What was MJ’s relationship with the Jehovah’s Witnesses like?

[KingofPop125]

Out of all the contributing factors Michael’s childhood trauma, being raised as a Jehovah’s Witness is not discussed nearly as much as Joseph’s abuse or early fame & isolation.

You would think being part of, and let’s not mince words here, a cult would deeply affect his life.

I’ve read that he left in the 80’s, but then I have also read he still considered himself one by the 2000s.

So did he leave or not? Did he retain any beliefs from his time as one? How exactly had it impacted his life?

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I don't appreciate that kind of language used and I object to it.

You answered your own question anyway; he still considered himself one and did still associate at times. So his relationship was hardly as bad as some would like to insist.

 

[KingofPop125]

I don't appreciate that kind of language used and I object to it.

You answered your own question anyway; he still considered himself one and did still associate at times. So his relationship was hardly as bad as some would like to insist.

Nope. I’m sorry, but I am not going to say it’s not something when it clearly is. That doesn’t mean I want to bully every believer or anything like that. But the JW institution is just like Scientology, in the sense that calling and legitimizing it as a religion is both harmful and inaccurate when it is clearly a cult in every way, shape, and form.

 

[Victorious]

Out of all the contributing factors Michael’s childhood trauma, being raised as a Jehovah’s Witness is not discussed nearly as much as Joseph’s abuse or early fame & isolation.

You would think being part of, and let’s not mince words here, a cult would deeply affect his life.

I’ve read that he left in the 80’s, but then I have also read he still considered himself one by the 2000s.

So did he leave or not? Did he retain any beliefs from his time as one? How exactly had it impacted his life?

In general I think most of the things the public thought to be 'weird' (love for children, veganism, fasting etc. being humble etc. etc.) could be attritbuted to being raised as a (very ambitious) JW tbh

 

[Hot_Street]

In general I think most of the things the public thought to be 'weird' (love for children, veganism, fasting etc. being humble etc. etc.) could be attritbuted to being raised as a (very ambitious) JW tbh

I give the Jehoverian Witnesses credit for being vegetarians.

 

[mj_frenzy]

but then I have also read he still considered himself one by the 2000s.

That is not true.

Note that Michael Jackson had received (by its leaders) numerous threats for excommunication from that religion in the '80s, and they practically forced him to abandon that religion in 1987.

By the 2000s, Michael Jackson's image, music, music videos, on stage dance moves, and films (such as 'Ghosts') were all even more in sharp contrast to the strict, religious beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

So, even if Michael Jackson wanted to rejoin that religion, Jehovah's Witnesses leaders would certainly not have allowed that.

I give the Jehoverian Witnesses credit for being vegetarians.

But being a vegetarian is bad for one's health.

 

[Michaels Lover]

But being a vegetarian is bad for one's health.

I'm not a vegetarian but I can't help but laugh at this comment

 

[Hot_Street]

But being a vegetarian is bad for one's health.

Plant-based diets: Health benefits provided by vegan, vegetarian plans

Researchers say plant-based diets such as vegan and vegetarian eating plans provide an array of health benefits, including lower risks associated with cancer and cardiometabolic diseases

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

@KingofPop125 As far as I know, scientologists are not being arrested in foreign countries like Russia, South Korea, and Eritreia simply for holding their beliefs, however we might disagree.*

It's just an unfair and derogatory (which is against the rules of the site) stigma to throw on people who earnestly believe what they say and should not and mostly are not trying to harm anyone.

And I am not sensitive about this, I've sat out many discussions about religion and spirituality on this site because it's no need of me to interject. I take offense in this case simply because it is more personal to me.

* (If They get arrested it's for crimes they commit, like all malicious criminals should. No one should be spared.)

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

By the 2000s, Michael Jackson's image, music, music videos, on stage dance moves, and films (such as 'Ghosts') were all even more in sharp contrast to the strict, religious beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

And this is true actually. He makes a true point actually.

