial, and if there will be one, it won&#8217;t be before June 2021. So, if you really don&#8217;t want to hear more about them than absolutely necessary, you can safely wait another couple of months before you check in again.

Being on this site is no issue for me when it comes to them two as we all feel the same way about them so thats a great comfort. I did read the article about ellen and hope she gets what&#8217;s coming to her as well, not sure why anyone would think she was anything but scum, cant stand the woman, never have and never will, karma really is a bitch haha

 

[myosotis]

Interesting reports about lawyer Lisa Bloom, the atty. who is Gloria Allred's daughter, and who was retained by a certain H. Weinstein:

In March 2019, Bloom was quick to support LN on Twitter:

But it seems that Ms Bloom has some troubles of her own:

Lisa Bloom Blows Bruce Weber Case, Attempt to Coach Client to Lie Exposed

Some call it &#8220;another setback&#8221; others, &#8220;a slow motion trainwreck.&#8221; Either way, Lisa Bloom&#8217;s stain on the legal profession continues to grow as a judge calls her opponent&#8217;s evidence &#8216;Indisputable.&#8221;

Buddy Kreuger made a big mistake when he tried to cash in on having worked for superstar photographer Bruce Weber with sexual harassment allegations: Kreuger hired Lisa Bloom to represent him. Bloom has been having a very bad couple of years: She was exposed for having sold out all her past clients and feminist-bonafides to Harvey Weinstein, as reported in the book 'She Said'. She was exposed for having sold out her pal Ronan Farrow and participated in trying to get his reporting on Weinstein shut down with NBC. She has had to step back from numerous cases including ones involving CA Rep Cardenas and Usher. And, perhaps most humiliating at all, she lost a high profile case to a non-lawyer, Alki David, who admitted to being stoned throughout the trial.

In any case Kreuger is now shit-out-of-luck on his scam, thanks to Bloom.

&#8220;He appeared like he was trying to fit the incident into the statute of limitations, so the judge saw right through it,&#8221; a source familiar with the case told Page Six. &#8220;Bruce and his team had records and evidence that contradicted Krueger&#8217;s story each time he changed it, and the judge called Bruce&#8217;s evidence &#8216;indisputable.&#8217; &#8221;

Bloom did the same thing in the E. Taylor (not the filmstar) v. Alki David case, in which a jury issued a decision in favor of David 8-4, saying Taylor&#8217;s testimony was not credible. Taylor was caught in numerous lies on the stand.....

And, as Page Six reports, in June, Bloom was ordered to pay Weber over $28,000 in legal costs after one of her key witnesses refused to answer certain questions at a deposition in the case brought by model Jason Boyce, another plaintiff. Unlike other &#8220;Expert Witnesses&#8221; Bloom and her mother Gloria Allred use regularly, she seems to have accidentally hired one with a shred of ethics left, one who wouldn&#8217;t lie to support false claims. Allred was under fire recently when it was exposed that her go-to hack shrink, Cindy Buf Meyers &#8220;from UCLA&#8221; lied to the jury in the Khan v. David case about how much she would be paid for her testimony. She said it would be a few thousand dollars when in fact it was $36,000.

Both Lisa Bloom and Gloria Allred are said to be under investigation by the California State Bar.

https://www.shockya.com/news/2020/09/07/lisa-bloom-blows-bruce-weber-case/

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Throwing stones to hide their hands