qbee
Proud Member
The Chronicles of a Modern-Day Mozartian - Joe Vogel Interview Aug 23, 2011
http://www.moderndaymozartian.com/2011/08/joe-vogel-man-in-music.html?spref=tw
Since I began writing about the relationship between Wolfgang Mozart and Michael Jackson in the summer of 2009, I’ve been so fortunate as to encounter many readers who were inspired by my biographical and artistic comparisons, but I was not so fortunate as to meet anyone else so dedicated and passionate about the pursuit of this particular subject. Despite the insurgence of popularity following his death, it seemed as though Michael Jackson was still not on the radar of the musicological world generally. I felt isolated, but not uninspired. Afterall, it was more than gratifying to annex the artists who have long ruled my universe, bringing forth a fresh examination to establish their complimentary relationship.
Joe Vogel is an accomplished author and musicologist who I recently discovered through the announcement of his upcoming book, Man in the Music: The Creative Life and Work of Michael Jackson (in bookstores on November 1, 2011). He is currently one of the only individuals providing recognition to Michael Jackson’s oeuvre through serious study and resulting exclusives. He balances academia by writing about popular music and culture for The Huffington Post and PopMatters, making him ace in my book. And when I read that Mozart was named amongst his favorite composers, I knew I had to approach him for commentary on this subject. And much to my excitement, he accepted.
Thank you, Joe.
With Gratitude, Sherry
Man in the Music
Sherry: It’s truly a pleasure to meet you and to have the opportunity to share this dialogue with others in hopes of advancing the study, understanding and recognition of this very deserving topic. Congratulations on your upcoming release! Does this work address Michael’s classical preferences or influences in any manner?
Joe: Thank you very much, Sherry. It’s my pleasure. I do discuss some of his classical interests in the book. Michael began listening to classical composers at a very young age and his love for it continued throughout his life. He tended to be drawn to work with strong melodies and a vibrant or dramatic emotional quality. He often liked pieces that were attached to or evoked some kind of visual representation. Most of his favorite modern composers (Copland, Bernstein, Barry, John Williams) did films scores, ballets or musicals. His all-time favorites were probably Debussy, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, and Mozart.
A Corresponding Virtuosity
Sherry: You mentioned that you enjoyed reading some of my entries. Did you learn anything new from Michael and Mozart: A Corresponding Virtuosity?
Joe: You drew out some wonderful parallels. I just recently finished a piece on Michael’s Dangerous album, which was a real artistic turning point for Michael, so I enjoyed the parts where you talked about their shared desire for total creative freedom. It’s not an easy thing to follow your creative vision when there are so many pressures (commercial, corporate, family, conventions, fads, etc.) that seek to box you in. Not to mention the negative response from critics. Your quote from a Leipzig publisher about Mozart—"Write in a more popular style, or I can neither print nor pay for anything of yours!"—was a sentiment often leveled at Michael.
Music, Drama and Ideas
Sherry: In a reflective entry I published two summers ago, The M Icon: My Story, I described Michael Jackson: “He was a significant part of my early artistic life, instilling in my childhood compass the righteous marriage of music, drama and ideas. He redefined the popular music genre with the deliverance of autobiographical sentiment, sophistication and intelligent craftsmanship, adding new dimensions of depth and creativity.”
Music, drama and ideas. The same is true of Wolfgang Mozart, whom I also came to adore for the same reasons. With the conceptualization of works that challenged the status quo such as Mozart’s “Figaro” and Michael’s “Black or White,” they were musical protagonists, shouldering a great weight of social ideology through the performance art of their time, delivering grand fantasy and escapism in the same flourish.
The extensive study you’ve undertaken for Michael’s “Earth Song” reveals a rich tapestry of musical genres, social and historical references. I wholeheartedly agree that no other artist could ever embody the plight of our planet as well as Michael did with this work. Is it any coincidence that its creation began in Vienna, where Mozart composed the immortal anthem of “Figaro?” When I watched the trailer for your study on “Earth Song” and heard Lacrimosa from Mozart’s Requiem, I knew you understood.
So, is this the ultimate common denominator? Is this why they are so profoundly beloved, because they spoke directly to their audience, in advocacy of their audience, and in cathartic escape for their audience?
