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Billie Jean. Sung live or lip synced?

Do you prefer Billie Jean sung live or lip synced?

  • Sung live

    Votes: 63 85.1%

  • Lip synced

    Votes: 11 14.9%
  • Total voters
    74
Blue Criminal said:
That's true but at the same time we have to remember that he was 50 at the time of This Is It so it's understandable to think that his dancing may have declined from the days of Bad, Dangerous and HIStory tours when he was in his 20s and 30s. Michael wasn't a young guy full of energy anymore in 2009. His dancing may have still been very good but I don't think he was as good as he was in his younger days understandingly.
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I don't think anyone here is talking about the natural effect of aging on the human body (Michael maybe not being able execute certain moves as smoothly or easily as he used to).
I think we're talking about his overall talent for dancing, which personally I don't think he ever lost. :)

Michael was a natural born dancer (not to mention how much he practiced), so even though at 50 he may not have been able to execute the moves as good/smooth as he could when he was younger/healthier I don't think he lost moves.:D
 
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I can't remember who said this, but I like this quote

''Michael Jackson could be moonwalking at 1 mile per hour, and people would still watch in amazment''
 
Pink Diamond Princess said:
I don't think anyone here is talking about the natural effect of aging on the human body (Michael maybe not being able execute certain moves as smoothly or easily as he used to).
I think we're talking about his overall talent for dancing, which personally I don't think he ever lost. :)

Michael was a natural born dancer (not to mention how much he practiced), so even though at 50 he may not have been able to execute the moves as good/smooth as he could when he was younger/healthier I don't think he lost moves.:D
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I must have missed something, did someone say he lost his moves? Lol, that's far too silly to even entertain. A person that has danced since the age of 8 can't just lose his moves like that. That's not how it works. In the same way that he couldn't just lose his ability to sing.
 
analogue said:
This Is It looked like a typical Michael Jackson rehearsal to me. And it's really unfair to judge his dancing skills based on rehearsal footage, because he never goes full out during rehearsals.

I judge This Is It by rehearsal standards, and not by actual concert standards.
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I mean this with the utmost sincerity, so please don't get offended, but I judge off the facts.

The facts are that Michael was unwell and not ready to tour.
The AEG trial confirmed this and gave very sad details surrounding the weeks and days leading to his death.

I just don't see how anyone could look at This Is It the same way after all the information that we have had released.
 
chris123678 said:
I mean this with the utmost sincerity, so please don't get offended, but I judge off the facts.

The facts are that Michael was unwell and not ready to tour.
The AEG trial confirmed this and gave very sad details surrounding the weeks and days leading to his death.

I just don't see how anyone could look at This Is It the same way after all the information that we have had released.
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I agree, and it's what I've been saying all along. Denial, is the reason. Either people don't want to accept facts or they are just saying things while having done no research and knowing nothing.
 
analogue said:
This Is It looked like a typical Michael Jackson rehearsal to me. And it's really unfair to judge his dancing skills based on rehearsal footage, because he never goes full out during rehearsals.

I judge This Is It by rehearsal standards, and not by actual concert standards.
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You need to judge it with the facts in mind. You can't just ignore everything and pretend facts don't matter. Kenny Ortega has repeatedly said that MJ wasn't coherent during a lot of the rehearsals and he didn't show up to most of them. I enjoy This Is It, but to ignore what really happened and how MJ really was shows to me people really do like living in their own world.
 
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SmoothGangsta said:
You need to judge it with the facts in mind. You can't just ignore everything and pretend facts don't matter. Kenny Ortega has repeatedly said that MJ wasn't coherent during a lot of the rehearsals and he didn't show up to most of them. I enjoy This Is It, but to ignore what really happened and how MJ really was shows to me people really do like living in their own world.
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I think I'm one of the least delusional MJ fans, but this sorta shit I just don't want to know.

This Is It helped me enormously after his death and where as part of me knows it was edited to show a certain angle, I just want to have my Father Christmas moment with this and believe.

I have to say, some stuff I read here really ruins some of the magic for me, reading stuff like spurious writing credits on SIM for example.
 
Tony R said:
I think I'm one of the least delusional MJ fans, but this sorta shit I just don't want to know.

This Is It helped me enormously after his death and where as part of me knows it was edited to show a certain angle, I just want to have my Father Christmas moment with this and believe.

