Latest on MJJC

Why was everything out of place/wrong with Invincible?

PurpleThriller

Proud Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2021
Messages
806
Points
93
In my opinion,the Invincible album was nearly pure chaos. Here's why I think that:
A. Is it me ,or some outtakes are better than most of the songs that actually made it on the album?
Like for real, Michael decided not to include:
1. Hollywood Tonight. This song is classic Michael(along with classic Brad may I add lol),and only from hearing its demo it is obvious that Hollywood Tonight was a great song with the potential of becoming ,,the Billie Jean of the 2000's,,. This song was just as strong as Billie Jean and Who is it in my opinion,and not including it on the album was pure madness.
2.Blue Gangsta. This song is so damn catchy and Michael's vocal delivery is awesome. It also is like a mix between Who is it and Smooth Criminal, and it clearly had the potential of becoming Michael's sequel to Smooth Criminal.(if a proper music video would have been done, that maybe would have been even better than the short-film for You Rock My World).
3.Chicago. She was loving me/Chicago was too great of a song/ballad to just not be included in the final tracklist of the album. Michael's vocal delivery is again very great ,and the track would have been maybe his big ,,comeback,, hit if only it would have been relesead (in my opinion).
4. (I can't make it ) Another Day. This song is again classic Michael(even if it's not written by Mike) :the powerful/aggresive vocal delivery during the chorus along with the guitar would have made this song like the 2000's version of Give into me/Dirty Diana.
5. Seeing Voices. This song would have been Michael's chance of doing something different(he even wanted to release a full classical music album at one point). This song would have showed the versatility of his singing voice,and it would have proved that he fits nearly all genres (even classical music).
6.Shout. Again,this song would have been something different and it could have showcased some rap skills from Mike.
B.Why is the tracklist of the album so bad/disoriented?
For example,the album opens with 3 nearly identical tracks : Unbreakable/Heartbreaker/Invincible. Not only the songs are too similar,but they are also very repetitive(well maybe with the exception of Heartbreaker). And not only Unbreakable and Invincible sound way too similar and can be confused,but they are also very long as particular songs,maybe too long. Compared to his previous albums,this is a very weak opening. It is soo ordinary ,nothing like stuff you would expect from Michael Jackson.
And not to mention that songs like :Unbreakable/Heartbreaker/Invincible/Privacy are all on the same album.All of them sound nearly the same and happen to be on the same record 0-0. Same for Don't walk away/Heaven Can Wait/The Lost Children/You are my life. Those ballads sound so similar yet are on the same album.And not to mention that You are my life,Privacy and Don't walk away are anything but strong songs (and anything but written by Michael).This is Michael at his most repetitive and may I say Mike at his absolute worst (really now,stuff like the entirety of You are my life or the too robotic/autotuned vocals from Privacy are ridiculous)
The album had a couple of highlights(Break of Dawn/Butterflies/You Rock My World and its video) ,but out of a 16 tracks long album ,that doesn't help anything .
All in all,the title of this album was ,in my opinion,inappropriately chosen as ,,Invincible,, . It should have been something like ,,Vulnerable,,...that would have suited better.
 
Last edited:
Because after MJ delayed the album for 2 years Sony had enough and gave him a strict deadline and made him put the album together on a rush, some even think he was drugged while choosing the tracklist.

For songs like Another Day, Escape, Hollywood Tonight and many others though he knew they were good, it's just that he chose not to release them because he wanted to save the songs for a next studio album.
 
