Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
HIS page is almost as bad............
https://www.facebook.com/dana.miller.5011
HIS page is almost as bad............
https://www.facebook.com/dana.miller.5011
Latest on MJJC
- Latest Michael Jackson News
- Click Here to Join Our Community
- Follow us on X
- Wanna talk Michael? Come join the chat rooms
- The Michael Jackson Chart Watch
- Become an MJJC Patron
- Join the Premium Member Group and Get Lot's of Extra's
- Major Love Prayer - Worldwide Monthly Prayer Every 25th
- MJJC Exclusive Q&A - We talk to the family and those in and around Michael
- Join us in the Chat Rooms
- Find us on Facebook
Appeal Thread - Murray Filed for Appeal / Update: Appeal DENIED
- Thread starter ivy
- Start date
elusive moonwalker
Guests
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
About 1% given these lawyers brain cells!
About 1% given these lawyers brain cells!
Aquarius
Proud Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 975
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Seems she's looking for some kind of support but at the end they found each other, an unethical doctor & an unethical attorney. And that Dana is the attorney's puppy.
It's so unrealistic to have an atty saying she took Benadryl to sleep. Does she know a lot people misuse that med? She's trying to appeal Conrad's sentence & she's talking in the same way that Conrad acted. Using the wrong medication that's not indicated for the problem she has. Hope she doesn't turn it into a habit.
Seems she's looking for some kind of support but at the end they found each other, an unethical doctor & an unethical attorney. And that Dana is the attorney's puppy.
It's so unrealistic to have an atty saying she took Benadryl to sleep. Does she know a lot people misuse that med? She's trying to appeal Conrad's sentence & she's talking in the same way that Conrad acted. Using the wrong medication that's not indicated for the problem she has. Hope she doesn't turn it into a habit.
PaceMioDolceCuore
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,325
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Actually, antihistamines are being used as a sleep aid, it is even being sold as an over-the-counter sleep aid.
Not in defense of someone's facebook ramblings, just saying that antihistamines are being used this way. Diphenhydramine is one of most useful drugs 'out there' and is also being sold as a sleep aid - it is not only being used to counteract allergic reactions - hence why it is incredibly popular in ORs, SLEEP CENTERS - and over the counter, too.
^^^It's basic diphenhydramine.
Again, I'm not trying to compliment this 'attorney' (or whoever the faker behind that is), or promote massive amounts of self - medication.
I'm just pointing out that that diphenhydramine as a sleep aid ranges fairly low on the list of worries by Doctors.
(an H1N1 infection turned me narcoleptic and I either fight falling asleep - or total insomnia, narcolepsy can present as both - and I depend on much stronger drugs than Benadryl to help me regulate sleep cycles that H1N1 totally wiped out)
The occasional use of diphenhydramine in insomnia not considered abuse per se.
-----------------------------------
(none of this is to be misconstrued as medical advice)
Actually, antihistamines are being used as a sleep aid, it is even being sold as an over-the-counter sleep aid.
Not in defense of someone's facebook ramblings, just saying that antihistamines are being used this way. Diphenhydramine is one of most useful drugs 'out there' and is also being sold as a sleep aid - it is not only being used to counteract allergic reactions - hence why it is incredibly popular in ORs, SLEEP CENTERS - and over the counter, too.
^^^It's basic diphenhydramine.
Again, I'm not trying to compliment this 'attorney' (or whoever the faker behind that is), or promote massive amounts of self - medication.
I'm just pointing out that that diphenhydramine as a sleep aid ranges fairly low on the list of worries by Doctors.
(an H1N1 infection turned me narcoleptic and I either fight falling asleep - or total insomnia, narcolepsy can present as both - and I depend on much stronger drugs than Benadryl to help me regulate sleep cycles that H1N1 totally wiped out)
The occasional use of diphenhydramine in insomnia not considered abuse per se.
-----------------------------------
(none of this is to be misconstrued as medical advice)
Last edited:
CaptainEoLove85
Proud Member
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
What an idiot
What an idiot
Petrarose
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 9,574
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Guys why don't you do what I did yesterday and make a formal complaint for the Board to look into whether this behavior is ethical or not. It is good to discuss it, but do something too. The best they can do is click on her account and see to what extent she is being unethical. It is a pity that no one found out what Muarry was doing and alerted the medical board at that time.
Guys why don't you do what I did yesterday and make a formal complaint for the Board to look into whether this behavior is ethical or not. It is good to discuss it, but do something too. The best they can do is click on her account and see to what extent she is being unethical. It is a pity that no one found out what Muarry was doing and alerted the medical board at that time.
Severus Snape
Proud Member
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
I can't comment on anything because we are not Facebook friends. I can only see what she makes public, which is how others are also able to see the posts on her page. I only have the option to 'share' her post, but I wouldn't do that because it might encourage her to reset her privacy settings, thereby robbing us all of a good laugh at her seemingly endless idiocy.
OMG. I died. LMFAO. HIS page.
Let us keep it that way.
I can't comment on anything because we are not Facebook friends. I can only see what she makes public, which is how others are also able to see the posts on her page. I only have the option to 'share' her post, but I wouldn't do that because it might encourage her to reset her privacy settings, thereby robbing us all of a good laugh at her seemingly endless idiocy.
OMG. I died. LMFAO. HIS page.
Let us keep it that way.
Last edited:
Severus Snape
Proud Member
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
It's not a fake account. I can vouch for its authenticity.
But yes, Benadryl is a sleep aid. It is not originally intended to be used as such, however, it is a sleep aid. I use it to sleep at therapeutic dose along with Valerian root, with mixed results. However, it is also true that it is widely abused, as it can give you a 'high' [not really, just sedation and heightened awareness of sound, makes listening to music pleasant] when used at slightly higher-than-average doses i.e. 200mg instead of the therapeutic 50mg for sleep [for someone with no tolerance, that is]. Higher doses [i.e. 800mg+] will actually make you trip, but the trip you achieve won't be a very pleasant one either mentally [delirium, confused thinking, sometimes even hallucinations] or physically [dry mouth, vomiting, shaking, tachycardia and even atrial fibrillation in some cases, fever, death]. You also ramble on about nonsense because your short-term memory is impaired, so you forget questions you've been asked, train of thought, etc. Overall a very unpleasant high, and the majority of recreational users are teens who are too young to get anything more worthwhile. Suicidal doses [people do OD on this to commit suicide] usually consist of the entire container, which would be like 3,000mg a pop.
However, used at therapeutic dose as an "assistant" to another sleep aid, such as Valerian Root, it works fine. Used alone, however.... it really doesn't, unless it is used sparingly, which is how I suspect Wass must use it. The reason it is a lousy long-term sleep aid is because tolerance is built rather quickly--even after a week of use. I first started using it to sleep, and at first I would only need 50mg, then 100, then 200, then 300, eventually I took like 600mg to sleep every night. Not good for the heart. Or for the mouth, for that matter. And you feel like shit the next day. But I have the most pervasive insomnia ever.... so 'natural' sleep is something that has been far from my reach for years now.