I have to say, some stuff I read here really ruins some of the magic for me, reading stuff like spurious writing credits on SIM for example.
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I mean, I don't really know what to say. I like to live by facts and reality. Although I do understand what you're saying I don't think that's necessarily healthy. For me, anyway. I can still appreciate someone for what they did and understand everything surrounding it. Including writing credits etc. It just means other people helped contribute. Also, I agree about This Is It, I had just become a hardcore fan after he died and I honestly though it was amazing when I saw it in cinema.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
I mean, I don't really know what to say. I like to live by facts and reality. Although I do understand what you're saying I don't think that's necessarily healthy. For me, anyway. I can still appreciate someone for what they did and understand everything surrounding it. Including writing credits etc. It just means other people helped contribute. Also, I agree about This Is It, I had just become a hardcore fan after he died and I honestly though it was amazing when I saw it in cinema.
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Yeah, there's no right or wrong here! I'm usually the most pragmatic of people but sometimes in life you need a little bit of delusion. Especially when you've been a fan of that person all your life (36 at the time) and the last few years had so much sadness.
 
Tony R said:
Yeah, there's no right or wrong here! I'm usually the most pragmatic of people but sometimes in life you need a little bit of delusion. Especially when you've been a fan of that person all your life (36 at the time) and the last few years had so much sadness.
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Yeah I think I come across as a major downer most of the time but I'm really just straightforward with my answers and what I believe. Blunt, if you will.
 
analogue said:
I can't remember who said this, but I like this quote

''Michael Jackson could be moonwalking at 1 mile per hour, and people would still watch in amazment''
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LMAO, why is this so true. :lol:

Overall, my final thoughts are that age and health without a doubt could have affected his dancing at the time of TII, but did he lose some of his dancing talent altogether?
No, I just couldn't see that happening.
I just couldn't see him truly losing the ability to do something he was so naturally good at, and that he'd been doing damn near since he could walk.:)
 
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SmoothGangsta said:
You need to judge it with the facts in mind. You can't just ignore everything and pretend facts don't matter. Kenny Ortega has repeatedly said that MJ wasn't coherent during a lot of the rehearsals
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It could be because of insomnia. He didn't get real sleep. I don't remember all the things said during the trial but I think he could have performed the shows. At least some of them. He seemed good during the last days. Just watch the J5 Medley, Smooth Criminal and TWYMMF parts.
 
Galactus123 said:
It could be because of insomnia. He didn't get real sleep. I don't remember all the things said during the trial but I think he could have performed the shows. At least some of them. He seemed good during the last days. Just watch the J5 Medley, Smooth Criminal and TWYMMF parts.
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I too think he could have performed some shows but i understand SmoothGangsta's point. This Is It was edited in such a way to give you that impression. Unless we get the complete raw unedited footage we will never know for sure.
 
Galactus123 said:
It could be because of insomnia. He didn't get real sleep. I don't remember all the things said during the trial but I think he could have performed the shows. At least some of them. He seemed good during the last days. Just watch the J5 Medley, Smooth Criminal and TWYMMF parts.
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Didn't Michael also take sleeping drug during HIStory tour?
 
Galactus123 said:
It could be because of insomnia. He didn't get real sleep. I don't remember all the things said during the trial but I think he could have performed the shows. At least some of them. He seemed good during the last days. Just watch the J5 Medley, Smooth Criminal and TWYMMF parts.
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He seemed good because he was taking ephedrine. Although I'm sure lack of sleep definitely contributed. As he was using propofol and you don't actually sleep when you're knocked out with it. I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe you should actually read up on it. When people say "I can't remember anything relating to what you're talking about, but I think this" it makes it hard for me to take them seriously.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
I too think he could have performed some shows but i understand SmoothGangsta's point. This Is It was edited in such a way to give you that impression. Unless we get the complete raw unedited footage we will never know for sure.
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I have no doubt he could have performed at least a few. Not with live singing though. His lung was too damaged to catch breath during the uptempo songs. Ballads maybe would have been live, although I doubt it. I don't think he could have kept it up constantly though. Especially with the lack of sleep and drug use. I don't think the raw footage is something they'll let us see honestly, and I'm not sure if I'd want to see it.
 
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SmoothGangsta said:
I have no doubt he could have performed at least a few. Not with live singing though. His lung was too damaged to catch breath during the uptempo songs. Ballads maybe would have been live, although I doubt it. I don't think he could have kept it up constantly though. Especially with the lack of sleep and drug use. I don't think the raw footage is something they'll let us see honestly, and I'm not sure if I'd want to see it.
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There most likely would have been some live songs.
Human Nature, IJCSLU and the J5 Melody would have been live.
 
Blue Criminal said:
Also WBSS, OTW Medley, Dirty Diana
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I agree on WBSS - I don't think he would ever perform that with play-back.

BUT - OTW-Medley?? What makes you think he would perform that live??

