Continuation of discussion about what is disrespectful commentary and what isn't

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

The staff wasn't the problem as far as what my concern is. It isn't rocket science, folks. This is a MICHAEL JACKSON fansite. All things MICHAEL JACKSON are discussed here (for the most part, lol). People shouldn't be surprised or upset when Michael Jackson is mentioned on a MICHAEL JACKSON site. Said people also shouldn't expect any other person (high profile or not) to be more important than Michael Jackson on a MICHAEL JACKSON site.

I don't expect Michael Jackson to take precedence over Van Halen on a VAN HALEN site. If I start a thread about Mike there (and Van Halen fans start ragging on him, etc.) then I shouldn't get my panties in a knot and demand that RESPECT is shown for Michael Jackson on a VAN HALEN SITE. At that point, I'm in VH's house, (so to speak), not Michael Jackson's. In short, for fans that don't understand, it's pretty much "enter at your own risk". Well, that's how I see it and that's how I conduct myself accordingly when I'm visiting fan sites or official sites of other artists. I'm in their house, I'll respect their artist. If I feel the need to wax poetic about Michael Jackson, I'll come HERE.

 

[J5master]

^^^ agreed!

 

[ShipOfFools]

I don't believe Joan Rivers, or Robin Williams for that matter, hated Michael. I do think they thought it was appropriate to make jokes about them, and they were hurtful jokes. I don't think they thought anything other than, "Oh, I'm a comedian, I can make a funny about this!"

It wasn't right, but so isn't a lot about our world. I feel there are bigger things to worry about, personally.

 

[HumbleHeart]

This may sound like a really stretching thing to say. I believe the cause of Michael Jackson's death was a very slow one that began with the allegations in 1993, but more so 2003. He went in to a slow decline. Because of the way he was vilified and treated by everyone in general; media, other celebrity 'friends', people he tried to help, etc; he was pushed over the edge. People like Rivers and Williams (seriously, he apologised? When/where? BS I don't believe it) gained some cheap laughs at his expensive but at the end of the day, constant jokes like that from all different people probably didn't help his depression/paranoia and sadness. Those two didnt just make a joke once or twice, they constantly made fun of him and the worst kind of fun, bullying him about a crime that was never proven. They bullied him about the way he looked, the way he sounded -- how is that fair?

His death, IMO is a direct result from that constant mistreatment. A happy Michael Jackson would have never had to self medicate to his eventual death.

I was very sad to hear about the death or Robin Williams and the fact that he went through personal torture with depression -- but I can't help but to feel like maybe given his quiet internal demons, he would have been a little bit more sensitive to someone like Michael; who from the outside in, was obviously dealing with his own long-term personal turmoils.

Joan Rivers? Well.... I feel sorry for her family and I'm sure that when the curtain came down she was probably a decent Mom and a good Grandmother, but the things she said about MJ.... well, I'm not going to celebrate her life that's for sure and I don't understand why MJ fans are so quick to feel a huge loss.

 

[J5master]

It wasn't right, but so isn't a lot about our world. I feel there are bigger things to worry about, personally.

I agree with this, but honestly this thread isn't about whether we SHOULD bash joan for what she said in life or not, or if we should even worry about it. But its more about the degree of discussion, and the manner of discussion - and structure of discussion of such issues. So that we can give everyone space to say their piece without judgment.

We talk about petty things all over this board, for instance - and sure there are more important things we could talk about, but it is a discussion board and people can choose to talk about the petty things if they want. And if they choose to do so, it shouldn't be a warzone lol

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

I don't expect Michael Jackson to take precedence over Van Halen on a VAN HALEN site. If I start a thread about Mike there (and Van Halen fans start ragging on him, etc.) then I shouldn't get my panties in a knot and demand that RESPECT is shown for Michael Jackson on a VAN HALEN SITE. At that point, I'm in VH's house, (so to speak), not Michael Jackson's. In short, for fans that don't understand, it's pretty much "enter at your own risk". Well, that's how I see it and that's how I conduct myself accordingly when I'm visiting fan sites or official sites of other artists. I'm in their house, I'll respect their artist. If I feel the need to wax poetic about Michael Jackson, I'll come HERE.

That's Message Board 101, but the example I used needed to be reiterated.

I agree with this, but honestly this thread isn't about whether we SHOULD bash joan for what she said in life or not, or if we should even worry about it. But its more about the degree of discussion, and the manner of discussion - and structure of discussion of such issues. So that we can give everyone space to say their piece without judgment.