Actually, antihistamines are being used as a sleep aid, it is even being sold as an over-the-counter sleep aid.
Not in defense of someone's facebook ramblings, just saying that antihistamines are being used this way. Diphenhydramine is one of most useful drugs 'out there' and is also being sold as a sleep aid - it is not only being used to counteract allergic reactions - hence why it is incredibly popular in ORs, SLEEP CENTERS - and over the counter, too.
^^^It's basic diphenhydramine.
Again, I'm not trying to compliment this 'attorney' (or whoever the faker behind that is), or promote massive amounts of self - medication.
I'm just pointing out that that diphenhydramine as a sleep aid ranges fairly low on the list of worries by Doctors.
(an H1N1 infection turned me narcoleptic and I either fight falling asleep - or total insomnia, narcolepsy can present as both - and I depend on much stronger drugs than Benadryl to help me regulate sleep cycles that H1N1 totally wiped out)
The occasional use of diphenhydramine in insomnia not considered abuse per se.
-----------------------------------
(none of this is to be misconstrued as medical advice)
It's not a fake account. I can vouch for its authenticity.
But yes, Benadryl is a sleep aid. It is not originally intended to be used as such, however, it is a sleep aid. I use it to sleep at therapeutic dose along with Valerian root, with mixed results. However, it is also true that it is widely abused, as it can give you a 'high' [not really, just sedation and heightened awareness of sound, makes listening to music pleasant] when used at slightly higher-than-average doses i.e. 200mg instead of the therapeutic 50mg for sleep [for someone with no tolerance, that is]. Higher doses [i.e. 800mg+] will actually make you trip, but the trip you achieve won't be a very pleasant one either mentally [delirium, confused thinking, sometimes even hallucinations] or physically [dry mouth, vomiting, shaking, tachycardia and even atrial fibrillation in some cases, fever, death]. You also ramble on about nonsense because your short-term memory is impaired, so you forget questions you've been asked, train of thought, etc. Overall a very unpleasant high, and the majority of recreational users are teens who are too young to get anything more worthwhile. Suicidal doses [people do OD on this to commit suicide] usually consist of the entire container, which would be like 3,000mg a pop.
However, used at therapeutic dose as an "assistant" to another sleep aid, such as Valerian Root, it works fine. Used alone, however.... it really doesn't, unless it is used sparingly, which is how I suspect Wass must use it. The reason it is a lousy long-term sleep aid is because tolerance is built rather quickly--even after a week of use. I first started using it to sleep, and at first I would only need 50mg, then 100, then 200, then 300, eventually I took like 600mg to sleep every night. Not good for the heart. Or for the mouth, for that matter. And you feel like shit the next day. But I have the most pervasive insomnia ever.... so 'natural' sleep is something that has been far from my reach for years now.
shelly_webster
Proud Member
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Conrad Murray defends lawyer as appeal nears
Los Angeles (CNN) -- Dr. Conrad Murray defended his appellate lawyer from "a slew of disparaging remarks" just days before she files the appeal of the doctor's involuntary manslaughter conviction in Michael Jackson's death.
CNN has obtained sections of that 300-page appeal, including the defense argument that the trial judge erred by not allowing the testimony of Dr. Arnold Klein, a dermatologist the defense contended addicted Jackson to Demerol in his last weeks.
Murray's appeal, which will be filed Monday, also argues that prosecutors never proved Jackson was hooked up to an IV drip of the drug that killed him. The defense theory was that Jackson had administered the fatal dosage himself while the doctor was away.
The coroner ruled that Jackson died from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol in combination with sedatives on June 25, 2009. Murray told investigators he used propofol to induce sleep because Jackson was suffering from insomnia.
Murray served as Jackson's personal physician as the pop icon prepared for 50 shows that were to debut in London in July 2009, but his patient was fighting a battle for sleep between rehearsals.
A wrongful death lawsuit filed by Jackson's three children and his mother is set for trial next month. The family accuses concert promoter AEG Live of liability in his death by hiring and supervising the doctor, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November 2011.
Murray takes a side in lawyer dispute
Murray -- during a phone call to CNN Saturday from the Los Angeles County jail where he's been held since he was sentenced to four years in prison -- said he was "impelled to stand up for" attorney Valerie Wass, who has been involved in a personal dispute with Murray's trial lawyer Michael Flanagan.
Flanagan was helping Wass, who wrote the appeal, until the two lawyers were involved in a jailhouse argument last January. Flanagan dropped Murray as a client after the incident, but the appeals court later ordered him to respond to requests from Wass for case files, which she said he had withheld.
Murray, who witnessed the January incident between his attorneys, issued a strong statement of support for Wass in his call from jail.
"In recent weeks, I became keenly aware that a slew of disparaging remarks and personal information about my appellate attorney, Valerie Wass, were unjustly released to the media and the public," Murray said. "Because of this injustice, I am impelled to stand up for this woman, for whom I have the utmost respect and confidence."
Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said.
A call to Flanagan for comment was not immediately returned.
"Although she needed help, she did not quit, did not jump ship, nor did she succumb to pressure while others abdicated their responsibilities," he said. "She held steadfastly to her professional and moral conduct, which was bolstered by her amazing mettle of mind and spirit."
Murray said Wass "stood up for me amidst a most arduous and challenging series of obstacles, and whose loyalty remains indisputable. It is my belief that she took a personal hit for me, and I want to let her know that I'll forever be grateful."
Murray's appeal: Jackson's Demerol addiction
Although Murray could be freed in about seven months, he is seeking to clear his name and get his medical license back by having his conviction overturned on appeal.
The appeal contends that Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor wrongly prevented Murray's trial lawyers from making their case that Jackson was going through withdrawal from a Demerol addiction the day he died.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
Defense experts testified at the trial that Jackson's insomnia could have been caused by the withdrawal.
The defense wanted Klein and two staff members to testify about Jackson's 23 visits to their Beverly Hills clinic in the three months before his death, including five in June 2009. Jackson was given Demerol during those visits, the last time on June 22, three days before he died.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
Pastor, however, ruled that testimony from Klein and his staff would be a "distraction and divergence" in the trial.
"The defense was also unable to prove whether Jackson was addicted to Demerol and going through withdrawal at the time he died, because experts in the case articulated they could not reach conclusions based only on reviewing Klein's records," Wass writes in the appeal.
If Klein or his staff had been allowed to testify at the trial, "It is reasonably probable that at least one juror on the panel would have found appellant not guilty of involuntary manslaughter," the appeal argues. "Accordingly, regardless of the applicable standard of review, appellant's conviction must be reversed."