AChanceToDance said:
Because after MJ delayed the album for 2 years Sony had enough and gave him a strict deadline and made him put the album together on a rush, some even think he was drugged while choosing the tracklist.
Click to expand...
Well if Michael would have never delayed the album,Sony wouldn't have made him rush the project. In my view it all started from Michael.
And yep,he was either drugged or didn't care i swear 0-0
 
PurpleThriller said:
In my opinion,the Invincible album was nearly pure chaos. Here's why I think that:
A. Is it me ,or some outtakes are better than most of the songs that actually made it on the album?
Like for real, Michael decided not to include:
1. Hollywood Tonight. This song is classic Michael(along with classic Brad may I add lol),and only from hearing its demo it is obvious that Hollywood Tonight was a great song with the potential of becoming ,,the Billie Jean of the 2000's,,. This song was just as strong as Billie Jean and Who is it in my opinion,and not including it on the album was pure madness.
2.Blue Gangsta. This song is so damn catchy and Michael's vocal delivery is awesome. It also is like a mix between Who is it and Smooth Criminal, and it clearly had the potential of becoming Michael's sequel to Smooth Criminal.(if a proper music video would have been done, that maybe would have been even better than the short-film for You Rock My World).
3.Chicago. She was loving me/Chicago was too great of a song/ballad to just not be included in the final tracklist of the album. Michael's vocal delivery is again very great ,and the track would have been maybe his big ,,comeback,, hit if only it would have been relesead (in my opinion).
4. (I can't make it ) Another Day. This song is again classic Michael(even if it's not written by Mike) :the powerful/aggresive vocal delivery during the chorus along with the guitar would have made this song like the 2000's version of Give into me/Dirty Diana.
5. Seeing Voices. This song would have been Michael's chance of doing something different(he even wanted to release a full classical music album at one point). This song would have showed the versatility of his singing voice,and it would have proved that he fits nearly all genres (even classical music).
6.Shout. Again,this song would have been something different and it could have showcased some rap skills from Mike.
B.Why is the tracklist of the album so bad/disoriented?
For example,the album opens with 3 nearly identical tracks : Unbreakable/Heartbreaker/Invincible. Not only the songs are too similar,but they are also very repetitive(well maybe with the exception of Heartbreaker). And not only Unbreakable and Invincible sound way too similar and can be confused,but they are also very long as particular songs,maybe too long. Compared to his previous albums,this is a very weak opening. It is soo ordinary ,nothing like stuff you would expect from Michael Jackson.
And not to mention that songs like :Unbreakable/Heartbreaker/Invincible/Privacy are all on the same album.All of them sound nearly the same and happen to be on the same record 0-0. Same for Don't walk away/Heaven Can Wait/The Lost Children/You are my life. Those ballads sound so similar yet are on the same album.And not to mention that You are my life,Privacy and Don't walk away are anything but strong songs (and anything but written by Michael).This is Michael at his most repetitive and may I say Mike at his absolute worst (really now,stuff like the entirety of You are my life or the too robotic/autotuned vocals from Privacy are ridiculous)
The album had a couple of highlights(Break of Dawn/Butterflies/You Rock My World and its video) ,but out of a 16 tracks long album ,that doesn't help anything .
All in all,the title of this album was ,in my opinion,inappropriately chosen as ,,Invincible,, . It should have been something like ,,Vulnerable,,...that would have suited better.
Click to expand...
I don't have an answer to the question either, here are some possible answers discussed: https://www.themjcast.com/139-invincible-20-roundtable/
 
AChanceToDance said:
Because after MJ delayed the album for 2 years Sony had enough and gave him a strict deadline and made him put the album together on a rush, some even think he was drugged while choosing the tracklist.

For songs like Another Day, Escape, Hollywood Tonight and many others though he knew they were good, it's just that he chose not to release them because he wanted to save the songs for a next studio album.
Click to expand...

Agree with what you're saying but who said he was drugged whilst choosing the tracklist?
 
AChanceToDance said:
That part is speculation but he was drugged up for most of the early 2000s and made a lot of bad decisions back then, the tracklist is one of them.
Click to expand...
That tracklist(for Invincible) was pure sh#t.
Then came the horrible September 7th show.(the first show of the 30th Anniversary special. It is maybe his worst performance)
Then he organized that charity show where he performed only 2 songs at the end of the entire thing....and he didn't perform one single song from the official Invincible album.
Not to mention he released the album too close to the 9/11 tragedy: he could have released it on Christmas or November(with the tracklist being changed)
Then he didn't want to shoot any other video for the album aside You Rock My World.
Then no more official singles after Cry were released(Butterflies only went to the radio)
Then he got the chance to promote his new album at the Apollo 2002 show....where he performed 3 songs ,all from an 11 year old album at the time (Dangerous). Not one single song from Invincible....
Then instead of promoting Invincible or doing another album he went after Sony and sounded like a Karen at some points.
In my view Mike ruined his career during the 2001-2003 period. Bit by bit ,he ruined it all.
 