Bad and Dangerous both were definitely influenced by MJs mental state about this. HIStory was a strong pivot though, and Invincible didn't really have any ambitions about it. How MJ felt about making decisions in his late 20s, early 30s, is far removed from where he ended up in his late 40s, early 50s.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I give the Jehoverian Witnesses credit for being vegetarians.

I literally had so many chicken wings yesterday, not even

 

[Hot_Street]

I literally had so many chicken wings yesterday, not even

White meat like poultry is always healthier than red meat and a little protein isn't a bad idea either. So you did everything right.

However, public health experts have linked excessive red meat intake (especially processed meats like hot dogs, bacon, lunch meat, or salami) to an array of health risk factors, including increased blood pressure and heightened risk of coronary heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and certain types of cancer. Processing red meat products often involves adding salt, flavorings, or preservatives (like nitrates, which can interact with other compounds and become carcinogens) to preserve their shelf life or change their flavor.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/red-meat

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

White meat like poultry is always healthier than red meat and a little protein isn't a bad idea either. So you did everything right.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/red-meat

I'm not vegetarian tho...

 

[Hot_Street]

I'm not vegetarian tho...

like I said: you did everything right.
white meat like chicken is healthy. just eat it.

 

[Sensual visionary]

white meat like chicken is healthy.

Not for the environment, it’s a major polluter of land and groundwater. But we digress.

So did he leave or not? Did he retain any beliefs from his time as one? How exactly had it impacted his life?

I believe he discussed this with Schmuley, allegedly available to read somewhere out there on the web (don’t give your money to that man).

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

white meat like chicken is healthy. just eat it.

Chicken is very abused, let's start there.

I will always eat the red meat too lol

 

[Moviefan2k4]

If I had to use one word to describe Michael's later years with the JWs, it would be "contentious". As with any cult (and they are one, I don't care who says otherwise), the people who were hired by that "church" wanted to control every aspect of Michael's life. They monitored what he wore, sang and wrote about, the kinds of films he made, and I would not be surprised if they were interested in the women he was dating. They sank their claws into him like crazy, and he finally snapped. Personally, I'm glad he got out, because the only other cult I can think of at the moment which treats its members that way (or worse) is Scientology.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Control what he wore?? Utterly ridiculous, people just make up straight nonsense.

Nothing about his life was controlled, he left of his own volition and never had to talk about it again.

Only a truly entitled "free thinker" imagines a religion that dare does anything more than serve as a cosmetic accessory and a box you tick on registration papers to be a cult. A "cult" that has no impact or influence on the worlds political choices, no less.

It's really ironic how Michael Jackson fans of all people don't seem to believe in doing any sort of research on a subject they don't know about, and just blindly trusting their feelings and what they've heard through osmosis. Truly staggering.

 

[Whitty Hutton]

So much misinformation in here, from JW's being vegetarian to MJ's clothing being monitored , to him never being able to rejoin if he wanted...
Those determined to believe something are going to believe it no matter what, but if you have an actual open mind about JW's the official website is very open about beliefs and lifestyle

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/

 

[@mjfanatic777]

But being a vegetarian is bad for one's health.

not every one. my cousin is vegetarian because his body doesn't like meat. but if I were a vegetarian then that wouldn't be good because I need protein. it really all just depends on the person's own health / health needs and requirements because we are all made differently : )

 

[zinniabooklover]

If I had to use one word to describe Michael's later years with the JWs, it would be "contentious". As with any cult (and they are one, I don't care who says otherwise), the people who were hired by that "church" wanted to control every aspect of Michael's life. They monitored what he wore, sang and wrote about, the kinds of films he made, [...]

I'm a heathen so this isn't my battle but I'm curious about this claim. Is this really true? How do you know? I never paid much attention to Michael's personal life plus media stories about Michael, I take them with a pinch of salt. This sounds highly dubious to me. I vaguely remember reading that JW were on the sets of some of his videos and didn't like the gun in SC video but, again, is it actually true or is it just hyped up media nonsense? Bc if JW was monitoring Michael's clothes what were they aiming for? He did dress relatively modestly but, otoh, he was tearing his shirt off in live shows long before the DD video. He wore tight pants long before the Bad era. Monitoring his clothes how, exactly? For what purpose?