Murray's appeal: No proof of IV drip
The prosecution's theory in the trial was that Murray hooked Jackson up to an unusual makeshift IV drip of propofol and then left him alone to make phone calls in an adjacent room. Murray was criminally negligent because he did not properly monitor his patient who later died from an overdose, they argued.
The defense argued that the IV drip only sent saline into Jackson's leg to hydrate him and that Murray used a syringe to slowly push a safe dose of propofol into Jackson's blood while he watched him fall asleep. A frustrated Jackson could have awakened while Murray was away and administered the fatal dose himself, the defense said.
"The propofol infusion theory offered by the prosecution's expert was not supported by the evidence, and in fact, was so absurd, improbable and unbelievable that a rational trier of fact could not have concluded that the evidence was sufficient to establish that appellant had placed Jackson on a propofol drip on the day of his death," the appeal argues.
The prosecution built the IV drip theory based on testimony of one of Jackson's guards who said he saw a propofol bottle hanging above Jackson's death bed when he arrived to help revive him. An investigator also found a saline bag with a slit in it, which the prosecution contended was used to hold the bottle on the IV stand.
Defense propofol expert Dr. Paul White testified such an IV drip set up was "befuddling" because a propofol bottle comes with a hanging device. The hanging tab on the bottle was not used, both sides agreed.
"The prosecution concocted the novel and ridiculous method of placing the vial into the bag through the slit, hanging the bottle upside down at an angle using the bag for support, and then hanging the bag from the IV stand," the appeal argues.
A piece of tubing key to the IV drip was never found, but the prosecution suggested Murray could have slipped it into a pocket before leaving the bedroom to ride to the hospital with Jackson.
Wass argues that is "pure speculation, and the absence of evidence of a long IV line with propofol residue is fatal to the prosecution's theory."
"If an IV line used in a propofol infusion had been placed in appellant's pocket, it would have been dripping propofol, and resulted in a messy wet pocket," the appeal argues. "Such a result is not reflected in any photograph, testimony, or statement of any witness."
Murray's appeal: Jackson gave himself fatal dose
Michael Jackson got little sleep the morning he died, despite Murray's bedside efforts using sedatives, according to Murray.
"It is likely that Jackson's heightened insomnia on June 25th was exacerbated by his surreptitious Demerol addiction and the resultant acute withdrawal syndrome therefrom," the appeal says. "Jackson's last Demerol injection was on June 22nd, less than 72 hours before his death, which could have been a peak period for the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms."
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
"The evidence is consistent with a scenario in which Jackson quickly self-injected the lethal bolus dose of propofol while appellant was outside the bedroom," the appeal contends. "Based on the toxicology results, it appears that the rapid injection lead to cardiac arrest and a quick death."
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/24/showbiz/conrad-murray-appeal/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Conrad Murray defends lawyer as appeal nears
Los Angeles (CNN) -- Dr. Conrad Murray defended his appellate lawyer from "a slew of disparaging remarks" just days before she files the appeal of the doctor's involuntary manslaughter conviction in Michael Jackson's death.
CNN has obtained sections of that 300-page appeal, including the defense argument that the trial judge erred by not allowing the testimony of Dr. Arnold Klein, a dermatologist the defense contended addicted Jackson to Demerol in his last weeks.
Murray's appeal, which will be filed Monday, also argues that prosecutors never proved Jackson was hooked up to an IV drip of the drug that killed him. The defense theory was that Jackson had administered the fatal dosage himself while the doctor was away.
The coroner ruled that Jackson died from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol in combination with sedatives on June 25, 2009. Murray told investigators he used propofol to induce sleep because Jackson was suffering from insomnia.
Murray served as Jackson's personal physician as the pop icon prepared for 50 shows that were to debut in London in July 2009, but his patient was fighting a battle for sleep between rehearsals.
A wrongful death lawsuit filed by Jackson's three children and his mother is set for trial next month. The family accuses concert promoter AEG Live of liability in his death by hiring and supervising the doctor, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November 2011.
Murray takes a side in lawyer dispute
Murray -- during a phone call to CNN Saturday from the Los Angeles County jail where he's been held since he was sentenced to four years in prison -- said he was "impelled to stand up for" attorney Valerie Wass, who has been involved in a personal dispute with Murray's trial lawyer Michael Flanagan.
Flanagan was helping Wass, who wrote the appeal, until the two lawyers were involved in a jailhouse argument last January. Flanagan dropped Murray as a client after the incident, but the appeals court later ordered him to respond to requests from Wass for case files, which she said he had withheld.
Murray, who witnessed the January incident between his attorneys, issued a strong statement of support for Wass in his call from jail.
"In recent weeks, I became keenly aware that a slew of disparaging remarks and personal information about my appellate attorney, Valerie Wass, were unjustly released to the media and the public," Murray said. "Because of this injustice, I am impelled to stand up for this woman, for whom I have the utmost respect and confidence."
Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said.
A call to Flanagan for comment was not immediately returned.
"Although she needed help, she did not quit, did not jump ship, nor did she succumb to pressure while others abdicated their responsibilities," he said. "She held steadfastly to her professional and moral conduct, which was bolstered by her amazing mettle of mind and spirit."
Murray said Wass "stood up for me amidst a most arduous and challenging series of obstacles, and whose loyalty remains indisputable. It is my belief that she took a personal hit for me, and I want to let her know that I'll forever be grateful."
Murray's appeal: Jackson's Demerol addiction
Although Murray could be freed in about seven months, he is seeking to clear his name and get his medical license back by having his conviction overturned on appeal.
The appeal contends that Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor wrongly prevented Murray's trial lawyers from making their case that Jackson was going through withdrawal from a Demerol addiction the day he died.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
Defense experts testified at the trial that Jackson's insomnia could have been caused by the withdrawal.
The defense wanted Klein and two staff members to testify about Jackson's 23 visits to their Beverly Hills clinic in the three months before his death, including five in June 2009. Jackson was given Demerol during those visits, the last time on June 22, three days before he died.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
Pastor, however, ruled that testimony from Klein and his staff would be a "distraction and divergence" in the trial.
"The defense was also unable to prove whether Jackson was addicted to Demerol and going through withdrawal at the time he died, because experts in the case articulated they could not reach conclusions based only on reviewing Klein's records," Wass writes in the appeal.
If Klein or his staff had been allowed to testify at the trial, "It is reasonably probable that at least one juror on the panel would have found appellant not guilty of involuntary manslaughter," the appeal argues. "Accordingly, regardless of the applicable standard of review, appellant's conviction must be reversed."
Murray's appeal: No proof of IV drip
The prosecution's theory in the trial was that Murray hooked Jackson up to an unusual makeshift IV drip of propofol and then left him alone to make phone calls in an adjacent room. Murray was criminally negligent because he did not properly monitor his patient who later died from an overdose, they argued.