We talk about petty things all over this board, for instance - and sure there are more important things we could talk about, but it is a discussion board and people can choose to talk about the petty things if they want. And if they choose to do so, it shouldn't be a warzone lol

YES! Different strokes for different folks (and that's cool), so long as people realize this site is about Mike first and foremost. Gimme a break, we even have petty discussions/conversations about Mike's own PARENTS, the 2 people that brought him into this world! If they and the rest of his family are fair game, then there sure as hell shouldn't be any filters or restrictions placed when we're discussing anyone else (dead or alive). Mike LOVED his family (as dysfunctional as they are). I seriously doubt he cared about Joan Rivers, etc. that much.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

:bumpThis thread, because I've seen other forms of commentary I'd consider disrespectful: derailing threads by trying to tie in one of Mike's relatives as a sideways attempt to spew hatred for them (i.e. the MJ Facebook thread). Let me be perfectly clear; there are many things some of his fam have done that I consider shady and horrible, but even then I still acknowledge the FACT that these are people Mike loved dearly and were very important to him, so I try to keep that in mind and check myself. The loved one I have to work extra hard at not going H.A.M on is Latoya and it hasn't been easy, but I manage to keep it light.

When I see posts that make exaggerated claims as fact about Mike's connection/interaction with his family, that is going overboard (and talking out of turn) in my honest opinion, because NONE OF US truly know how he did so away from the cameras, away from the spotlight. Quite frankly, it's truly none of our business. At the end of the day, we love Mike and are his fans, but the Jacksons are his FAMILY. He is a part of them just as much as they are a part of him. While I sometimes wonder how deep their love for him is and have doubts about it, I won't state it as a FACT, because I can't do that, mainly because I don't KNOW THAT. No fan does!

None of our families would pass the smell test if they were put under the microscope like we do Mike's.

 

[J5master]

This is the kind of thing I addressed in my comments in the feed back thread. http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/134022-MJJC-Comment-and-Suggestion-Box

But yeah I've seen it a lot around here. It gets tiring. MJ and his relationship with his family was obviously complicated, but MJ never DISOWNED himself from his family. Its simply not true. Up until he died, he still accepted and loved them as his family and I think we should at least respect that much. Lets stop treating MJ's family like ISIS on an MJ board. That's all I ask. lol

Sure say your complaints, but not every thread needs to turn into an excuse to hate on the family.

 

[MIST]

Michael didn´t say bad things about his family -exceptn he was abused as a child-but we don´t really know if he loved them when he died.Or hated.Maybe somewhere in between.
He could have had different feelings for different familymembers.
I don´tknow how his feelings for Lisa-Marie was either in 2009.
I can´t say he loved her, hated her, didn´t care..I just don´t know.

 

[J5master]

Well they might have been going through disagreements, but I think context clues tell us that it is very unlikely that he HATED everyone in his family (did anyone read/listen to his oxford speech in 2000? Or ANY of his interviews for that matter? or any of his other conversations about his family - even candid ones? He never ever said that he hated his family.) And I think we should take him at his word , that when he said that he loved his family - he did. Just like when he said that he's straight, or identifies as a straight male - well, obviously we can't know EVERYTHING for sure, but its a pretty safe bet that we can take him at his word or at the very least respect his words given that is all we have to go on when it comes to that sort of thing.

You can have a distant/strained/turbulent relationship with your family and still love them. MJ wished for the public to know that he loved his family. Why is his word not enough now? Why can't we just respect that much?

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

MJ never DISOWNED himself from his family. Its simply not true. Lets stop treating MJ's family like ISIS on an MJ board. That's all I ask. lol

Michael didn´t say bad things about his family -exceptn he was abused as a child-but we don´t really know if he loved them when he died.Or hated.Maybe somewhere in between.
He could have had different feelings for different familymembers.
I don´tknow how his feelings for Lisa-Marie was either in 2009.
I can´t say he loved her, hated her, didn´t care..I just don´t know.

You can have a distant/strained/turbulent relationship with your family and still love them. MJ wished for the public to know that he loved his family. Why is his word not enough now? Why can't we just respect that much?