Let's not forget he came to invincible album signing event dressed in all blue! 🔵, Really what was he thinking! blue! he ruined it all!!

On serious note, while there is truth in lot of things you mentioned, I think putting them all together and calling it 'ruined career' sounds too harsh.
Tracklist has problems - yes. But we have no way of knowing if it was intentional, or he thought it's a good tracklist or he was rushed or did not care.
Sony feud had huge impact on sales, but it's unfair to blame it all on Michael. He was also being asked to go on tour which he did not want.
All the post-released activities were largely impacted by the feud. Can't blame everything on Michael, and his career is not ruined, maybe one album is 'ruined' according to some/many people. Still the album has aged well just like his previous albums.
 
Invincible... The most discussed album ever...

What can one say that has not already been said 1000s of times...?

I do agree the beginning with those 3 songs are not good. - remove Heartbreaker, Privacy and 2000 Watts from the track-list. - Cut down the long repetive endings on Invincible and Unbreakable (and maybe some of the other songs that go too long in the end). - Then it would flow better and be a 13 songs album. - Maybe also leave out You Are My Life and then release it as a single b-side to one of the other songs.

BUT - I really like the title - INVINCIBLE ! - 1 word like MJ's other albums - and after all he been thru still in business. Fitting title I might say.

Songs like Speechless, You Rock My World, Butterflies, Whatever Happens and Threatened are PURE GOLD MJ !!

I also really like You Are My Life, Don't Walk Away and The Lost Children - I know some find them corny and cheesy - but I absolutely love these 3 songs (also Cry actually).

Out of the 16 songs I will say I really really like at least 8 of the songs. 2 songs I really dislike, worst MJ songs ever released including posthoumus releases - Privacy and 2000 Watts. I can't listen to those. Bad songs.

Invincible could have been 2 EP's instead and been very very strong. Short and effective.
 
PurpleThriller said:
Not to mention he released the album too close to the 9/11 tragedy: he could have released it on Christmas or November(with the tracklist being changed)
Then he didn't want to shoot any other video for the album aside You Rock My World.
Click to expand...
This was mostly Sony's fault, he wanted to shoot a clip for Unbreakable and Threatened but they got shelved because Sony cut the promotion for the album.
 
It was definitely mostly MJ's fault. He was the one that didn't bother with the album for ages and left people sitting in studios and hotels doing nothing. Not turning up to work on songs etc. Then when Sony didn't want to waste any more money on it he acted like they wanted to sabotage the album and went on an embarrassing anti Sony campaign.
 
You guys have no idea what you're talking about.
Invincible is incredible and perfect just the way it is.
All songs are awesome and unique. Maybe You Are my Life is a bit weak, but that's it.
His voice has progressed to a point where it's becoming something completely new.
The music was and still is years ahead of competition.
Lyrics are the best and most complex ever, from all albums. The way he's putting words together is pure magic.

I'm getting tired of explaining why this album is a masterpiece, especially to MJ fans. Either you are not listening to it (takes a while to "get" it), or the album is still too modern for you, even after all these years. I just can't understand why would anyone who likes his music not like Invincible. It's baffling to me and getting annoying.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
It was definitely mostly MJ's fault. He was the one that didn't bother with the album for ages and left people sitting in studios and hotels doing nothing. Not turning up to work on songs etc. Then when Sony didn't want to waste any more money on it he acted like they wanted to sabotage the album and went on an embarrassing anti Sony campaign.
Click to expand...
Surely, but what I mean is that it wasn't directly HIS decision. If it was up to MJ we would've gotten more clips.
 