The defense argued that the IV drip only sent saline into Jackson's leg to hydrate him and that Murray used a syringe to slowly push a safe dose of propofol into Jackson's blood while he watched him fall asleep. A frustrated Jackson could have awakened while Murray was away and administered the fatal dose himself, the defense said.
"The propofol infusion theory offered by the prosecution's expert was not supported by the evidence, and in fact, was so absurd, improbable and unbelievable that a rational trier of fact could not have concluded that the evidence was sufficient to establish that appellant had placed Jackson on a propofol drip on the day of his death," the appeal argues.
The prosecution built the IV drip theory based on testimony of one of Jackson's guards who said he saw a propofol bottle hanging above Jackson's death bed when he arrived to help revive him. An investigator also found a saline bag with a slit in it, which the prosecution contended was used to hold the bottle on the IV stand.
Defense propofol expert Dr. Paul White testified such an IV drip set up was "befuddling" because a propofol bottle comes with a hanging device. The hanging tab on the bottle was not used, both sides agreed.
"The prosecution concocted the novel and ridiculous method of placing the vial into the bag through the slit, hanging the bottle upside down at an angle using the bag for support, and then hanging the bag from the IV stand," the appeal argues.
A piece of tubing key to the IV drip was never found, but the prosecution suggested Murray could have slipped it into a pocket before leaving the bedroom to ride to the hospital with Jackson.
Wass argues that is "pure speculation, and the absence of evidence of a long IV line with propofol residue is fatal to the prosecution's theory."
"If an IV line used in a propofol infusion had been placed in appellant's pocket, it would have been dripping propofol, and resulted in a messy wet pocket," the appeal argues. "Such a result is not reflected in any photograph, testimony, or statement of any witness."
Murray's appeal: Jackson gave himself fatal dose
Michael Jackson got little sleep the morning he died, despite Murray's bedside efforts using sedatives, according to Murray.
"It is likely that Jackson's heightened insomnia on June 25th was exacerbated by his surreptitious Demerol addiction and the resultant acute withdrawal syndrome therefrom," the appeal says. "Jackson's last Demerol injection was on June 22nd, less than 72 hours before his death, which could have been a peak period for the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms."
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
"The evidence is consistent with a scenario in which Jackson quickly self-injected the lethal bolus dose of propofol while appellant was outside the bedroom," the appeal contends. "Based on the toxicology results, it appears that the rapid injection lead to cardiac arrest and a quick death."
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/24/showbiz/conrad-murray-appeal/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
Conrad Murray defends lawyer as appeal nears
By Alan Duke, CNN
updated 7:12 PM EDT, Sun March 24, 2013
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Murray calls from jail citing "injustice" done to appeal lawyer
Appeal lawyer Valerie Wass " took a personal hit for me," Murray tells CNN
Murray witnessed Wass and trial lawyer Michael Flanagan argue at the jail
Wass will files Murray's appeal on Monday
Los Angeles (CNN) -- Dr. Conrad Murray defended his appellate lawyer from "a slew of disparaging remarks" just days before she files the appeal of the doctor's involuntary manslaughter conviction in Michael Jackson's death.
CNN has obtained sections of that 300-page appeal, including the defense argument that the trial judge erred by not allowing the testimony of Dr. Arnold Klein, a dermatologist the defense contended addicted Jackson to Demerol in his last weeks.
Murray's appeal, which will be filed Monday, also argues that prosecutors never proved Jackson was hooked up to an IV drip of the drug that killed him. The defense theory was that Jackson had administered the fatal dosage himself while the doctor was away.
The coroner ruled that Jackson died from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol in combination with sedatives on June 25, 2009. Murray told investigators he used propofol to induce sleep because Jackson was suffering from insomnia.
Murray served as Jackson's personal physician as the pop icon prepared for 50 shows that were to debut in London in July 2009, but his patient was fighting a battle for sleep between rehearsals.
A wrongful death lawsuit filed by Jackson's three children and his mother is set for trial next month. The family accuses concert promoter AEG Live of liability in his death by hiring and supervising the doctor, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November 2011.
Murray takes a side in lawyer dispute
Murray -- during a phone call to CNN Saturday from the Los Angeles County jail where he's been held since he was sentenced to four years in prison -- said he was "impelled to stand up for" attorney Valerie Wass, who has been involved in a personal dispute with Murray's trial lawyer Michael Flanagan.
Flanagan was helping Wass, who wrote the appeal, until the two lawyers were involved in a jailhouse argument last January. Flanagan dropped Murray as a client after the incident, but the appeals court later ordered him to respond to requests from Wass for case files, which she said he had withheld.
Murray, who witnessed the January incident between his attorneys, issued a strong statement of support for Wass in his call from jail.
"In recent weeks, I became keenly aware that a slew of disparaging remarks and personal information about my appellate attorney, Valerie Wass, were unjustly released to the media and the public," Murray said. "Because of this injustice, I am impelled to stand up for this woman, for whom I have the utmost respect and confidence."
Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said.
A call to Flanagan for comment was not immediately returned.
"Although she needed help, she did not quit, did not jump ship, nor did she succumb to pressure while others abdicated their responsibilities," he said. "She held steadfastly to her professional and moral conduct, which was bolstered by her amazing mettle of mind and spirit."
Murray said Wass "stood up for me amidst a most arduous and challenging series of obstacles, and whose loyalty remains indisputable. It is my belief that she took a personal hit for me, and I want to let her know that I'll forever be grateful."
Murray's appeal: Jackson's Demerol addiction
Although Murray could be freed in about seven months, he is seeking to clear his name and get his medical license back by having his conviction overturned on appeal.
The appeal contends that Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor wrongly prevented Murray's trial lawyers from making their case that Jackson was going through withdrawal from a Demerol addiction the day he died.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
Defense experts testified at the trial that Jackson's insomnia could have been caused by the withdrawal.
The defense wanted Klein and two staff members to testify about Jackson's 23 visits to their Beverly Hills clinic in the three months before his death, including five in June 2009. Jackson was given Demerol during those visits, the last time on June 22, three days before he died.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
Pastor, however, ruled that testimony from Klein and his staff would be a "distraction and divergence" in the trial.
"The defense was also unable to prove whether Jackson was addicted to Demerol and going through withdrawal at the time he died, because experts in the case articulated they could not reach conclusions based only on reviewing Klein's records," Wass writes in the appeal.
If Klein or his staff had been allowed to testify at the trial, "It is reasonably probable that at least one juror on the panel would have found appellant not guilty of involuntary manslaughter," the appeal argues. "Accordingly, regardless of the applicable standard of review, appellant's conviction must be reversed."
Murray's appeal: No proof of IV drip
The prosecution's theory in the trial was that Murray hooked Jackson up to an unusual makeshift IV drip of propofol and then left him alone to make phone calls in an adjacent room. Murray was criminally negligent because he did not properly monitor his patient who later died from an overdose, they argued.
