the veiled 'concern for MJ' thread.

[144000]

sometimes, i feel, when MJ is going thru a crisis, and i talk about being patient and waiting for the outcome, i am accused of worship.
sometimes i feel that someone is waiting for me to be wrong about MJ, more than waiting for MJ to be alright. sometimes i feel like someone is waiting to tell me 'i told you so'.

it shouldn't matter how many times i repeat the wait and see attitude.

 

[arXter]

what about the third batch that can't stand the first nor second?

 

[144000]

i don't know about you, but it takes a lot of energy for me to come in, initiating an idea of not being able to stand somebody, without them doing something to me, personally, first. i can understand defending yourself against somebody after they threw the first salvo, but i can't imagine, going in, deciding that you're going to initiate a form of hate.

 

[arXter]

before the convenient editing on your original post,

batch1 was: defensive optimist idealist apologist (or as you put it "always positive")

batch2: doom attitude no matter what, "i told you so" people


it doesn't take much energy to declare one's loathing for both inferior classes of attitudes.

"going in to initiate a form of hate"? i've stopped posting in these ridiculous gossipy intrusive threads a long time ago. i also love it when people go on and on against "invasive speculations bla bla bla" when they just contributed a third of the overall postings in the 1000-post thread discussing someone else's private matters.

i guess it's a form of entertainment to read around here, so i shouldn't complain.

 

[144000]

so what is an 'apologist' apologizing for?

what's with all the 'ists'?

and what is the person posting the one third, invading, when, usually that person is declaring they don't know, and they want to reserve judgement?

and, so, you are superior in attitude? how?

and, you find it easy to initiate hate, when you are usually defensive against people who you feel initiate hate towards people who express tendancies more to your liking? what if people decide to initiate hate toward your attitude?

since when is it constructive to initiate hate toward anyone?

 

[arXter]

as i recall, the only person going on about "initiating hate" was you.

in fact, this whole thread was born out of a frustrated agenda-driven outburst against a "batch" of people you described in detail before the sneaky edit.

so what makes it right for you to criticise one "batch" and so wrong that i think both extremes are embarrassing and hurtful to the community?

 

[144000]

as i recall, the only person going on about "initiating hate" was you.

in fact, this whole thread was born out of a frustrated agenda-driven outburst against a "batch" of people you described in detail before the sneaky edit.

so what makes it right for you to criticise one "batch" and so wrong that i think both extremes are embarrassing and hurtful to the community?

first of all, i'm reacting to people who seem to hate on people who are positive toward MJ. so that's not initiating hate. that's reacting.

second of all, if i edit a post, it's understandable reactionary anger towards the hate, and my attempt to still check myself, in honor of the community, which is something you refuse to do. you prefer lighting a fuse, by eliminating my attempt to check myself, and you prefer initiating hate, to 'protect the community'.

and your idea of using the word 'embarrassing and hurtful' is totally vague, and conveniently without meaning. at least, have the decency to define how it's embarrassing and hurtful to be positive.

so i want to check myself and try to withdraw a sword by using the edit button, but you prefer to draw a sword by deleting the purpose of the edit button?

and..o man who loves to pick a fight, so much, he blindly forgets the rules, the purpose of this section is to look for people who share the views of the particular thread, not find those who don't. if you hate this group of people with this attitude toward Michael, you can kindly leave, like you said you would, 'a long time ago'.

it took one hell of a reach for you to get all the way down here to this thread.

oh..and, by the way, you still didn't answer what is it the 'apologist' is apologizing for?

 

[Mechi]

well I came in here to support but now I admitt I'm a bit clueless.

There's just one thing coming to my mind reading this thread and that's confidence includes serenity.
Reading the whole mjjcommunity message board that comes again and again to my mind cuz I personally don't have anything against 'negative' ppl (everyone has a bad day once in a while) and also I don't have anything against 'positive' ppl (everyone is euphoric once in a while) also I don't have anything against all those ppl in between those extreme poles... but what's missing with many ppl is simply this serenity to let ppl be... however they feel like being that day.
There's the serenity (I've not find a better english term for what I mean sorry) missing to even not judge ppl into categories like positive or negative, worshipper or hater... there's the serenity missing to not feel attacked by someone just throwing words like that around very easily whyever.
There's the serenity missing to not get defensive and just be understanding for someone else being and that's why thinking different.
Instead most of us want to be 'the right one' and the others to be 'the wrong one'.
I can only say... I don't think life is that easy... it's not only clear categories... it's not only black or white and it's not only right or wrong... there's a whole lot of in between what makes life at times complicate and other times beautiful.