Dirty Diana - I don't know. Not much dancing in the song - at least not before the end where there is not much singing, so maybe.
 
This is just a guess on what songs would have been live and which songs would have been lip synced on This Is It

Live
Wanna Be Startin Somethin
Human Nature
I Just Can't Stop Loving You
Jackson 5 Medley
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Dirty Diana

Lip synced
Jam
They Don't Care About Us
Smooth Criminal (With live vocals at the very end)
The Way You Make Me Feel (With live adlibs)
Thriller
Earth Song
Dangerous
You Are Not Alone (With live adlibs)
Heal The World (With live adlibs)
Will You Be There
Man In The Mirror (With live adlibs)
Black Or White

Songs I'm not sure about
Billie Jean
Beat It


Billie Jean and Beat It were the hardest choices for me, because those songs could have gone either way.
 
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analogue said:
This is just a guess on what songs would have been live and which songs would have been lip synced on This Is It

Live
Wanna Be Startin Somethin
Human Nature
I Just Can't Stop Loving You
Jackson 5 Medley
Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Dirty Diana

Lip synced
Jam
They Don't Care About Us
Smooth Criminal (With live vocals at the very end)
The Way You Make Me Feel (With live adlibs)
Thriller
Earth Song
Dangerous
You Are Not Alone (With live adlibs)
Heal The World (With live adlibs)
Will You Be There
Man In The Mirror (With live adlibs)
Black Or White

Songs I'm not sure about
Billie Jean
Beat It


Billie Jean and Beat It were the hardest choices for me, because those songs could have gone either way.
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I would also include Black or White as not sure. I know that he always lip synced that song expect a couple of occasions where he sung with the playback but I think due to MJ's desire for more living signing and the fact that he was doing one less verse of the song, I think he would have sung BOW live.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
He seemed good because he was taking ephedrine. Although I'm sure lack of sleep definitely contributed. As he was using propofol and you don't actually sleep when you're knocked out with it. I don't mean to sound rude, but maybe you should actually read up on it. When people say "I can't remember anything relating to what you're talking about, but I think this" it makes it hard for me to take them seriously.
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With not getting real sleep I meant propofol. If he hadn't died I'm sure he would he tried performing the shows. Artists who have drug related problems somehow still manage to do it.
 
MattyJam said:
You make it sound as if MJ was falling apart at the seams.


Yes, he did have inflammation of the lungs, although it doesn't say in his autopsy report how severe/mild that was, so your armchair diagnosis about how he couldn't sing live due to this is just speculation. I don't see why he would be working on building his voice back up with a vocal coach if he didn't at least have some intention of doing some live singing on TII. I'm pretty sure we would've gotten more live singing than we got on the HIStory tour.



TBH, I think you're overstating the problems. Most of MJ's ailments that flagged up in his autopsy came about due to age, such as arthritus and possible knee surgery. It actually stated in the report that he was in pretty good health for a man of his age.
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There's physical and mental health. He clearly was not in good mental or physical health imo. People seem to like to ignore all the people that have testified in court about what they saw and how MJ was, plus all the private emails between aeg execs and Kenny Ortega. It's all conveniently ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that he was fine.
 
MattyJam said:
You mean like how you conveniently ignored his autopsy report stating that he was in good physical condition for a man of his age?


Nobody is saying that everything was rosey around June 2009, we know for a fact that MJ was unhappy about the amount of shows and as you correctly pointed out, there were concerns at AEG about MJ not turning up to rehearsals and him being underweight. But some fans love to believe the worst and portray MJ as some helpless drug-addled mess, and I don't think there is any actual evidence to support that. It came out in the Katherine Jackson Vs AEG trial that both AEG, Kenny Ortega and MJ himself felt that the last two rehearsals before his death were his best so far, and that things were starting to pick up, despite misgivings in the weeks prior to that. You can't just take isolated email exchanges as proof that things weren't going well with MJ, and ignore the fact that the same people who sent those emails also said that things had improved in the days before his passing.


I respect your desire to get to the truth, and understand your scepticism at believing the PR line spun by AEG and the TII movie, especially in light of some of the things that came up during both Murray's trial and KJ Vs. AEG. But at the same time, I think you also need to reserve a healthy amount of scepticism for the sensationalist media propaganda, who want you to believe that MJ was an out-of-control drug-crazed mess. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, and I personally think stories of MJ's deteriorating mental and physical health are greatly exaggerated by some fans. That's not to say there weren't problems, but was he knocking on deaths door? No, I don't believe he was.
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I'm glad this hasn't turned into a screaming war yet lol, I'm quite surprised, I honestly think the last two rehearsals are because he was taking ephedrine, which I've stated and has also been overlooked. I don't like to belive the worst. If I thought all evidence pointed to MJ being fine that's what I'd say.
 