Joe: You’ve captured it eloquently. People seek many things in art and music, but what makes an artist like Michael Jackson (and Mozart) so resonant for me is its soul. There is a component to their work that is intensely pleasurable and that is important; but whatever the emotion, whether absolute despair or transcendence or some strange combination, they allow you to feel alive and in tune with what Emerson calls the “Over-soul.” You hear the music and suddenly have that feeling, Yes! Yes! This is the way it is! It often captures something so deep and profound it can’t be expressed in words. But the really beautiful thing is when you can identify some of those connections and see, as you put it, the “rich tapestry.”
Nature and Nurture
Sherry: Mozart learned how to read and articulate musical notation at a very early stage in his childhood, but prior to gaining this knowledge, it was clear that he was naturally gifted. Michael displayed precociousness at the same tender age, but unlike Mozart, he never learned how to read music. He later stated in interviews that he felt it wasn’t necessary. I’m not suggesting that his music lacked in anyway because he didn’t receive this particular educative element, but I wonder how his music and artistry would have been different had he achieved fluency, particularly in regards to incorporating classical sentiment.
Could he have possibly been more influenced by masters like Mozart if he knew the art of composition? Instead of using an excerpt from Beethoven’s 9th Symphony to preface “Will You Be There” and interweaving synthesized strings with melodic contour, could he have composed original material himself? Speaking of quoting the masters, I’m just curious as to which of Michael’s songs would you preface with a Mozart work? Which work and why?
Joe: This is an interesting question. On the one hand, you may be right that being able to read and write music may have opened up certain possibilities and made him more independent. On the other hand, Michael really enjoyed working collaboratively. He liked to test out different creative partners to see what kind of chemistry existed or what kind of unexpected synthesis might occur. Many of his closest partners (Quincy Jones, Brad Buxer, etc.) were classically trained. And he was very good at communicating what he was hearing in his head.
As for a song that might be prefaced with a work by Mozart, maybe something like “Fantasia in D Minor” before “Scared of the Moon.”
Classical Sentiment
Sherry: When I discovered that Michael was composing an album of classical music with Emmy award-winning composer David Michael Frank at the time of his death, another dimension was unveiled. It seemed almost like I received permission to truly embrace his relationship to the genre and to Mozart from this point. Was the news of this album’s existence at all surprising to you?
Maestro Frank said that Michael’s music was similar to the sweeping strings of John Barry. He was orchestrating these works for Michael, so again the question arises: how would nurture (education) have modified his artistry? Given the film score reference, it would seem likely that Michael’s vision was more Romantic in style than Classical, especially since Debussy and Tchaikovsky were two of his favorite composers. What do you anticipate to be the nature of this album? Do you think this music will remain in the vault? Or will it be finished and released?
Joe: Well, I knew that Michael had worked on classical and jazz pieces through the years, so it wasn’t a total surprise. But it was fascinating to hear that even in the midst of his high-stakes comeback and all the pressures of a new pop album and tour, he still wanted to do music for the sake of music
Of all of Michael’s unreleased material, this is the work that I’d like to see released the most. It would be a great showcase of Michael Jackson’s artistic ability and range. From what I understand it is not on the priority list at the moment, but I really do hope that David will get the green light from the Estate at some point and complete it for Michael.
Posthumous Work and Enduring Legacy
Sherry: Mozart is the only musician in history to enjoy uninterrupted success since his lifetime. He has been dead since December 5, 1791 and his works are played on heavy rotation around the world in 2011. He left a bounteous catalog to fulfill humanity’s insatiable appetite. I’m certainly not alone in the opinion that Michael Jackson also left us with enough music for generations upon generations. So, why was it necessary to release the “Michael” album full of unauthenticated works just one year after his death?
Mozart died before completing the famous Requiem mass and this unfinished work was a quagmire shrouded in mystery. It was completed by many mediocre composers, following Mozart’s sketches, yet it was passed off as his work. Sadly, the story as well as the mass itself has become legend which has transpired into the idea of legacy. A 19th Century musicologist would say quite confidently that the Requiem was Mozart’s legacy, but nothing could be farther from the truth. And in the same way with Michael, would he have wanted us to see his tour footage? “This Is It” and “Michael” all other posthumous works do not represent his legacy.