Both of you have a point.

VNC you're simply entitled to your opinion about ppl (and I am not saying this opinion is right or wrong as much as it's probably not the only opinion possible!!!). However I understand where you're coming from and why you're feeling the way you do.
Ppl 'blaming' you to be a worshipper hurts because that indicates you're not living in reality and it's also indicating they don't wanna take you serious. If this happens it's surely not a nice feeling.

Then again what arxter probably wanted to point out from the beginning is, if you do not just put an opinion/judgement out there (being positive or not) but also signalize some tolerance for someone thinking different (without just calling them haters or worshippers) it will save you from getting the same in return, just an unfair judgement/name.

Actually there is no need to call eachother negative or positive... that's just a judgement like hater or worshipper.
We need to discuss without calling eachother names or puting eachother into categories. However there's some really interest for a topic, for eachothers opinion and where someone is coming from needed and not just the need to profile ourselves.
And that's where most of us should really question ourselves, click on the preview button first, think again and then only post.

Again I do think both of you do have a strong point and knowing many of your guys posts on this board I do know you're able to find that understanding for eachother... I don't even think you're far apart from eachother... stop preaching and try to understand eachother... you'll see you both have strong points and it's possible to let the other one just be that. There's not only one form of living possible... there's space enough. Let the other one be, think, talk, chose, live different... at the end of the day we all are and will always be different... but also at the end of the day let's also emphasize what we do have in common... we're MJJ fans and that makes us community... well that means if we do find the tolerance inside even every other family needs to be one.

And now please don't jump on me for coming in between you guys here... it was a try to support both of you!

 

[arXter]

And now please don't jump on me for coming in between you guys here... it was a try to support both of you!

certainly not, that was a very reasonable, and grounding take on the situation.


Vncwilliam,

second of all, if i edit a post, it's understandable reactionary anger towards the hate, and my attempt to still check myself, in honor of the community,

when the first post was created (from the title to the content), followed by my response to what was written - it was a completely different take on the situation, and i found it very ironic that you'd then respond to me about "initiating hate".

and your idea of using the word 'embarrassing and hurtful' is totally vague, and conveniently without meaning. at least, have the decency to define how it's embarrassing and hurtful to be positive.

there are two extremes that you're grouping people in. "always positive" people and those that react to the imbalance and then go wayward themselves with some idiotically negative views, or simply start off with idiotically negative take on the situation.

this attitude seems to be very rampant on such big boards for bloody know what reason, but extremism in any case is never good.

and by apologists, i mean those who are constantly defensive of MJ's actions that border on not only trying to simply "withhold judgement", but trying their hardest to put a positive light on it.

you can even say that a lot of the negativity and "hate" is itself a reactionary process against this very attitude.

i absolutely detest the focus and invasiveness on Michael's (or any celebrity's) private business and life around these big boards, and always find it hypocritical and ironic that people still discuss it and involve themselves in the speculations and/or pretension of knowledge while they pretend to respect the man's privacy.

 

[Momma Shannon]

I think it's more a issue of picking battles and taking them too far no matter where you fall in those categories. Everyone else on the board isn't the enemy and everyone thinks differently. Just gets old when people continuously become repeatitive and jump on every post because of their own emotions be it for the better or worse. We have both sides clearly represented on MJJC. I don't even know that the arguements stem from the actual thoughts in the posts. Honestly sometimes I think they don't read the posts at all just see the username and its just the fact that the individuals are constantly forcing the views down each others throats and now they want to win some imaginary battle.

Ok, that may not have been productive or supportive - think I'm the one seeking support with that post :lol: But it's just my opinion of what I see happening.

Not allowing breathing space for fellow members opinions.

 

[Autumn II]

I think some of the negative posts that seem like attacks -- well, they ARE attacks or criticism of others, but if you look more deeply, that's one way that people react to stress. Doesn't make it easier to take, but it helps to understand.