:agree: unk: I wasn't sure how my bump post was going to be received (and really didn't care, lol), but it needed to be said. It's as if some fans feel Mike's loss hit the fanbase harder than it hit his family and they didn't "deserve" to mourn him (based on something they don't have all of the information on), which is beyond ridiculous at best. I know from personal experience that I have relatives that I love from a distance. . . LONG DISTANCE and I'm going to keep it that way. We may not have a storybook family relationship, but I still love them and if someone from outside the family talks ish about them or try to hurt them, I'll be there (pun intended) to kick some ass and take some names, bahahahahahaha! I can crack on my family, but nobody else better try it. That's probably how many people view the soap opera that is the family dynamic.

Another thing MJ ISIS needs to realize is Mike himself would probably put those in check that spew some of the foulness against his family (if he could). I'm sure they wouldn't have said those things about his family to his face.

 

[barbee0715]

:bumpThis thread, because I've seen other forms of commentary I'd consider disrespectful: derailing threads by trying to tie in one of Mike's relatives as a sideways attempt to spew hatred for them (i.e. the MJ Facebook thread). Let me be perfectly clear; there are many things some of his fam have done that I consider shady and horrible, but even then I still acknowledge the FACT that these are people Mike loved dearly and were very important to him, so I try to keep that in mind and check myself. The loved one I have to work extra hard at not going H.A.M on is Latoya and it hasn't been easy, but I manage to keep it light.

When I see posts that make exaggerated claims as fact about Mike's connection/interaction with his family, that is going overboard (and talking out of turn) in my honest opinion, because NONE OF US truly know how he did so away from the cameras, away from the spotlight. Quite frankly, it's truly none of our business. At the end of the day, we love Mike and are his fans, but the Jacksons are his FAMILY. He is a part of them just as much as they are a part of him. While I sometimes wonder how deep their love for him is and have doubts about it, I won't state it as a FACT, because I can't do that, mainly because I don't KNOW THAT. No fan does!

None of our families would pass the smell test if they were put under the microscope like we do Mike's.

I just want to say that this was beautifully put and I agree with you 100%. Especially the part where you say you struggle with it sometimes, but try to keep it light.

I am not always good, because if they say or do something negative about Michael, that's the same as attacking someone I love, so I'm going to react. But usually, I try to just to understand them as a whole lifetime of things-and not trash them forever and ever. I have a lot of love and affection for their old growing up days.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

I just want to say that this was beautifully put and I agree with you 100%. Especially the part where you say you struggle with it sometimes, but try to keep it light.

I am not always good, because if they say or do something negative about Michael, that's the same as attacking someone I love, so I'm going to react. But usually, I try to just to understand them as a whole lifetime of things-and not trash them forever and ever. I have a lot of love and affection for their old growing up days.

:agree: I hear ya on that and can respect that because I look at it the same way. I will admit it's hard for me to resist making snarky comments about them when they do something grimy, but even then I will try to keep it light (which isn't easy, lol).

I'm still glad that Mike didn't leave them in control of his estate, because that would have been a disaster!

 

[J5master]

Another thing MJ ISIS needs to realize is Mike himself would probably put those in check that spew some of the foulness against his family (if he could). I'm sure they wouldn't have said those things about his family to his face.

That's my main view in all this. If we love MJ and want to respect him and his wishes, then I think the logical thing is to ask ourselves as a fan base "if MJ were here, what would he think about this"...and I don't think MJ would be totally ok with constant bashing of his family on any planet or parallel universe. He also wouldn't approve of people even questioning the idea that he loved his family - even entertaining the fact that he hated his family. When ever he had criticisms against his family (especially in later years), he always backed it up with a positive. He even admitted himself that he began to understand the complexities of family dynamics more since becoming a father.

Again, I'm not saying that people aren't allowed to say negative opinions about the family or be honest about their dislike, but as with all opinions - lets do it respectfully. Lets keep it contained where it is relevant. And - this being my opinion but folks are free not to agree or take this suggestion - lets not pointlessly create an enemy out of them where there isn't one. It does no one any good, especially the fanbase - which is extremely divided partially because of this. And for what? Raising pitchforks at every turn isn't doing much.

But basically yes, we need to really think about what would transpire if MJ were still alive and how we would be acting.

And yes yes I know most would be like "Well he also wouldn't approve of this and that and this and we can't always do what MJ would approve of" but IMO, I think that in general - not just when it comes to the Jacksons - moderation should be exercised. When it comes to Jackson related stuff on a Michael Jackson board - respect should be exercised. Respect does not mean not saying anything negative. It means respect for the fact that MJ, the person this board is based upon, did - for a fact - love his family and did not say or do anything that would give evidence to the contrary. Just like he loved his kids and did not do or say anything to the contrary. That should just be kept in mind, I think.