They were perfectionists, lest we forget, who crafted their art so meticulously and lovingly. Mozart hid manuscripts under his bed. He was paranoid and took great pains to ensure that his music was kept from prying eyes until he was ready to release it. Michael was the same way. When the unfinished song “Hold My Hand” was leaked in 2008, Michael was devastated. Yet, it was released in the “Michael” album. I recall the Boston Herald's review when it was released: "'Michael' is filled with sequencing mistakes, rough takes and off vocals. Surrounding weak vocals that Jackson would have NEVER let stand..." And from Entertainment Weekly: "It can be hard to listen and not wonder what he would have done differently — or if he would have wanted us to hear it at all."
In both cases, consumerism, the artist as product, was placed before the honor and integrity of the artists themselves, despite being two of the world’s greatest musical icons. It seems that nothing is off limits. How do you think the posthumous cycle will continue? What defines their legacies?
Joe: There is no question that artists are often treated as products, and exploitation is often rampant following a great artist’s death. Joe Jackson was treating his son like a product just days after he died. There are times when the exploitation is truly sickening.
That being said, I personally have no problem with unfinished material being released. Once a great artist dies, there is naturally an enormous amount of interest in what they left behind. I don’t believe it harms an artist’s legacy to release something like “This Is It,” where you get a very raw, authentic glimpse into how he operated. Now, obviously under ideal circumstances Michael would have been able to perform the actual show. But under the circumstances, I thought the film was cathartic for most fans and illuminating for many non-fans who didn’t realize how involved Michael was in all aspects of his work, what a perfectionist he was, and how spectacular these concerts were going to be.
The album, Michael, is a bit different, because you have people trying to complete Michael’s creative vision, and in some cases, making bad decisions. And then, of course, you have the Cascio tracks, which were accompanied by all kinds of uncertainty and controversy. But still, there are some very nice tracks on the album, and I’m not sure with a historical figure like Michael (or Mozart) you would just want to let music gather dust. People are smart enough, for the most part, to realize there is a big difference between a posthumous album and an album that the artist sees through from start to finish. So all it really can be from now on is fragments, pieces of an unfinished puzzle. But I’d personally like the public to hear and see many of those pieces. There is some still phenomenal material Michael left behind that has yet to be released. I think the key is transparency. If a demo is “completed” or embellished by a collaborator, release the demo as well, so the listener can compare the two.
http://www.moderndaymozartian.com/2011/08/joe-vogel-man-in-music.html?spref=tw
Since I began writing about the relationship between Wolfgang Mozart and Michael Jackson in the summer of 2009, I’ve been so fortunate as to encounter many readers who were inspired by my biographical and artistic comparisons, but I was not so fortunate as to meet anyone else so dedicated and passionate about the pursuit of this particular subject. Despite the insurgence of popularity following his death, it seemed as though Michael Jackson was still not on the radar of the musicological world generally. I felt isolated, but not uninspired. Afterall, it was more than gratifying to annex the artists who have long ruled my universe, bringing forth a fresh examination to establish their complimentary relationship.
Joe Vogel is an accomplished author and musicologist who I recently discovered through the announcement of his upcoming book, Man in the Music: The Creative Life and Work of Michael Jackson (in bookstores on November 1, 2011). He is currently one of the only individuals providing recognition to Michael Jackson’s oeuvre through serious study and resulting exclusives. He balances academia by writing about popular music and culture for The Huffington Post and PopMatters, making him ace in my book. And when I read that Mozart was named amongst his favorite composers, I knew I had to approach him for commentary on this subject. And much to my excitement, he accepted.
Thank you, Joe.
With Gratitude, Sherry
Man in the Music
Sherry: It’s truly a pleasure to meet you and to have the opportunity to share this dialogue with others in hopes of advancing the study, understanding and recognition of this very deserving topic. Congratulations on your upcoming release! Does this work address Michael’s classical preferences or influences in any manner?
Joe: Thank you very much, Sherry. It’s my pleasure. I do discuss some of his classical interests in the book. Michael began listening to classical composers at a very young age and his love for it continued throughout his life. He tended to be drawn to work with strong melodies and a vibrant or dramatic emotional quality. He often liked pieces that were attached to or evoked some kind of visual representation. Most of his favorite modern composers (Copland, Bernstein, Barry, John Williams) did films scores, ballets or musicals. His all-time favorites were probably Debussy, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, and Mozart.