Here is a little story (sorry if this seems digressive -- it isn't, though). I once saw two cats on an apartment building's roof. They had climbed a tree and jumped onto the roof from a branch. But, they couldn't get back to the branch and off the roof! They were trapped. At first these cats seemed companionable as they looked for ways off the roof (too high to jump from). As the afternoon wore on they began to panic, and then they began to attack each other and fight! STRESS! (Eventually a maintainance guy got a ladder and got them down).

Even though a fellow poster is not responsible for a given situation that causes anxiety, as one becomes more anxious one can look for outlets, for ways to express anger and worry. Unfortunately, the target can become other fans. Like the cats on the roof, it's just because they are closer? If one knows this is a possible reaction to stress, it's easier to avoid DOING that, and easier to forgive those who do.

If you feel like popping off at someone and are very stressed, the best thing to do is shift gears and take yourself away from the situation. Go outdoors and take a walk, listen to music, or do something DIFFERENT until you calm down. And most of all, in a difficult situation be understanding and supportive of others who may be going through the same emotions as you are, but may be reacting differently.

 

[Mechi]

We have both sides clearly represented on MJJC.

Actually I see many sides clearly represented... actually it's more than 'both' indicates, many more than only two sides.

Ok, that may not have been productive or supportive - think I'm the one seeking support with that post :lol: But it's just my opinion of what I see happening.

lol sounds funny Shannon but hey even you're entitled to your opinion! sounds funny eh ?! but yep some members seem to expect mods and 'mommas' (oh sorry in this special case there's only one *giggle* one and only) to be always neutral... so here's your support :clapping: you guys on here are doing an amazing job. I'd hire most of you for my working place lol honestly!

Not allowing breathing space for fellow members opinions.

indeed we very much agree as sad as it looks at times.
That's why I think we need to overthink the poles of one dimension or only two sides possible thinking... there's not only right or wrong... it's simply not that when one feels right that the other one having a different opinion is automatically wrong... nope get ready... life is not that easy... then again it's so simple.

 

[Mechi]

I think some of the negative posts that seem like attacks -- well, they ARE attacks or criticism of others, but if you look more deeply, that's one way that people react to stress. Doesn't make it easier to take, but it helps to understand.

Here is a little story (sorry if this seems digressive -- it isn't, though). I once saw two cats on an apartment building's roof. They had climbed a tree and jumped onto the roof from a branch. But, they couldn't get back to the branch and off the roof! They were trapped. At first these cats seemed companionable as they looked for ways off the roof (too high to jump from). As the afternoon wore on they began to panic, and then they began to attack each other and fight! STRESS! (Eventually a maintainance guy got a ladder and got them down).

Even though a fellow poster is not responsible for a given situation that causes anxiety, as one becomes more anxious one can look for outlets, for ways to express anger and worry. Unfortunately, the target can become other fans. Like the cats on the roof, it's just because they are closer? If one knows this is a possible reaction to stress, it's easier to avoid DOING that, and easier to forgive those who do.

If you feel like popping off at someone and are very stressed, the best thing to do is shift gears and take yourself away from the situation. Go outdoors and take a walk, listen to music, or do something DIFFERENT until you calm down. And most of all, in a difficult situation be understanding and supportive of others who may be going through the same emotions as you are, but may be reacting differently.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Autumn II]

Good points, Mechi. And then, of course, some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. In those cases, the worst thing you can do from their standpoint. . . is NOTHING. Seriously. If you don't respond. . . . . . they can't come back at you with something worse. An argument with just one person in it is not an argument -- it's a RANT, and that, too, shall pass.

Carry on,

Vic

 

[Momma Shannon]

I think Vic is right a lot can be attributed to stress or the knee-jerk reaction we have when trying to sort out what's happening. We just have to remember there isn't anything we can do to change most of the issues and we are just spectators.

Actually I see many sides clearly represented... actually it's more than 'both' indicates, many more than only two sides.

lol you are right there are definately more than two sides but I couldn't think to say all that just easier to put both I was having a moment :lol:

lol sounds funny Shannon but hey even you're entitled to your opinion! sounds funny eh ?! but yep some members seem to expect mods and 'mommas' (oh sorry in this special case there's only one *giggle* one and only) to be always neutral... so here's your support :clapping: you guys on here are doing an amazing job. I'd hire most of you for my working place lol honestly!