The defense argued that the IV drip only sent saline into Jackson's leg to hydrate him and that Murray used a syringe to slowly push a safe dose of propofol into Jackson's blood while he watched him fall asleep. A frustrated Jackson could have awakened while Murray was away and administered the fatal dose himself, the defense said.
"The propofol infusion theory offered by the prosecution's expert was not supported by the evidence, and in fact, was so absurd, improbable and unbelievable that a rational trier of fact could not have concluded that the evidence was sufficient to establish that appellant had placed Jackson on a propofol drip on the day of his death," the appeal argues.
The prosecution built the IV drip theory based on testimony of one of Jackson's guards who said he saw a propofol bottle hanging above Jackson's death bed when he arrived to help revive him. An investigator also found a saline bag with a slit in it, which the prosecution contended was used to hold the bottle on the IV stand.
Defense propofol expert Dr. Paul White testified such an IV drip set up was "befuddling" because a propofol bottle comes with a hanging device. The hanging tab on the bottle was not used, both sides agreed.
"The prosecution concocted the novel and ridiculous method of placing the vial into the bag through the slit, hanging the bottle upside down at an angle using the bag for support, and then hanging the bag from the IV stand," the appeal argues.
A piece of tubing key to the IV drip was never found, but the prosecution suggested Murray could have slipped it into a pocket before leaving the bedroom to ride to the hospital with Jackson.
Wass argues that is "pure speculation, and the absence of evidence of a long IV line with propofol residue is fatal to the prosecution's theory."
"If an IV line used in a propofol infusion had been placed in appellant's pocket, it would have been dripping propofol, and resulted in a messy wet pocket," the appeal argues. "Such a result is not reflected in any photograph, testimony, or statement of any witness."
Murray's appeal: Jackson gave himself fatal dose
Michael Jackson got little sleep the morning he died, despite Murray's bedside efforts using sedatives, according to Murray.
"It is likely that Jackson's heightened insomnia on June 25th was exacerbated by his surreptitious Demerol addiction and the resultant acute withdrawal syndrome therefrom," the appeal says. "Jackson's last Demerol injection was on June 22nd, less than 72 hours before his death, which could have been a peak period for the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms."
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
"The evidence is consistent with a scenario in which Jackson quickly self-injected the lethal bolus dose of propofol while appellant was outside the bedroom," the appeal contends. "Based on the toxicology results, it appears that the rapid injection lead to cardiac arrest and a quick death."
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/24/showbiz/conrad-murray-appeal/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Conrad Murray defends lawyer as appeal nears
By Alan Duke, CNN
updated 7:12 PM EDT, Sun March 24, 2013
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Murray calls from jail citing "injustice" done to appeal lawyer
Appeal lawyer Valerie Wass " took a personal hit for me," Murray tells CNN
Murray witnessed Wass and trial lawyer Michael Flanagan argue at the jail
Wass will files Murray's appeal on Monday
Los Angeles (CNN) -- Dr. Conrad Murray defended his appellate lawyer from "a slew of disparaging remarks" just days before she files the appeal of the doctor's involuntary manslaughter conviction in Michael Jackson's death.
CNN has obtained sections of that 300-page appeal, including the defense argument that the trial judge erred by not allowing the testimony of Dr. Arnold Klein, a dermatologist the defense contended addicted Jackson to Demerol in his last weeks.
Murray's appeal, which will be filed Monday, also argues that prosecutors never proved Jackson was hooked up to an IV drip of the drug that killed him. The defense theory was that Jackson had administered the fatal dosage himself while the doctor was away.
The coroner ruled that Jackson died from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol in combination with sedatives on June 25, 2009. Murray told investigators he used propofol to induce sleep because Jackson was suffering from insomnia.
Murray served as Jackson's personal physician as the pop icon prepared for 50 shows that were to debut in London in July 2009, but his patient was fighting a battle for sleep between rehearsals.
A wrongful death lawsuit filed by Jackson's three children and his mother is set for trial next month. The family accuses concert promoter AEG Live of liability in his death by hiring and supervising the doctor, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November 2011.
Murray takes a side in lawyer dispute
Murray -- during a phone call to CNN Saturday from the Los Angeles County jail where he's been held since he was sentenced to four years in prison -- said he was "impelled to stand up for" attorney Valerie Wass, who has been involved in a personal dispute with Murray's trial lawyer Michael Flanagan.
Flanagan was helping Wass, who wrote the appeal, until the two lawyers were involved in a jailhouse argument last January. Flanagan dropped Murray as a client after the incident, but the appeals court later ordered him to respond to requests from Wass for case files, which she said he had withheld.
Murray, who witnessed the January incident between his attorneys, issued a strong statement of support for Wass in his call from jail.
"In recent weeks, I became keenly aware that a slew of disparaging remarks and personal information about my appellate attorney, Valerie Wass, were unjustly released to the media and the public," Murray said. "Because of this injustice, I am impelled to stand up for this woman, for whom I have the utmost respect and confidence."
Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said.
A call to Flanagan for comment was not immediately returned.
"Although she needed help, she did not quit, did not jump ship, nor did she succumb to pressure while others abdicated their responsibilities," he said. "She held steadfastly to her professional and moral conduct, which was bolstered by her amazing mettle of mind and spirit."
Murray said Wass "stood up for me amidst a most arduous and challenging series of obstacles, and whose loyalty remains indisputable. It is my belief that she took a personal hit for me, and I want to let her know that I'll forever be grateful."
Murray's appeal: Jackson's Demerol addiction
Although Murray could be freed in about seven months, he is seeking to clear his name and get his medical license back by having his conviction overturned on appeal.
The appeal contends that Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor wrongly prevented Murray's trial lawyers from making their case that Jackson was going through withdrawal from a Demerol addiction the day he died.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
Defense experts testified at the trial that Jackson's insomnia could have been caused by the withdrawal.
The defense wanted Klein and two staff members to testify about Jackson's 23 visits to their Beverly Hills clinic in the three months before his death, including five in June 2009. Jackson was given Demerol during those visits, the last time on June 22, three days before he died.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
Pastor, however, ruled that testimony from Klein and his staff would be a "distraction and divergence" in the trial.
"The defense was also unable to prove whether Jackson was addicted to Demerol and going through withdrawal at the time he died, because experts in the case articulated they could not reach conclusions based only on reviewing Klein's records," Wass writes in the appeal.
If Klein or his staff had been allowed to testify at the trial, "It is reasonably probable that at least one juror on the panel would have found appellant not guilty of involuntary manslaughter," the appeal argues. "Accordingly, regardless of the applicable standard of review, appellant's conviction must be reversed."