 

[barbee0715]

:agree: I hear ya on that and can respect that because I look at it the same way. I will admit it's hard for me to resist making snarky comments about them when they do something grimy, but even then I will try to keep it light (which isn't easy, lol).

I'm still glad that Mike didn't leave them in control of his estate, because that would have been a disaster!

Well me too. But sometimes I spout off. But only at something they specifically said or did. But I don't bring it up and attack them for no reason. And I usually try to always see both sides if possible.
And me too about the Estate. The first week when they had her down at the courthouse saying Michael died intestate really made me angry.
And at the same time Jermaine was on every news show saying Michael wanted to be buried at Neverland? Angrier.
Growing up with them and knowing all the past history you could feel their motives in everything. Another Graceland charging admission with Jermaine in charge?
But it all turned out good since Branca showed up and Katherine insisted on Forest Lawn.
I tell you I was so proud of her that day of that decision and told her through the tv.
Later on of course, I was disappointed in her again but people aren't perfect.

 

[barbee0715]

That's my main view in all this. If we love MJ and want to respect him and his wishes, then I think the logical thing is to ask ourselves as a fan base "if MJ were here, what would he think about this"...and I don't think MJ would be totally ok with constant bashing of his family on any planet or parallel universe. He also wouldn't approve of people even questioning the idea that he loved his family - even entertaining the fact that he hated his family. When ever he had criticisms against his family (especially in later years), he always backed it up with a positive. He even admitted himself that he began to understand the complexities of family dynamics more since becoming a father.

Again, I'm not saying that people aren't allowed to say negative opinions about the family or be honest about their dislike, but as with all opinions - lets do it respectfully. Lets keep it contained where it is relevant. And - this being my opinion but folks are free not to agree or take this suggestion - lets not pointlessly create an enemy out of them where there isn't one. It does no one any good, especially the fanbase - which is extremely divided partially because of this. And for what? Raising pitchforks at every turn isn't doing much.

But basically yes, we need to really think about what would transpire if MJ were still alive and how we would be acting.

And yes yes I know most would be like "Well he also wouldn't approve of this and that and this and we can't always do what MJ would approve of" but IMO, I think that in general - not just when it comes to the Jacksons - moderation should be exercised. When it comes to Jackson related stuff on a Michael Jackson board - respect should be exercised. Respect does not mean not saying anything negative. It means respect for the fact that MJ, the person this board is based upon, did - for a fact - love his family and did not say or do anything that would give evidence to the contrary. Just like he loved his kids and did not do or say anything to the contrary. That should just be kept in mind, I think.

Well I know a lot of people like to say what would Michael do and I'll say right up front that I'm not a saint like Michael and if his mom makes me mad for a reason, she makes me mad.
Especially his mom. (I sometimes have this weird love for Michael as if he's my own child. ESP since 93.
But I won't call her bad names or anybody on this forum bad names or say they're stupid etc.
I suppose if I was sitting across Michael himself and he said "my mom is a saint" I would just smile and keep my mouth shut.

 

[J5master]

^^^

Sure and if his mom makes you mad, sure say that. Again, I'm not saying to not do so. And its not so much a matter of "what would MJ do" either...definitely not that lol. But its more of a "lets keep MJ (as a person who we respect) in mind" instead, as it IS his family. Just like you would for the family of any one else you care about.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

Well me too. But sometimes I spout off. But only at something they specifically said or did. But I don't bring it up and attack them for no reason. And I usually try to always see both sides if possible.
And me too about the Estate. The first week when they had her down at the courthouse saying Michael died intestate really made me angry.
And at the same time Jermaine was on every news show saying Michael wanted to be buried at Neverland? Angrier.
Growing up with them and knowing all the past history you could feel their motives in everything. Another Graceland charging admission with Jermaine in charge?
But it all turned out good since Branca showed up and Katherine insisted on Forest Lawn.
I tell you I was so proud of her that day of that decision and told her through the tv.
Later on of course, I was disappointed in her again but people aren't perfect.

:agree: I think that's what makes it tough for me when it comes to everything that went down, especially after he died. Mike's super fame shouldn't have affected them, shouldn't have changed their view of him as their brother first and foremost, but it seems like it did (in some aspects).

You're right; people aren't perfect and that fact helps me keep myself in check when it comes to them. It won't be easy though, bahahahaha!