Aww, :hug:

indeed we very much agree as sad as it looks at times.
That's why I think we need to overthink the poles of one dimension or only two sides possible thinking... there's not only right or wrong... it's simply not that when one feels right that the other one having a different opinion is automatically wrong... nope get ready... life is not that easy... then again it's so simple.

lol and that is much easier to say and even understand then it is to grasp in a usable fashion :yes:

 

[144000]

but you see...here's the kicker, though. everybody who has attacked me for being overly positive about MJ, has an object of their own affection that they never say anything negative about. i've observed the board, and i don't feel the need to name names, but there is no exception. it just so happens, to be that the object of my fanship happens to be the host celebrity of this board.

i can't speak for others who are overly positive about MJ, but i have not posted any links to any documents, or claimed to know any facts and figures about MJ, save the fact that he has a catalogue that keeps generating extreme revenue, that he already made public, and Sony made public.

i do not claim to know the status of his situation, in, for example the Bain situation. i simply have said a glorified 'i don't know'. and want to reserve judgement. and, that's the right thing to do. i see a thread about a very sensitive subject, right now, where victims are saying they do not want to be judged, because others don't know. that should apply to everybody, including Michael. that's all i have ever been saying.


and, quite frankly, i have never had to eat crow, when it comes to Michael's outcomes. that's not just empty positivity. that's just fact. it's not a matter of me trying to pump sunshine. it's simply accounting for what has happened, so far, over and over again, at the end of MJ crises. if the record of MJ consisted of a peppering of negative outcomes, alternating with positive outcomes, and i mentioned them all, then no one would complain. it just so happens that every outcome, thus far, has been positive. so, i mentioned it. and, somehow, the reaction has been overblown for some reason, when people criticized me. that doesn't make any sense.

there are a lot of negative things in this world. i can talk about them. right now, there is just one celebrity that i keep talking positive about. just one. and for some, that seems to be too much for them to hear me talk about.

i have tunnel vision when i mention MJ achievments. i don't target other posters. but as soon as i post positive posts, it's others that react to me, as if i committed a crime. then, i react.

and the reality is, everybody who has reacted critically to my positive posts have a record of being more negative about MJ than they are positive. and they claim to know his intimate financial and other affairs, when, in fact, they are on the outside, right along with me.

i am not an apologist. there is nothing for me to apologise for, when MJ is bringing sunshine into a world that is mostly dark, and i mention that.

 

[arXter]

but you see...here's the kicker, though. everybody who has attacked me for being overly positive about MJ, has an object of their own affection that they never say anything negative about.

i've criticised you numerous of times on such matters, and yet i've always kept realistically grounded on any "object of my own affection", including Michael Jackson.

i seem to recall we've had a similar "rationality" debate before.

 

[144000]

i've criticised you numerous of times on such matters, and yet i've always kept realistically grounded on any "object of my own affection", including Michael Jackson.

i seem to recall we've had a similar "rationality" debate before.

i don't keep a record of our debates. so, i certainly don't know what rationality debate you are talking about. the bottom line is this. you grew up in a certain environment, and i grew up in another. neither of us has a right to look down the nose of the other. as someone on here said, there is room for both of us. and the community is still standing. perhaps our environments determine our views.

 

[Soso Deaf]

well u got me wrong babe...i talk crap about everyone...i call it like i see it, idol be damned! lol

the ONLY person u should look up to is urself....cuz only u know if you'll let urself down or not and only u can prevent such a reaction.

that being said, there are fans who have a willingness to let everything slide. explain away everything, and it's a bit alarming.



it's alarming when something that is in black and white, definitions given et al, and fans still won't accept reality. like the raymone situation....sorry but a default is a default and u got fans acting like this is mj's super master plan....that's ridiculous

a wait and see attitude works for some, i dig that cuz u don't stress, u don't really react on emotions but at the same time, u can't play everything off. everyth ing isn't easily explained away and that's what a lot of fans try to do.

and when things are revealed that show they were all wrong, they flip even worse than the ones who flip and calm down.

im n ot saying let's all be consistently negative and im not tellng u how to think,im just saying, u got fans who are on a level and u have fans on another level...

each group criticizes the other, no one wins when something bad happens to mj and we say 'i told u so' just like when the otherside shows that mj came away virtually unscathed.

it's a state of mind and everyone's is different. i listen, i read, and then when im confronted w/ cold hard facts, then i make a comment...if not, i ASSume. we all know the outcome of doing such a thing, however, i like to lessen the blow of something

here's to hoping this thread is just the start of open communications and again, hoping that we're all a magnanimous bunch and can deal w/ criticism.