Murray's appeal: No proof of IV drip
The prosecution's theory in the trial was that Murray hooked Jackson up to an unusual makeshift IV drip of propofol and then left him alone to make phone calls in an adjacent room. Murray was criminally negligent because he did not properly monitor his patient who later died from an overdose, they argued.
The defense argued that the IV drip only sent saline into Jackson's leg to hydrate him and that Murray used a syringe to slowly push a safe dose of propofol into Jackson's blood while he watched him fall asleep. A frustrated Jackson could have awakened while Murray was away and administered the fatal dose himself, the defense said.
"The propofol infusion theory offered by the prosecution's expert was not supported by the evidence, and in fact, was so absurd, improbable and unbelievable that a rational trier of fact could not have concluded that the evidence was sufficient to establish that appellant had placed Jackson on a propofol drip on the day of his death," the appeal argues.
The prosecution built the IV drip theory based on testimony of one of Jackson's guards who said he saw a propofol bottle hanging above Jackson's death bed when he arrived to help revive him. An investigator also found a saline bag with a slit in it, which the prosecution contended was used to hold the bottle on the IV stand.
Defense propofol expert Dr. Paul White testified such an IV drip set up was "befuddling" because a propofol bottle comes with a hanging device. The hanging tab on the bottle was not used, both sides agreed.
"The prosecution concocted the novel and ridiculous method of placing the vial into the bag through the slit, hanging the bottle upside down at an angle using the bag for support, and then hanging the bag from the IV stand," the appeal argues.
A piece of tubing key to the IV drip was never found, but the prosecution suggested Murray could have slipped it into a pocket before leaving the bedroom to ride to the hospital with Jackson.
Wass argues that is "pure speculation, and the absence of evidence of a long IV line with propofol residue is fatal to the prosecution's theory."
"If an IV line used in a propofol infusion had been placed in appellant's pocket, it would have been dripping propofol, and resulted in a messy wet pocket," the appeal argues. "Such a result is not reflected in any photograph, testimony, or statement of any witness."
Murray's appeal: Jackson gave himself fatal dose
Michael Jackson got little sleep the morning he died, despite Murray's bedside efforts using sedatives, according to Murray.
"It is likely that Jackson's heightened insomnia on June 25th was exacerbated by his surreptitious Demerol addiction and the resultant acute withdrawal syndrome therefrom," the appeal says. "Jackson's last Demerol injection was on June 22nd, less than 72 hours before his death, which could have been a peak period for the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms."
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
"The evidence is consistent with a scenario in which Jackson quickly self-injected the lethal bolus dose of propofol while appellant was outside the bedroom," the appeal contends. "Based on the toxicology results, it appears that the rapid injection lead to cardiac arrest and a quick death."
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/24/showbiz/conrad-murray-appeal/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter
Petrarose
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 9,574
- Points
- 0
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
^^ that thing up there comes from a random mind--yes Wass's. All here coulda theories are not going to work. Michael coulda been withdrawing from demerol; he coulda injected himself; we coulda have Muarry cleared if Klien testified. This is just a reharsh of all the foolish claims that the defense was spewing before the trial began, or didn't Wass know this? No wonder her boyfriend abandoned ship, apart from the romantic angle.
What made me laugh was when Muarrry said: while others abdicated their responsibilities, to refer to Wass staying & doing the brief when Flanny ran away. Hey, Muarry wasn't it your responsibility to watch Michael and give him the best medical care. However, you ran off the same way Flanny did.
Muarry is on speed dial with the media it seems. I know everyone is looking forward to the response the prosecution will make of this lame fiasco, which is Wass's brief. If this is the best she can do, then good for Muarry.
^^ that thing up there comes from a random mind--yes Wass's. All here coulda theories are not going to work. Michael coulda been withdrawing from demerol; he coulda injected himself; we coulda have Muarry cleared if Klien testified. This is just a reharsh of all the foolish claims that the defense was spewing before the trial began, or didn't Wass know this? No wonder her boyfriend abandoned ship, apart from the romantic angle.
What made me laugh was when Muarrry said: while others abdicated their responsibilities, to refer to Wass staying & doing the brief when Flanny ran away. Hey, Muarry wasn't it your responsibility to watch Michael and give him the best medical care. However, you ran off the same way Flanny did.
Muarry is on speed dial with the media it seems. I know everyone is looking forward to the response the prosecution will make of this lame fiasco, which is Wass's brief. If this is the best she can do, then good for Muarry.
Kingofpop4ever3000
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 1,533
- Points
- 0
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
Thank you. It makes me mad that all we hear are lame excuses why Murray would leave Michael alone or unattended to in that kind of condition AT ALL with no monitoring equipment hooked up, nobody else watching him while Murray was out of the room, no nothing. And what about all the times his story changed in the months after Michael died? Such as his claim that he left the room to go to the bathroom and dump some darned urine jugs before it was found out that he was actually on his phone talking to a woman. And also Murray's claim that he couldn't call 911 straight away because none of the house phones were working. But yet again, he could still call up a lady on his own phone while Michael was on his way out? Personally, I think those things should have been red flags to even anyone with a bird brain that he's not telling the truth somewhere. After all, the truth only has one story.
A whole year and a half to make an appeal defending Murray's crap actions. And this is what this lawyer comes up with like Murray didn't have to know better than to do the things he did and didn't do despite being a doctor for over twenty years. And she expects people with even an ounce of decent sense to believe Murray was not able to quit although he obviously couldn't do the job after all because he didn't know this or that about Michael's supposed situation? The doctor should have been trying to this stuff out from the start. And if he couldn't get the information he needed he would be out the door so fast, the air would bring Michael's furniture out of the house and into the street. But no. Murray probably talked a big game of how he could help Michael and then Murray messed up. He still doesn't want to admit his epic failure. So this was anybody's fault but his? Pfffft. I'm actually not surprised. This lawyer is getting her information from the same people who said the exact same silly things and lost the trial. Hopefully, the appellate court will throw this appeal out the same way.
Thank you. It makes me mad that all we hear are lame excuses why Murray would leave Michael alone or unattended to in that kind of condition AT ALL with no monitoring equipment hooked up, nobody else watching him while Murray was out of the room, no nothing. And what about all the times his story changed in the months after Michael died? Such as his claim that he left the room to go to the bathroom and dump some darned urine jugs before it was found out that he was actually on his phone talking to a woman. And also Murray's claim that he couldn't call 911 straight away because none of the house phones were working. But yet again, he could still call up a lady on his own phone while Michael was on his way out? Personally, I think those things should have been red flags to even anyone with a bird brain that he's not telling the truth somewhere. After all, the truth only has one story.