SilkySnare said:
You guys have no idea what you're talking about.
Invincible is incredible and perfect just the way it is.
All songs are awesome and unique. Maybe You Are my Life is a bit weak, but that's it.
His voice has progressed to a point where it's becoming something completely new.
The music was and still is years ahead of competition.
Lyrics are the best and most complex ever, from all albums. The way he's putting words together is pure magic.

I'm getting tired of explaining why this album is a masterpiece, especially to MJ fans. Either you are not listening to it (takes a while to "get" it), or the album is still too modern for you, even after all these years. I just can't understand why would anyone who likes his music not like Invincible. It's baffling to me and getting annoying.
Click to expand...
MJ wasn't a perfect artist, not everything he did was great and it's ok to not like everything he made. Personally I really like the first 7 tracks and it's why the album is on my top 3 albums, but the rest of the tracklist (except for Threatened) is nothing but mediocre and they shouldn't have been put on what MJ thought was gonna be his last album for a long while. The album should've either been shortened or put better outtakes on it.
 
AChanceToDance said:
MJ wasn't a perfect artist, not everything he did was great and it's ok to not like everything he made. Personally I really like the first 7 tracks and it's why the album is on my top 3 albums, but the rest of the tracklist (except for Threatened) is nothing but mediocre and they shouldn't have been put on what MJ thought was gonna be his last album for a long while. The album should've either been shortened or put better outtakes on it.
Click to expand...
Top 3 is good enough.
People saying it's garbage is what grinds my gears.
But are you saying that you don't like The Lost Children, Whatever Happens and Threatened? I mean, 2000 Watts and Speechless, that's subjective, I'll give you that. 2000 Watts for me is a brother to Speed Demon, which is my top 5 MJ tracks. I like 2000 Watts, but can understand not everybody does.
But the last 3 tracks on the album, come on...those are objectively great.
 
SilkySnare said:
But are you saying that you don't like The Lost Children, Whatever Happens and Threatened?
Click to expand...
I love Threatened and it's why I made an exception to it, IMO it's better than Thriller. A lot of people have a dislike for The Lost Children and I dislike it too because the song is mostly instrumental and MJ barely sings on it.

I'm not really a fan of the Teddy Riley tracks honestly, 2000 Watts feels like a Teddy Riley ft. MJ song and to make this short his other songs shouldn't have been put on the album, maybe if they were on TUC it would've been better but other outtakes should've taken their spot. If this was gonna be MJ's last album for years then it should've ended on a higher note.
 
AChanceToDance said:
This was mostly Sony's fault, he wanted to shoot a clip for Unbreakable and Threatened but they got shelved because Sony cut the promotion for the album.
Click to expand...
Ohhhh,so the story with Mike wanting to shoot a huge short-film for Unbreakable was true,right?
I heard he had some big concept for it some time ago
 
SmoothGangsta said:
It was definitely mostly MJ's fault. He was the one that didn't bother with the album for ages and left people sitting in studios and hotels doing nothing. Not turning up to work on songs etc. Then when Sony didn't want to waste any more money on it he acted like they wanted to sabotage the album and went on an embarrassing anti Sony campaign.
Click to expand...
I knoww right
 
SilkySnare said:
His voice has progressed to a point where it's becoming something completely new.
Click to expand...
So that's why the album is heavily autotuned lol? You can hear the autotune during the entire Privacy song, during the "hereeeeeee" long note from You Rock My World and during some parts from Butterflies. The autotune is not even a decoration in this album,it sounds way too robotic and ridiculous. What was Mike hiding with that heavy use of autotune?The fact that his voice was over?
 