Delete. Can't be bothered.
 
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MattyJam said:
You mean like how you conveniently ignored his autopsy report stating that he was in good physical condition for a man of his age?


Nobody is saying that everything was rosey around June 2009, we know for a fact that MJ was unhappy about the amount of shows and as you correctly pointed out, there were concerns at AEG about MJ not turning up to rehearsals and him being underweight. But some fans love to believe the worst and portray MJ as some helpless drug-addled mess, and I don't think there is any actual evidence to support that. It came out in the Katherine Jackson Vs AEG trial that both AEG, Kenny Ortega and MJ himself felt that the last two rehearsals before his death were his best so far, and that things were starting to pick up, despite misgivings in the weeks prior to that. You can't just take isolated email exchanges as proof that things weren't going well with MJ, and ignore the fact that the same people who sent those emails also said that things had improved in the days before his passing.


I respect your desire to get to the truth, and understand your scepticism at believing the PR line spun by AEG and the TII movie, especially in light of some of the things that came up during both Murray's trial and KJ Vs. AEG. But at the same time, I think you also need to reserve a healthy amount of scepticism for the sensationalist media propaganda, who want you to believe that MJ was an out-of-control drug-crazed mess. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, and I personally think stories of MJ's deteriorating mental and physical health are greatly exaggerated by some fans. That's not to say there weren't problems, but was he knocking on deaths door? No, I don't believe he was.
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A+ comment.
You put things perfectly here.

Also this might be a bit off topic, but I would just like to point out that Michael was dependant on drugs.
Being dependant on drugs and doing drugs for the hell of it are two different things, and often times I'll see the media make Michael out as having been a fiending drug addict looking for his next high, and I can't stand that mess.
 
MattyJam said:
You mean like how you conveniently ignored his autopsy report stating that he was in good physical condition for a man of his age?


Nobody is saying that everything was rosey around June 2009, we know for a fact that MJ was unhappy about the amount of shows and as you correctly pointed out, there were concerns at AEG about MJ not turning up to rehearsals and him being underweight. But some fans love to believe the worst and portray MJ as some helpless drug-addled mess, and I don't think there is any actual evidence to support that. It came out in the Katherine Jackson Vs AEG trial that both AEG, Kenny Ortega and MJ himself felt that the last two rehearsals before his death were his best so far, and that things were starting to pick up, despite misgivings in the weeks prior to that. You can't just take isolated email exchanges as proof that things weren't going well with MJ, and ignore the fact that the same people who sent those emails also said that things had improved in the days before his passing.


I respect your desire to get to the truth, and understand your scepticism at believing the PR line spun by AEG and the TII movie, especially in light of some of the things that came up during both Murray's trial and KJ Vs. AEG. But at the same time, I think you also need to reserve a healthy amount of scepticism for the sensationalist media propaganda, who want you to believe that MJ was an out-of-control drug-crazed mess. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle, and I personally think stories of MJ's deteriorating mental and physical health are greatly exaggerated by some fans. That's not to say there weren't problems, but was he knocking on deaths door? No, I don't believe he was.
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I don't think anyone ignores the autopsy findings.
His health may have been good, but his behaviors were not, and that's what mattered at the end.

June 2009 alone speaks of the fact that he was not ready for the concerts. 2 days of good rehearsals just don't speak well for a concert that was set to begin 2 weeks later.
I'll acknowledge that his performing during those rehearsals was pretty good.
But overall, he wouldn't have been ready.
His overall appearance showed it.
 
One thing I'd like to mention is also there is a difference between 'healthy' declared by a doctor and what is needed to do a 50 date concert set. You have to be an athlete to do something like that! a 'healthy' 50 year old can't jump on stage and do that by doctor standards.. Doctors in all honesty we have to remember are not athletic specialists..

I have had several debates with doctors about these type of things and have proven them to be wrong regarding health nutrition, and various standards of what is needed to make athletic performance happen.. The basic grids and math they do for there text books do not include many variables that should be considered.. take BMI for example, I have sat there with n 8 pack and them tell me I'm obese... there are variables that are not being measured... Body fat, cholesterol, blood pressure, blood flow capabilities, inflammation levels, water, etc.. it continues.


I have not tested Michael myself but it's not hard to be 'healthy' in doctors eyes. My brother while injured with crippling nerve damaged was diagnosed 'healthy' because he could do a basic lifts.. not considering the variables that include he was benching (for example) 60% more a month prior.
 
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