No no. I was only bringing up HBk's achievements because you started off with listing Y2J's. I know people like Hogan and Austin are WAY more popular than HBK. I was never trying to make it a popularity contest. Even Vince said Stone Cold was THE biggest star in terms of popularity in the WWE. He broke records.
That was just me trolling in the spirit of Jericho's character though. Y2J
does have a more impressive championship resume than HBK, although that's not the most important thing since Triple H is a 13 time World Champion and Austin is still bigger than him.
I have to say HBK is a better heel AND a better babyface than Y2J. Because when he was a heel, people absolutely HATED this man back in the day. Both in the ring and in the back. He was even more hated (especially among Canadians) after the Survivor Series of 97'. and when he was a face, people LOVED him to death. He got more cheers than Jericho ever did. And this is not saying HBK got the most cheers ever, that was just something for this whole HBK vs. Y2j debate.
Nah, I don't see that at all. I don't think Shawn Michaels has ever played as masterful and as hatable of a heel as Jericho in the past couple years. Everything Jericho does manipulates people to hate him based just off his spoken word. He is a "pure heel" in every sense of the phrase; his sole function is to be villainous, whereas Michaels has never really entered or captured that level of unlikability in his performances as a bad guy. Saying that HBK gets more heat in Canada doesn't say much for HBK as an actual performer because that's based on a real life incident that many Canadian fans legitimately have beef with him over. Shawn played it up well, especially in 2005 when he was feuding with Hogan, but he didn't do or say anything Jericho couldn't have done better if he were in the same position.
As a babyface, there was a time when Jericho was getting pops that rivaled The Rock's when The Rock was actually still around, and this was when Y2J was pretty much a MID-CARDER. Off the top of my head I don't remember a mid-carder ever blowing the roof off arenas the way Jericho did in that time... Maybe Austin did back in '97 while he was right on the verge of transitioning into a main-eventer, but I'd have to go back and check it out. If you doubt how popular Jericho actually was, consider that when he first arrived to WWF, he was known only as a cruiserweight from WCW to the WWF fans, and the place absolutely came unglued when the name "JERICHO" was revealed on the titantron as the man behind the mystery countdown. Imagine what level he would be at right now if WWF had ran with him at that exact point and built him up as their top guy. Would he bigger than Austin, Rock, Hogan? Fuck no. Could he have been bigger than Shawn Michaels? Hell yes. In the end, the cards have been dealt and while Jericho isn't as popular as HBK, he's a more despised villain and that's good enough for me since I'm usually a bigger fan of the heels anyway.
And on the microphone, Chris Jericho as a babyface was wittier, funnier, much easier to empathize with, and just all-around a stronger good guy character than HBK in his prime. As a face, I honestly don't think Shawn was ever that great until he came out of retirement and became the respected wily veteran character he's played since then. The past few years have actually been HBK's best work as a babyface. In his younger years, his mic work as a babyface ranged from average to just "good." Not to say he didn't have the occasional "great" promo here and there.
And when I say the greatest of all time, I mean in the ring and not popularity. NO ONE in WWE history has had more iconic and memorable matches as HBK has had. NO ONE.
I already agreed that HBK has put on more memorable matches more often. Jericho might be a better technician, but Shawn is better at putting on edge-of-your-seat type of matches. If you were trying to say that HBK is the greatest
in-ring performer of all-time, then that's different. And that's only one aspect of the hundred different aspects of being a pro wrestler in America.
Did you even watch the first video posted? People like Cena, Jericho, HHH, Jim Ross, Vince McMahon, etc. claiming HBK was the best in ring performer. even the Rick Flair said so himself. Jericho even said HBK was like Lennon and McCartney in the ring.
Why do I need to watch a bunch of people's opinions when I have my own? If all those people had said Jericho was better than HBK would you change your mind?
Of coarse Jericho is talented, but not at HBK's level.
LOL, saying Jericho's not even at HBK's level is just fucking stupid. He's too good to say he's not even in the same ballpark as Michaels. I don't know how someone who has seen Jericho's matches with Benoit, Malenko, Mysterio, etc. can say that. HBK isn't the omnipotent god people on the Internet make him out to be. Even as I am giving you my reasons for why I think Jericho is slightly better, I wouldn't say something as absurd as "HBK isn't in his league."
What gets me is that although Shawn Michaels essentially wasn't drawing flies to shit back when he was WWF's golden boy, he is heralded as the greatest of all-time based solely on the assertion that he is the most brilliant "all-around performer" in the history of life, and the fact is that there are a few people who give him a run for his money in this department. I've already talked about Jericho, but look at a guy like Randy Savage...
The Macho Man in his prime was BRILLIANT in the ring (the dude had a captivating edge-of-your-seat match with the ULTIMATE WARRIOR, for Christ's sake), and on the charismatic side of things he had a persona that was so larger-than-life that he was actually comparable to Hulk Freakin' Hogan in popularity at one point. Shit, HBK and Mach are in the same ballpark in the ring when they were both at their best, but Savage absolutely CRUSHES Michaels as a persona. If you combine Macho Man's character with his in-ring ability, it's surprising why more people don't make the argument for him being the best performer. Why is this? Why is it that someone who was such a great worker and was so beloved by millions of people isn't spoken of in the same light as Shawn Michaels when discussing who is the all-time greatest?
The answer is "because WWE says so." They dictate the way a lot of people feel about past legends and who the best is. Not saying you specifically since you're probably a diehard Shawn Michaels fan, but in general. How many times have you heard WWE ring home the point that HBK is the best performer EVAR and that Ric Flair is the biggest legend or whatever else? Now how many times have you heard them give Savage the same props? It's because Shawn Michaels was one of their current stars up until WrestleMania 26, whereas WWE likes to pretend that Macho Man more or less didn't ever exist. Urban legend says it's because he fucked a 15 year old Stephanie McMahon, but who knows? The point is... if the way WWE presented stuff was different, then the general outlook by the fans would be a little different too. What was the biggest and most popular wrestling stable of all-time that drew the most money in the allotted time of their existence? The nWo. But nowadays, does the casual fan give a flying fuck about the nWo? Probably not. They know about DX's legacy, though.
So my point is that I really don't care who "most people" think is the best performer. Most of it is manipulated anyway.
Good debate though.
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