A whole year and a half to make an appeal defending Murray's crap actions. And this is what this lawyer comes up with like Murray didn't have to know better than to do the things he did and didn't do despite being a doctor for over twenty years. And she expects people with even an ounce of decent sense to believe Murray was not able to quit although he obviously couldn't do the job after all because he didn't know this or that about Michael's supposed situation? The doctor should have been trying to this stuff out from the start. And if he couldn't get the information he needed he would be out the door so fast, the air would bring Michael's furniture out of the house and into the street. But no. Murray probably talked a big game of how he could help Michael and then Murray messed up. He still doesn't want to admit his epic failure. So this was anybody's fault but his? Pfffft. I'm actually not surprised. This lawyer is getting her information from the same people who said the exact same silly things and lost the trial. Hopefully, the appellate court will throw this appeal out the same way.
Last edited:
Bubs
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2012
- Messages
- 7,856
- Points
- 0
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
"Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said."
Sounds like his appeal is going south as others have found that he had a weak case and left the sinking ship.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
She is saying that MJ's insomnia is result of Demerol withdrawal, but MJ has suffered from insomnia for years. How they are going to pinpoint 06/25 that MJ couldn't sleep because withdrawal effects and not the normal insomnia that he suffered most of his life? Also if someone is addicted to Demerol, symptoms of withdrawal syndrome appear 12-20 hours after the last dose; they include anxiety, irritability, elevated heart and respiration rate, muscle pain, nausea, tremors, hallucinations, confusion, and seizures. I don't remember reading MJ having anything else than anxiety (wasn't he suffering from anxiety before and had medication for it?) and insomnia. The only withdrawal symptom that serves their purpose is insomnia, but then again, MJ suffered it most of his life, not just 06/25.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
If MJ was addicted to Demerol, wouldn't he had needed it about every 6 hours to stay high, but according to them, MJ's last Demerol 72 hours? What kind of addict needs his high every now and then, but not all the time?
It doesn't sound like Demerol addict to me.
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
Exactly, CM left him alone, when he was supposed to stay and watch MJ all the time.
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
I'd like to know if LAPD found that phantom bottle, as none of propofol bottles had MJ's finger prints.
She says CM put the IV on Michael's leg, so are we supposed to believe Michael got up from bed, put the cloves on and walked in his bedroom to get his secret stash of propofol, and then injected himself?
He would have been knocked out immediately, and he would have been found with cloves on and this phantom propofol bottle nearby and the needle that he used to draw propofol out of the bottle, but we did not hear such a things during the trial. As for their insinuation that MJ had secret stash of propofol, why would he even have a need for secret stash for it, CM was more than willing to put him under for 2 months prior and had ordered it 255 vials? Sorry but it is not conceivable at all.
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
They can argue all their like, but they cannot get over the facts that MJ died because CM's extreme deviations from standard of care.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
I hope prosecutors shut them up for good.
"Wass completed work on the appeal even though "with the blink of an eye, all of her promised assistance vanished; they abandoned ship," Murray said."
Sounds like his appeal is going south as others have found that he had a weak case and left the sinking ship.
"The reason it sought to prove that Jackson was going through Demerol withdrawal on June 25th was to show his state of mind -- specifically, that his resulting physiological and psychological state, along with the pressure he was under from preparing for the upcoming tour, rendered him so desperate for sleep that he would take the extraordinary action of self-administering propofol when he was outside the presence of appellant," Wass writes.
She is saying that MJ's insomnia is result of Demerol withdrawal, but MJ has suffered from insomnia for years. How they are going to pinpoint 06/25 that MJ couldn't sleep because withdrawal effects and not the normal insomnia that he suffered most of his life? Also if someone is addicted to Demerol, symptoms of withdrawal syndrome appear 12-20 hours after the last dose; they include anxiety, irritability, elevated heart and respiration rate, muscle pain, nausea, tremors, hallucinations, confusion, and seizures. I don't remember reading MJ having anything else than anxiety (wasn't he suffering from anxiety before and had medication for it?) and insomnia. The only withdrawal symptom that serves their purpose is insomnia, but then again, MJ suffered it most of his life, not just 06/25.
"Michael Jackson could not sleep because of the Demerol," the defense said in pretrial arguments. "Dr. Murray did not know that. But Arnold Klein did. Michael Jackson needed sleep because he was withdrawing and addicted, both addicted and withdrawing from Demerol. That's important to our defense. In fact, it's absolutely vital."
If MJ was addicted to Demerol, wouldn't he had needed it about every 6 hours to stay high, but according to them, MJ's last Demerol 72 hours? What kind of addict needs his high every now and then, but not all the time?
It doesn't sound like Demerol addict to me.
But he did fall asleep at 10:40 a.m after a single dose of propofol, he told investigators. After watching him for 15 minutes, Murray left him alone, the appeal says.
Exactly, CM left him alone, when he was supposed to stay and watch MJ all the time.
He may have had access to a bottle of propofol without Murray knowing, the appeal says.
"Jackson was very familiar with propofol, as other doctors had administered propofol to him," Wass writes. "It is conceivable that Jackson had obtained a secondary source for the drug, especially because Jackson had been receiving nightly infusions from appellant for the previous two months, and appellant had Sunday nights off."
I'd like to know if LAPD found that phantom bottle, as none of propofol bottles had MJ's finger prints.
She says CM put the IV on Michael's leg, so are we supposed to believe Michael got up from bed, put the cloves on and walked in his bedroom to get his secret stash of propofol, and then injected himself?
He would have been knocked out immediately, and he would have been found with cloves on and this phantom propofol bottle nearby and the needle that he used to draw propofol out of the bottle, but we did not hear such a things during the trial. As for their insinuation that MJ had secret stash of propofol, why would he even have a need for secret stash for it, CM was more than willing to put him under for 2 months prior and had ordered it 255 vials? Sorry but it is not conceivable at all.
If Jackson -- not Murray -- administered the final and fatal dose, then it was not the doctor's fault the patient died, the argument says.
They can argue all their like, but they cannot get over the facts that MJ died because CM's extreme deviations from standard of care.
Murray's appeal disputes the prosecution argument that Murray was criminally liable even if Jackson had administered the fatal dose himself because Murray should have known that leaving the drugs near Jackson's bed posed a risk. The risk was "not reasonably foreseeable," it said.
The prosecution will have a chance to respond to Murray's arguments before the California appeals court makes a decision.
I hope prosecutors shut them up for good.
Bubs
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2012
- Messages
- 7,856
- Points
- 0
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
Alan Duke ?@AlanDukeCNN 13h
Conrad Murray called me from jail last night. I'll have a story about it soon.
AD seems to be every crooks confidant! Jackson's first and now felon.
Alan Duke ?@AlanDukeCNN 13h
Conrad Murray called me from jail last night. I'll have a story about it soon.
AD seems to be every crooks confidant! Jackson's first and now felon.
Justthefacts
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 4,072
- Points
- 0
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
I all of the sudden got a strange feeling about Murray being so buddy buddy with Duke who is buddy buddy with the family.
I all of the sudden got a strange feeling about Murray being so buddy buddy with Duke who is buddy buddy with the family.