A Corresponding Virtuosity
Sherry: You mentioned that you enjoyed reading some of my entries. Did you learn anything new from Michael and Mozart: A Corresponding Virtuosity?
Joe: You drew out some wonderful parallels. I just recently finished a piece on Michael’s Dangerous album, which was a real artistic turning point for Michael, so I enjoyed the parts where you talked about their shared desire for total creative freedom. It’s not an easy thing to follow your creative vision when there are so many pressures (commercial, corporate, family, conventions, fads, etc.) that seek to box you in. Not to mention the negative response from critics. Your quote from a Leipzig publisher about Mozart—"Write in a more popular style, or I can neither print nor pay for anything of yours!"—was a sentiment often leveled at Michael.
Music, Drama and Ideas
Sherry: In a reflective entry I published two summers ago, The M Icon: My Story, I described Michael Jackson: “He was a significant part of my early artistic life, instilling in my childhood compass the righteous marriage of music, drama and ideas. He redefined the popular music genre with the deliverance of autobiographical sentiment, sophistication and intelligent craftsmanship, adding new dimensions of depth and creativity.”
Music, drama and ideas. The same is true of Wolfgang Mozart, whom I also came to adore for the same reasons. With the conceptualization of works that challenged the status quo such as Mozart’s “Figaro” and Michael’s “Black or White,” they were musical protagonists, shouldering a great weight of social ideology through the performance art of their time, delivering grand fantasy and escapism in the same flourish.
The extensive study you’ve undertaken for Michael’s “Earth Song” reveals a rich tapestry of musical genres, social and historical references. I wholeheartedly agree that no other artist could ever embody the plight of our planet as well as Michael did with this work. Is it any coincidence that its creation began in Vienna, where Mozart composed the immortal anthem of “Figaro?” When I watched the trailer for your study on “Earth Song” and heard Lacrimosa from Mozart’s Requiem, I knew you understood.
So, is this the ultimate common denominator? Is this why they are so profoundly beloved, because they spoke directly to their audience, in advocacy of their audience, and in cathartic escape for their audience?
Joe: You’ve captured it eloquently. People seek many things in art and music, but what makes an artist like Michael Jackson (and Mozart) so resonant for me is its soul. There is a component to their work that is intensely pleasurable and that is important; but whatever the emotion, whether absolute despair or transcendence or some strange combination, they allow you to feel alive and in tune with what Emerson calls the “Over-soul.” You hear the music and suddenly have that feeling, Yes! Yes! This is the way it is! It often captures something so deep and profound it can’t be expressed in words. But the really beautiful thing is when you can identify some of those connections and see, as you put it, the “rich tapestry.”
Nature and Nurture
Sherry: Mozart learned how to read and articulate musical notation at a very early stage in his childhood, but prior to gaining this knowledge, it was clear that he was naturally gifted. Michael displayed precociousness at the same tender age, but unlike Mozart, he never learned how to read music. He later stated in interviews that he felt it wasn’t necessary. I’m not suggesting that his music lacked in anyway because he didn’t receive this particular educative element, but I wonder how his music and artistry would have been different had he achieved fluency, particularly in regards to incorporating classical sentiment.
Could he have possibly been more influenced by masters like Mozart if he knew the art of composition? Instead of using an excerpt from Beethoven’s 9th Symphony to preface “Will You Be There” and interweaving synthesized strings with melodic contour, could he have composed original material himself? Speaking of quoting the masters, I’m just curious as to which of Michael’s songs would you preface with a Mozart work? Which work and why?
Joe: This is an interesting question. On the one hand, you may be right that being able to read and write music may have opened up certain possibilities and made him more independent. On the other hand, Michael really enjoyed working collaboratively. He liked to test out different creative partners to see what kind of chemistry existed or what kind of unexpected synthesis might occur. Many of his closest partners (Quincy Jones, Brad Buxer, etc.) were classically trained. And he was very good at communicating what he was hearing in his head.
As for a song that might be prefaced with a work by Mozart, maybe something like “Fantasia in D Minor” before “Scared of the Moon.”
Classical Sentiment
Sherry: When I discovered that Michael was composing an album of classical music with Emmy award-winning composer David Michael Frank at the time of his death, another dimension was unveiled. It seemed almost like I received permission to truly embrace his relationship to the genre and to Mozart from this point. Was the news of this album’s existence at all surprising to you?