 

[144000]

well u got me wrong babe...i talk crap about everyone...i call it like i see it, idol be damned! lol

the ONLY person u should look up to is urself....cuz only u know if you'll let urself down or not and only u can prevent such a reaction.

that being said, there are fans who have a willingness to let everything slide. explain away everything, and it's a bit alarming.



it's alarming when something that is in black and white, definitions given et al, and fans still won't accept reality. like the raymone situation....sorry but a default is a default and u got fans acting like this is mj's super master plan....that's ridiculous

a wait and see attitude works for some, i dig that cuz u don't stress, u don't really react on emotions but at the same time, u can't play everything off. everyth ing isn't easily explained away and that's what a lot of fans try to do.

and when things are revealed that show they were all wrong, they flip even worse than the ones who flip and calm down.

im n ot saying let's all be consistently negative and im not tellng u how to think,im just saying, u got fans who are on a level and u have fans on another level...

each group criticizes the other, no one wins when something bad happens to mj and we say 'i told u so' just like when the otherside shows that mj came away virtually unscathed.

it's a state of mind and everyone's is different. i listen, i read, and then when im confronted w/ cold hard facts, then i make a comment...if not, i ASSume. we all know the outcome of doing such a thing, however, i like to lessen the blow of something

here's to hoping this thread is just the start of open communications and again, hoping that we're all a magnanimous bunch and can deal w/ criticism.

yeah. i like some of what u said, and i don't like some of what u said. but then, we're all like that.

in short, i'll say that i'm still waiting for somn bad to happen to Mj. well..let me rephrase that..i have yet to see somn happen bad...other than a roaring lion who has chastised him, from behind a microphone. and that ain't bad..that's just media hot air. and, in my opinion, panicking fans, who believe the media is the be all know all and end all, and never editorialize anything, have fallen victim to that roaring lion without proof of that lion being right. lol

i don't think we're letting stuff slide. i think i'm calling it as i see it, too. i live by that credo, and tho everybody is supposed to suffer in life, nothing bad has happened to me, in the truly bad sense.

a lot of times i go by gut feelings. in my gut, MJ was generous to Bain. i mean, she changed her address. and it's a nice new address. but because MJ is MJ, he wasn't generous enough in her eyes. because, to most people, outside of MJ, the more they get, the more they want. and she's suing him cus he gave her too much. and for her, that's not enough. and i'm waiting to say 'i told u so'. , when she loses this battle.

 

[Soso Deaf]

naw, i live w/ the rationale that everyone in mj's life will screw him over....i don't care who they is. cept his chillun....

it's just when and how bad, IMO.

he didn't handle his biz and look what happend. u can blame it on whomeever but when push come to shove, if it's ur biz and ur money, it ultimately falls on u.

i don't like to spin things out of control either in his favour or against him. i keep it along the bounds of reality and some people can't handle that.

but in life, i treat everyone like family and i will have u rback until u do me wrong.

i was taken advantage of many times during the trial, providing hotel rooms for fans, giving them food, etc.....and it bit me in the ass every time but i learned from it. mj can't afford to go through that, now.

he has an empire he has to re-build...call it what u want but this is his way back on a large scale. he has two things to do to make this work....do ur job, and don't piss off the bosses.....

he shouldn't be messing w/ old employees (dileo) or doing anything that will derail his focus on these shows. he needs to show eveyrone he can do it again. a contract is a contract and it's simple, u dont do it, ur in an even worse spot now than u were before.

im very real about the potentail for disaster and im prepared at all times for it. it's sad but being gone form here for two days can be major w/ the way thing shave been going now. news, pictures...etc...what other artist can say that for themselves or their fan base?

he's the biggest artist for a reason, now he has to show the world y he's the kop...cuz they seem to have forgotten.

that being said, fans w/ the opposite positions on rationale can get along...it can be a happy medium and a respectful one at that, but those refusing to believe what' sbeing shown at face value not only have my repsect but my pitty as well....

u can't spin the truth when it's starting at u in teh face

 

[Mechi]

well yeah I'd like to ask ppl please to differ very much what's really media hype and what's fact proven through documents and such.