Re: Appeal Thread - All Discussion / Update: Murray Filed for Appeal
It's called "Social Engineering".
Social engineering, in the context of security, is understood to mean the art of manipulating people into performing actions or divulging confidential information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_(security)
It's called "Social Engineering".
Social engineering, in the context of security, is understood to mean the art of manipulating people into performing actions or divulging confidential information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_(security)
PaceMioDolceCuore
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,325
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
And they still don't get it??
Apparently they still don't get it.
But way to confirm criminal neglect.
Just yikes.
And they still don't get it??
That's right, Murray, kind of sick to hear from you.
Later - after what? After an EMT was sure he was already dead? Man, my early dinner wants to see the daylight again.
Apparently they still don't get it.
Yup, how often are they going to repeat it?? And still not get it?
How is she going to win an appeal just based on "I think the jurors reached the wrong conclusion"??
Is there an issue of not processing information correctly? Reading levels of Kindergarten??
Plenty of witnesses have stated that one never leaves a patient alone with ANY drug. Visit the ER anywhere in the US and you'll see first hand how nothing is being left by be the bedside of ANY patient. Any drug is being scanned, then cross checked against the patient's ID before administration and then administration is being documentated. There is never any question if a drug was administered or not.
But way to confirm criminal neglect.
Just yikes.
Aquarius
Proud Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 975
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Yes, you're right. My point was that Benadryl is for allergies & the side effect is drowsiness and many people are using it & abusing it to sleep. I think that she being an attorney, & defending a person for using a medication for the wrong reasons, should be more careful. Sometimes I take Benadryl, I even had to give 1/4 Benadryl to one of my cats, my little ball of fur was so out of himself that I had to stay home to keep an eye on him.
Yes, you're right. My point was that Benadryl is for allergies & the side effect is drowsiness and many people are using it & abusing it to sleep. I think that she being an attorney, & defending a person for using a medication for the wrong reasons, should be more careful. Sometimes I take Benadryl, I even had to give 1/4 Benadryl to one of my cats, my little ball of fur was so out of himself that I had to stay home to keep an eye on him.
PaceMioDolceCuore
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,325
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
I have four cats. One with mysterious allergies. But he does okay with one long-acting steroid shot per year. (after treating an upper respiratory infection). We even ran a two week course of other antihistamines just to help him catch a break. Amazing how happy kitty was after not sleeping anymore 24/7 and leaving a trail of snot. Now he can happily harass the rest of the gang.
Did you give the quarter dose of the adult dosage? (25mg) For a cat 1-2 mg are considered 'safe'- in 7 or 8 hours. So 6.25mg is quite hefty I would think.
I have four cats. One with mysterious allergies. But he does okay with one long-acting steroid shot per year. (after treating an upper respiratory infection). We even ran a two week course of other antihistamines just to help him catch a break. Amazing how happy kitty was after not sleeping anymore 24/7 and leaving a trail of snot. Now he can happily harass the rest of the gang.
Did you give the quarter dose of the adult dosage? (25mg) For a cat 1-2 mg are considered 'safe'- in 7 or 8 hours. So 6.25mg is quite hefty I would think.
Last edited:
Petrarose
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 9,574
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Ha these cat stories are cracking me up^^. By the way as a chronic allergy sufferer I can tell you that none of these medicines put me to sleep. I guess my body has gotten used to them. I could take them all & work without feeling drowsy at all because I take allergy pills every day.
Ha these cat stories are cracking me up^^. By the way as a chronic allergy sufferer I can tell you that none of these medicines put me to sleep. I guess my body has gotten used to them. I could take them all & work without feeling drowsy at all because I take allergy pills every day.
Bubs
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2012
- Messages
- 7,856
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
I agree with you, they just don't get it:bugeyed
They keep repeating CM leaving MJ on his own after giving him all sort of stuff, and see nothing wrong with it!
I agree with you, they just don't get it:bugeyed
They keep repeating CM leaving MJ on his own after giving him all sort of stuff, and see nothing wrong with it!
PaceMioDolceCuore
Proud Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,325
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Good luck getting through allergy season!
Yeah, one small cup of diphenhydramine and my head hits the pillow, makes it easier for my sleep Doc who's main issue is to keep me awake.
Hehe, got plenty more...What cracks me up is that my cat starts sneezing at the same time when allergy season rolls around for humans.
Good luck getting through allergy season!
Yeah, one small cup of diphenhydramine and my head hits the pillow, makes it easier for my sleep Doc who's main issue is to keep me awake.
jaydom7
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 4,244
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
His lawyer is dumb.. the whole point is Murray had no business leaving MJ alone with sedatives in his system. Murray was being paid to 'monitor' his patient not just drug him up and leave him alone to talk to his girlfriends. There was no need to pay him $150,000 per month if he wasn't going to monitor him
His lawyer is dumb.. the whole point is Murray had no business leaving MJ alone with sedatives in his system. Murray was being paid to 'monitor' his patient not just drug him up and leave him alone to talk to his girlfriends. There was no need to pay him $150,000 per month if he wasn't going to monitor him
Kingofpop4ever3000
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 1,533
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Yes. That really what all of this seems to be about with them. I think they are trying hard to make it okay with the appeals court that Murray just left Michael like that. That's the only way they can try to get past the fact that his negligence played a part in Michael's death, in my opinion.
Yes. That really what all of this seems to be about with them. I think they are trying hard to make it okay with the appeals court that Murray just left Michael like that. That's the only way they can try to get past the fact that his negligence played a part in Michael's death, in my opinion.
Last edited:
Petrarose
Proud Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 9,574
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
^^But how is that going to help an appeal if you stress you drug up a patient and leave him unmonitored. Oh I guess they will stress that Michael was not drugged up by Muarry. Michael did it all himself. I hope they remember that muarry gave the DA a timeline of the cocktail of drugs he pumped into Michael every few minutes.
^^But how is that going to help an appeal if you stress you drug up a patient and leave him unmonitored. Oh I guess they will stress that Michael was not drugged up by Muarry. Michael did it all himself. I hope they remember that muarry gave the DA a timeline of the cocktail of drugs he pumped into Michael every few minutes.
Aquarius
Proud Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 975
- Points
- 0
Re: Murray Attorney Thinks Michael Was Suffering From Demerol Withdrawal
Yes, I gave him 6.25 that's why I didn't go to work. But in the end the problem was not allergies. He kept licking his tummy to the point that he ended up with no fur. The blood results didn't show anything but now I think, he licked his tummy because he probably was in pain and I didn't detect it on time. Take care of your kitties.
Yes, I gave him 6.25 that's why I didn't go to work. But in the end the problem was not allergies. He kept licking his tummy to the point that he ended up with no fur. The blood results didn't show anything but now I think, he licked his tummy because he probably was in pain and I didn't detect it on time. Take care of your kitties.