As for his songwriting, again, where's the evidence? His collaborators have never mentioned anything about this, afaik. JW controlled or monitored what he wrote about? The lyrics of TPH/HH, for example?

If JW was trying to control Michael (and, presumably, Janet also) they don't seem to have done a very good job. The JW does seem to be fairly conservative - as lots of churches are - but I'm not seeing evidence of them controlling anything. I've seen media stories from people who have left JW and I'm not rubbishing their claims. I'm only interested in this idea that JW tried to control and monitor what Michael did / wore / wrote. Bc I'm not seeing it, tbh.

EDIT - obviously there is Thriller and the disclaimer Michael included at the start of the video. But that's the only solid example I can think of. Where's the evidence for all these other claims?

Here's a statement from the UK branch of JW about whether certain songs or films are banned:

"No. Our organization doesn’t review specific movies, books, or songs so as to rule on what individuals should avoid ... Outside the family, however, no one is authorized to ban specific films, songs, or artists as being unacceptable for Witnesses in general."

Clearly, JW had issues with the content of the Thriller video. I'm not disputing that. It's this wider claim that I'm not so sure about. Afaik, JW is against the use of guns and they don't serve in the military in a fighting capacity (I'm no expert, happy to be corrected if I'm wrong on this).

 

[mj_frenzy]

I'm a heathen so this isn't my battle but I'm curious about this claim. Is this really true? How do you know? I never paid much attention to Michael's personal life plus media stories about Michael, I take them with a pinch of salt. This sounds highly dubious to me. I vaguely remember reading that JW were on the sets of some of his videos and didn't like the gun in SC video but, again, is it actually true or is it just hyped up media nonsense? Bc if JW was monitoring Michael's clothes what were they aiming for? He did dress relatively modestly but, otoh, he was tearing his shirt off in live shows long before the DD video. He wore tight pants long before the Bad era. Monitoring his clothes how, exactly? For what purpose?

As for his songwriting, again, where's the evidence? His collaborators have never mentioned anything about this, afaik. JW controlled or monitored what he wrote about? The lyrics of TPH/HH, for example?

If JW was trying to control Michael (and, presumably, Janet also) they don't seem to have done a very good job. The JW does seem to be fairly conservative - as lots of churches are - but I'm not seeing evidence of them controlling anything. I've seen media stories from people who have left JW and I'm not rubbishing their claims. I'm only interested in this idea that JW tried to control and monitor what Michael did / wore / wrote. Bc I'm not seeing it, tbh.

EDIT - obviously there is Thriller and the disclaimer Michael included at the start of the video. But that's the only solid example I can think of. Where's the evidence for all these other claims?

Here's a statement from the UK branch of JW about whether certain songs or films are banned:

"No. Our organization doesn’t review specific movies, books, or songs so as to rule on what individuals should avoid ... Outside the family, however, no one is authorized to ban specific films, songs, or artists as being unacceptable for Witnesses in general."

Clearly, JW had issues with the content of the Thriller video. I'm not disputing that. It's this wider claim that I'm not so sure about. Afaik, JW is against the use of guns and they don't serve in the military in a fighting capacity (I'm no expert, happy to be corrected if I'm wrong on this).

Michael Jackson was chastised multiple times by Jehovah's Witnesses leaders for certain things that he did as an artist in his music.

He spoke about that to his close friend and spiritual advisor Rabbi Shmuley Boteach in the early '00s, for example:

"When I did certain things in the past that I didn't realize were against the [Jehovah's Witnesses] religion and I was reprimanded for it, it almost destroyed me. Certain things that I did as an artist in my music I didn't realize I was crossing a line with them and when they chastised me, it really hurt me ... When I did the Moonwalk [dance] for the first time, Motown 25, they told me I was doing burlesque dancing and it was dirty and I went for months and they said, 'You can never dance like that again'" (Michael Jackson)

Jehovah's Witnesses leaders also published an article in one of their official magazines (at that time) warning their followers to be on the lookout for music that pulled them away from Jehovah.