One can of cuz escape into thinking Michael has survived it all yet... but then again a human being is limited and can only take so much.

Sure he'll most likely always be sued by someone especially in the US legal system in which you can sue someone for the most ridiculous reasons it seems (not talking especially MJish but in general lol) BUT then again there are celebrities who do not have to cuz they're not feeding possibilities... if it's about a good team of trustworthy ppl around them... whatever... I don't like that Michael seems to be an easy target, whyever.

Ms. Bain doesn't deserve that amount of money!

It should had been possible to sign a very clear and strict contract with her when hiring her and then just keep up to it.
I'm not clear why this seem to happen again and again especially with ppl around Michael.

Case John Landis, he has been a friend... there should had been the possibility for Michael or even someone in Michaels team to clear from the very beginning: 'ok we're about to make this deal with someone what will be your part in it' and then simply pay this part.
John Landis signalized himself in an interview he'd like to talk/negotiate about all of this I think months or even a year before he actually went to court. It should have been possible to make a connection between Michaels and his ppl to clear this BEFORE it went to court...

That's a pattern that jumps into eyes I think.

And sometimes I'm worried... I mean honestly yes of cuz it's completely up to Michael how he wants to spend his money... and if it's his will to spend it at court then be it...
But to me it just looks a bit stubborn somehow... don't know if someone knows what I mean... and then yes I do think one human being can only take so much and I sincerly hope for Michael the world he's calling and/or creating to be his own (and this way also the world for his children and finally also millions of millions of often also pretty fragile seeming fans) will not be shattered one day.

 

[144000]

naw, i live w/ the rationale that everyone in mj's life will screw him over....i don't care who they is. cept his chillun....

it's just when and how bad, IMO.

he didn't handle his biz and look what happend. u can blame it on whomeever but when push come to shove, if it's ur biz and ur money, it ultimately falls on u.

i don't like to spin things out of control either in his favour or against him. i keep it along the bounds of reality and some people can't handle that.

but in life, i treat everyone like family and i will have u rback until u do me wrong.

i was taken advantage of many times during the trial, providing hotel rooms for fans, giving them food, etc.....and it bit me in the ass every time but i learned from it. mj can't afford to go through that, now.

he has an empire he has to re-build...call it what u want but this is his way back on a large scale. he has two things to do to make this work....do ur job, and don't piss off the bosses.....

he shouldn't be messing w/ old employees (dileo) or doing anything that will derail his focus on these shows. he needs to show eveyrone he can do it again. a contract is a contract and it's simple, u dont do it, ur in an even worse spot now than u were before.

im very real about the potentail for disaster and im prepared at all times for it. it's sad but being gone form here for two days can be major w/ the way thing shave been going now. news, pictures...etc...what other artist can say that for themselves or their fan base?

he's the biggest artist for a reason, now he has to show the world y he's the kop...cuz they seem to have forgotten.

that being said, fans w/ the opposite positions on rationale can get along...it can be a happy medium and a respectful one at that, but those refusing to believe what' sbeing shown at face value not only have my repsect but my pitty as well....

u can't spin the truth when it's starting at u in teh face

the one thing i agree with u about is everybody is out to screw him.

everything else i disagree with, cus, no business is allowed to survive this long, unless it's good business. no matter what noise is surrounding it.

also...u can't go by everything u see. everything is not black and white. nobody tells the truth in ur face.

but, as MJ said...lies run in sprints, and the truth runs marathons. a lot of lies have come into MJ's life. their sprints have been here and gone.

MJ has been running the marathon for more than forty four years. if u can't see that, i don't know what else to say.

i have learned not to look for peoples' approval. it's a good thing to learn.

it looks to me like MJ operates that way too. i admire him for that.

personally..lol...i think the best business decision he has ever made is not to stay married. lol. he don't need someone dressin him down. lol. i can imagine someone tellin him everything he's doin is wrong. eeeeshhhhhh. lol.

*sigh* i'm just soo tired from all the negativity. i just am. but i'll get renewed. i always do.

i notice the most successful people who stay in the spotlight don't have someone constantly dressing them down.