SilkySnare said:
Lyrics are the best and most complex ever, from all albums. The way he's putting words together is pure magic.
Click to expand...
The lycris of "Earth Song" and "Little Susie" beat the entirety of Invincible for me.
Plus he barely wrote anything on that album tho(he only wrote Speechless and The Lost Children on his own)
 
SilkySnare said:
I just can't understand why would anyone who likes his music not like Invincible. It's baffling to me and getting annoying.
Click to expand...
Maybe because not everybody is a fan of robotic vocals?
Maybe because a Michael Jackson album is expected to have more than 2 songs actually written by Michael Jackson?
Maybe because not everybody is a fan of Michael leaving his signature hiccups behind and not doing them anywhere in the album?
Maybe because Invincible (except for a few songs) barely sounds like the other Michael Jackson records?
Maybe because Michael is for the first time just following trends without adding his touch to it?
Just saying lol
 
SilkySnare said:
You guys have no idea what you're talking about.
Invincible is incredible and perfect just the way it is.
All songs are awesome and unique. Maybe You Are my Life is a bit weak, but that's it.
His voice has progressed to a point where it's becoming something completely new.
The music was and still is years ahead of competition.
Lyrics are the best and most complex ever, from all albums. The way he's putting words together is pure magic.

I'm getting tired of explaining why this album is a masterpiece, especially to MJ fans. Either you are not listening to it (takes a while to "get" it), or the album is still too modern for you, even after all these years. I just can't understand why would anyone who likes his music not like Invincible. It's baffling to me and getting annoying.
Click to expand...
It’s music. Music is subjective. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it incorrect or untrue.

I like Invincible for what it is, but it is in no way a masterpiece in my eyes. Now, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory, and the five-song EP on Blood on the Dance Floor? THOSE are masterpieces.
 
AlwaysThere said:
It’s music. Music is subjective. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it incorrect or untrue.

I like Invincible for what it is, but it is in no way a masterpiece in my eyes. Now, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory, and the five-song EP on Blood on the Dance Floor? THOSE are masterpieces.
Click to expand...
i would replace History with Off the wall and i agree (History has a couple of masterpieces,but as an album it is not much better than Invincible in my opinion. Tho the highlights from History are pure gold)
 
PurpleThriller said:
Maybe because not everybody is a fan of robotic vocals?
Maybe because a Michael Jackson album is expected to have more than 2 songs actually written by Michael Jackson?
Maybe because not everybody is a fan of Michael leaving his signature hiccups behind and not doing them anywhere in the album?
Maybe because Invincible (except for a few songs) barely sounds like the other Michael Jackson records?
Maybe because Michael is for the first time just following trends without adding his touch to it?
Just saying lol
Click to expand...
Yes to this. I have not been a fan for long, and I have no knowledge of Music. Still when I first heard Invincible I had a feeling that Michael's signature is missing from many of the songs. Cry was the only one where it felt like it's a Michael song.
Though since then after listening to it 50 times, the album has grown on me. It is above HISTory on my list, but it's different from others for sure. Why, we can only guess what went on during that time 🤷‍♀️
 
Hiker said:
Yes to this. I have not been a fan for long, and I have no knowledge of Music. Still when I first heard Invincible I had a feeling that Michael's signature is missing from many of the songs. Cry was the only one where it felt like it's a Michael song.
Though since then after listening to it 50 times, the album has grown on me. It is above HISTory on my list, but it's different from others for sure. Why, we can only guess what went on during that time 🤷‍♀️
Click to expand...
Same. But i can no longer listen to Cry that much,given who wrote it oop. Normally I love when artists do something different, that's why I love Prince ( whose every album is different from each other). But doing something different doesn't mean you have to abandon your signature,and that's what Mike did for one reason or another.
 
Too many songs of similar style back to back of each other. There's not a really good flow from 1 song to another like past albums. It's like all the songs were pulled from a fish bowl when their order was selected.

Also, too many cooks in the kitchen. Way WAY too many producers working on the album....especially adding Rodney Jerkins. I think he's highly overrated and there's only a select few songs he's worked on with Michael that are decent.

The promotion, or lack thereof, of the album, and Michael telling everyone it was his final album with Sony was the final nail in the coffin. Michael should have kept quiet about that to avoid his feud with Sony, and the eventual cancelation of single/video releases for the album.
 
Invincible is what happens when 3 things go wrong at the same time :
1-An artist known for writing his own songs has writer’s block
2-His team struggles to find A-list material from outside writers
3-The artist, for health- or drug-related reasons, doesn’t manage to elevate the mostly average material
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top