 

[mack77]

I'm a heathen so this isn't my battle but I'm curious about this claim. Is this really true? How do you know?

Its not really a simplistic answer. Michael's spiritual upbringing obviously inspired him. Can you feel it, Heartbreak hotel, all the peace songs/ non violence, huminatarian goals etc. He would not have been MJ without that upbringing and spiritual centre . But he was obviously had a talking to in regard to the Thriller video and other aspects of his art at times which they saw as in conflict with Christian teachings. Nevertheless, that upbringing still inspired him in later life.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Michael Jackson was chastised multiple times by Jehovah's Witnesses leaders for certain things that he did as an artist in his music.

He spoke about that to his close friend and spiritual advisor Rabbi Shmuley Boteach in the early '00s, for example:

"When I did certain things in the past that I didn't realize were against the [Jehovah's Witnesses] religion and I was reprimanded for it, it almost destroyed me. Certain things that I did as an artist in my music I didn't realize I was crossing a line with them and when they chastised me, it really hurt me ... When I did the Moonwalk [dance] for the first time, Motown 25, they told me I was doing burlesque dancing and it was dirty and I went for months and they said, 'You can never dance like that again'" (Michael Jackson)

Interesting. So it would seem JW did monitor him and they also chastised him. Didn't really work though, did it? They certainly weren't controlling him, imo. Bc Michael continued to do the moonwalk. He did it on the Victory tour. He ripped his shirt to expose his bare chest. Did lots of sexy hip thrusts. If that's 'burlesque' dancing Michael wasn't letting anyone stop him from doing it. He just kept on going.

Jehovah's Witnesses leaders also published an article in one of their official magazines (at that time) warning their followers to be on the lookout for music that pulled them away from Jehovah.

OK, that's interesting. Did the article specifically mention Michael? What year was this? 1983? 1984?

Its not really a simplistic answer. Michael's spiritual upbringing obviously inspired him. Can you feel it, Heartbreak hotel, all the peace songs/ non violence, huminatarian goals etc. He would not have been MJ without that upbringing and spiritual centre . But he was obviously had a talking to in regard to the Thriller video and other aspects of his art at times which they saw as in conflict with Christian teachings. Nevertheless, that upbringing still inspired him in later life.

I'm not disputing this at all. Every aspect of Michael's life would have influenced him in some way, the church, Katherine's understanding of the JW teachings plus her own ideas and values, the experiences with Joe, Rose Fine as a teacher and substitute mother figure. Lots of stuff. What I'm disputing was the claim that JW controlled Michael bc I can't see it. frenzy has just posted info re JW monitoring Michael. Fair enough. But I'm still not seeing where it controlled him. Btw, I'm not the one criticising JW, I'm just trying to understand something which, atm, doesn't quite add up.

I've said many times I love the fact that Michael was a man of faith and prayer. I have no problem with that and, in fact, I love the fact that he spoke about it so openly. I think it's brilliant. I have zero problem with the religious influences in his lyrics. But the suggestion that JW was controlling him, I'm still not convinced by that. Moviefan said this:

[...] They sank their claws into him like crazy, [...]

Even if this is true (I'm not convinced) it didn't seem to have any effect on his work so they might as well not have bothered.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

OK, that's interesting. Did the article specifically mention Michael? What year was this? 1983? 1984?

It was an interview with Michael. About 40 years ago.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101984368&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=18

 

[zinniabooklover]

It was an interview with Michael. About 40 years ago.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=101984368&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=18

Thanks, Mr JT. I've seen that quote from Michael many times but didn't know it came from this article which I've never seen before. The article seems pretty mild to me. Seems like it's more intended to get a discussion going amongst a group of teens. Ngl, the quote from Michael does bother me. The Thriller video is a fabulous piece of work - of art, actually - and I hate the idea that Michael might have come to see it in a negative light. That said, I'd need to know a lot more about his thinking on this. He did go on to make Ghosts (admittedly after he'd left JW). He speaks favourably of Thriller in the 1999 MTV interview.