Maestro Frank said that Michael’s music was similar to the sweeping strings of John Barry. He was orchestrating these works for Michael, so again the question arises: how would nurture (education) have modified his artistry? Given the film score reference, it would seem likely that Michael’s vision was more Romantic in style than Classical, especially since Debussy and Tchaikovsky were two of his favorite composers. What do you anticipate to be the nature of this album? Do you think this music will remain in the vault? Or will it be finished and released?
Joe: Well, I knew that Michael had worked on classical and jazz pieces through the years, so it wasn’t a total surprise. But it was fascinating to hear that even in the midst of his high-stakes comeback and all the pressures of a new pop album and tour, he still wanted to do music for the sake of music
Of all of Michael’s unreleased material, this is the work that I’d like to see released the most. It would be a great showcase of Michael Jackson’s artistic ability and range. From what I understand it is not on the priority list at the moment, but I really do hope that David will get the green light from the Estate at some point and complete it for Michael.
Posthumous Work and Enduring Legacy
Sherry: Mozart is the only musician in history to enjoy uninterrupted success since his lifetime. He has been dead since December 5, 1791 and his works are played on heavy rotation around the world in 2011. He left a bounteous catalog to fulfill humanity’s insatiable appetite. I’m certainly not alone in the opinion that Michael Jackson also left us with enough music for generations upon generations. So, why was it necessary to release the “Michael” album full of unauthenticated works just one year after his death?
Mozart died before completing the famous Requiem mass and this unfinished work was a quagmire shrouded in mystery. It was completed by many mediocre composers, following Mozart’s sketches, yet it was passed off as his work. Sadly, the story as well as the mass itself has become legend which has transpired into the idea of legacy. A 19th Century musicologist would say quite confidently that the Requiem was Mozart’s legacy, but nothing could be farther from the truth. And in the same way with Michael, would he have wanted us to see his tour footage? “This Is It” and “Michael” all other posthumous works do not represent his legacy.
They were perfectionists, lest we forget, who crafted their art so meticulously and lovingly. Mozart hid manuscripts under his bed. He was paranoid and took great pains to ensure that his music was kept from prying eyes until he was ready to release it. Michael was the same way. When the unfinished song “Hold My Hand” was leaked in 2008, Michael was devastated. Yet, it was released in the “Michael” album. I recall the Boston Herald's review when it was released: "'Michael' is filled with sequencing mistakes, rough takes and off vocals. Surrounding weak vocals that Jackson would have NEVER let stand..." And from Entertainment Weekly: "It can be hard to listen and not wonder what he would have done differently — or if he would have wanted us to hear it at all."
In both cases, consumerism, the artist as product, was placed before the honor and integrity of the artists themselves, despite being two of the world’s greatest musical icons. It seems that nothing is off limits. How do you think the posthumous cycle will continue? What defines their legacies?
Joe: There is no question that artists are often treated as products, and exploitation is often rampant following a great artist’s death. Joe Jackson was treating his son like a product just days after he died. There are times when the exploitation is truly sickening.
That being said, I personally have no problem with unfinished material being released. Once a great artist dies, there is naturally an enormous amount of interest in what they left behind. I don’t believe it harms an artist’s legacy to release something like “This Is It,” where you get a very raw, authentic glimpse into how he operated. Now, obviously under ideal circumstances Michael would have been able to perform the actual show. But under the circumstances, I thought the film was cathartic for most fans and illuminating for many non-fans who didn’t realize how involved Michael was in all aspects of his work, what a perfectionist he was, and how spectacular these concerts were going to be.
The album, Michael, is a bit different, because you have people trying to complete Michael’s creative vision, and in some cases, making bad decisions. And then, of course, you have the Cascio tracks, which were accompanied by all kinds of uncertainty and controversy. But still, there are some very nice tracks on the album, and I’m not sure with a historical figure like Michael (or Mozart) you would just want to let music gather dust. People are smart enough, for the most part, to realize there is a big difference between a posthumous album and an album that the artist sees through from start to finish. So all it really can be from now on is fragments, pieces of an unfinished puzzle. But I’d personally like the public to hear and see many of those pieces. There is some still phenomenal material Michael left behind that has yet to be released. I think the key is transparency. If a demo is “completed” or embellished by a collaborator, release the demo as well, so the listener can compare the two.