Two quotes, one showing JW wanting Michael not to do the moonwalk ever again - which he absolutely did, the very next year - and this quote here about the Thriller video. So that's a concern, sure, but I'm still not seeing where it shows JW trying to control his clothes or his lyrics.

Anyway, I'll leave it now.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Two quotes, one showing JW wanting Michael not to do the moonwalk ever again - which he absolutely did, the very next year

I think he was specifying more the routine, particularly the crotch grabbing and hip thrusting. Which he did go on to do to far more extreme lengths. In the Victory Tour he did kind of modify the choreography.

I'll go into further detail on my perspective on things later.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I think he was specifying more the routine,

Fair point.

particularly the crotch grabbing and hip thrusting.

I mean, it's not really a crotch grab imo but I can see it from the JW point of view, I guess. I don't agree with the JW take on the routine but it is interesting trying to see it through their eyes.

Which he did go on to do to far more extreme lengths. In the Victory Tour he did kind of modify the choreography.

I'll go into further detail on my perspective on things later.

I'm slightly intrigued that JW complained to Michael about Motown 25. He was doing sexy hip thrusts and ripping his shirt on the Triumph tour. Maybe the 1983 thing was bc of it being on tv in front of such a huge audience. The kids didn't have to be at a show, it was a tv performance being beamed into people's homes. Maybe that's what the church leaders didn't like.

Just thinking out loud, here.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Fair point.
I mean, it's not really a crotch grab imo but I can see it from the JW point of view, I guess. I don't agree with the JW take on the routine but it is interesting trying to see it through their eyes.
I'm slightly intrigued that JW complained to Michael about Motown 25. He was doing sexy hip thrusts and ripping his shirt on the Triumph tour. Maybe the 1983 thing was bc of it being on tv in front of such a huge audience. The kids didn't have to be at a show, it was a tv performance being beamed into people's homes. Maybe that's what the church leaders didn't like.

Just thinking out loud, here.

Well, now I'll just clarify. Because when you say JW, that's just too grandiose to me.

The more likely reality is that MJ talked to two or so older men, just a couple of adult men entrusted with responsibility, in his local area. In what he considered his home base. We're talking men that Michael likely knew, probably on a first name basis, perhaps for a significant period of time. Definitely, Katherine knew them. And trusted them, perhaps they even had a say in who they spoke to. This wasn't an alien encounter.

These men had their own personal feelings, and opinions, on various things, and they would've tempered this either way based on the Bible, on studied verses they've interpreted. They'd emphasize, modesty. A sensitivity to coming across in a way that would appear too, not tame.

This would all be shared with Michael in a, perhaps concerned, but still regardless, non-antagonistic way. But of course Michael was a sensitive soul, and it is fair to say he would not take counsel and/or criticism extremely, balanced, let's say. He'd get anxious. Nobody exactly loves counsel.

Either way still, this was over 40 years ago. In a totally different world with totally different sensibilities. What Michael did essentially began to usher in the modern world. Things are very different now, and most of what he did is considered tame, downright child friendly at times. So yeah, that is just the way of the world.

And MJ must've mellowed out some, he kept a tame image. Not any tattoos, not so much abrasive language. He did not go on too "wild" of an arc all things considered. By his 40s he still had nothing negative to say about his faith, and he even entrusted the kids to stay with his mom and accompany her to the Kingdom Hall.

I think what's lesser talked about is MJs liaisons with women. Like you said, he had energy on the Triumph tour still.

Tatum O'Neal and Ola Ray, etc, have stories, they can't all be false. And what would offend most Christians more than fantasy and stories is relations with a woman you're not married to. I feel like that sort of thing would get brought up to Michael too. Hence maybe why he did embrace a more, conservative public appearance.