Man Behind The Throne- Vincent Patterson-Documentation

[Annita]

http://music.broadwayworld.com/article/Vincent-Patterson-Documentary-Preview-20130401

Vincent Patterson Documentary Preview

Monday, Apr, 1, 2013; 4:43 PM; - by Pat Cerasaro

CBC recently presented a documentary showcasing notable choreographer Vincent Patterson, titled [lexicon]The Man[/lexicon] BEHIND THE THRONE, and clips from the tribute are now available online.
Besides his celebrated and iconic work for Michael Jackson and Madonna, Patterson also created choreography for Hal Prince's original production of KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN on Broadway.
Other theatrically-related credits include choreography for the Mike Nichols films THE BIRDCAGE and CLOSER, in addition to Alan Parker's feature film adaptation of EVITA and Lars von Trier's DANCER IN THE DARK.
Also onstage, Patterson directed the first original Berlin production of CABARET in 2004.
The entire show will be available to view shortly, according to the website, following a March 20 airing in Canada.
View the trailer for [lexicon]The Man[/lexicon] BEHIND THE THRONE below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7h9X9xa9VYs

 

[HIStory]

Looks interesting. I like Vincent. He seemed to have genuinely loved Michael.

ETA: Does he imply at 13:28 that he invented the crotch grab when they did Black or White? How, when Michael used to grab his crotch way before Black or White?

How many crotch grabs are there in Bad? (It was even made fun of in the Moonwalker movie.)

Like I said I like Vincent, because he seems like he had a genuine love for Michael, but I really dislike it when people try to imply that they invented a move that Michael did, when it's clearly not true.

 

[morinen]

Like I said I like Vincent, because he seems like he had a genuine love for Michael, but I really dislike it when people try to imply that they invented a move that Michael did, when it's clearly not true.

H? doesn't imply he invented it, he says he accidentally did a similar movement during a rehearsal and Michael spotted it and said "Hey, let's create a move!" So it sounds like Michael invented it. And I'm pretty sure it was before "Bad" (Vincent and MJ worked since 1983), and he just remembered it in connection to "BoW" because it's where it was most controversial. But the move really became famous after "Bad", so the exchange he describes unlikely happened later than '86.

 

[HIStory]

H? doesn't imply he invented it, he says he accidentally did a similar movement during a rehearsal and Michael spotted it and said "Hey, let's create a move!" So it sounds like Michael invented it. And I'm pretty sure it was before "Bad" (Vincent and MJ worked since 1983), and he just remembered it in connection to "BoW" because it's where it was most controversial. But the move really became famous after "Bad", so the exchange he describes unlikely happened later than '86.

Well, he says what he says in that video and he says it was during the making of the BoW panther dance and the implication does seem to be that he invented it - actually someone even commented on YT (wasn't it you? - she's called "morinengirl"): "Great piece, thanks! So the famous crotch grab was? Vincent's invention, hehe".


Michael did the crotch thing already at Motown 25 - even if he did not fully grab himself there yet (him being still a Jehova's Witness) - but IMO it's clear then the grab evolved from that move. And although Vincent appeared in Beat It as a dancer, I don't think he started to work for Michael as a choreographer until the Bad era (Smooth Criminal, TWYMMF). The album's first video (Bad) already had the full grab and that video was not choreographed by Vincent.

 

[morinen]

Well, he says what he says in that video and it's not what you say here. The implication does seem to be that he invented it - actually someone even commented on YT (wasn't it you? - she's called "morinengirl"): "Great piece, thanks! So the famous crotch grab was? Vincent's invention, hehe".

Yes, it was me. It was a joke. He doesn't boast about it or make it sound like a big thing, he just tells the story how the move was born. And if you seriously ask me who invented it, based on Vincent's story, I say it was Michael, because if he didn't single it out, it would never have been a move.

It really bothers me how quick fans are to accuse people around Michael in lying. One small mistake - and you're condemned as a liar. And then fans remember it for years: "Remember, in 2004 he lied about such and such? He wanted to seem important!" People are human: they confuse dates, they forget. This happened twenty freaking years ago, during which he rehearsed with Michael for years, in the same studios, same settings. It's easy to mistake one occasion for the other, cut the man some slack.

No, in fans' eyes only Michael always tells the truth and everyone else is a liar.

 

[morinen]

Michael did the crotch thing already at Motown 25 - even if he did not fully grab himself there yet (him being still a Jehova's Witness) - but IMO it's clear then the grab evolved from that move. And although Vincent appeared in Beat It as a dancer, I don't think he started to work for Michael as a choreographer until the Bad era (Smooth Criminal TWYMMF).

"Billie Jean" move is a different move, imo. It's kind of around the same area, but his hand is on the waist. He never made it a crotch grab and I think it wasn't supposed to be perceived like one.

 

[HIStory]

"Billie Jean" move is a different move, imo. It's kind of around the same area, but his hand is on the waist. He never made it a crotch grab and I think it wasn't supposed to be perceived like one.

I didn't say it's the same, but IMO it clearly evolved from that. In 1984 Michael was still a JW so he could not fully grab himself. By Bad era he quit the church and so the full grabs started.

 

[morinen]

By the way, Vincent would be a good person to do a forum Q&A with. And this would give us an opportunity to clear things up.

 

[morinen]

I didn't say it's the same, but IMO it clearly evolved from that. In 1984 Michael was still a JW so he could not fully grab himself. By Bad era he quit the church and so the full grabs started.

Maybe. But the grab first appeared in "Bad", and according to Karent Faye, (if I remember right) he officially quit the church during "Smooth Criminal" filming which was later. So I'm not sure if the two events are connected. Unless KF confuses dates too.

 

[HIStory]

Yes, it was me. It was a joke. He doesn't boast about it or make it sound like a big thing, he just tells the story how the move was born. And if you seriously ask me who invented it, based on Vincent's story, I say it was Michael, because if he didn't single it out, it would never have been a move.

It really bothers me how quick fans are to accuse people around Michael in lying. One small mistake - and you're condemned as a liar. And then fans remember it for years: "Remember, in 2004 he lied about such and such? He wanted to seem important!" People are human: they confuse dates, they forget. This happened twenty freaking years ago, during which he rehearsed with Michael for years, in the same studios, same settings. It's easy to mistake one occasion for the other, cut the man some slack.

No, in fans' eyes only Michael always tells the truth and everyone else is a liar.

As I said I pretty much like Vincent, so it's not like I watched the video looking to find something wrong in it. But it's clearly not true that the crotch grab was invented for Black or White - I think we can at least agree about that. Whether it was a mistake by Vincent or a lie - only he knows. But I won't feel bad about pointing out something that is obviously not true.

 

[HIStory]

Maybe. But the grab first appeared in "Bad", and according to Karent Faye, (if I remember right) he officially quit the church during "Smooth Criminal" filming which was later. So I'm not sure if the two events are connected. Unless KF confuses dates too.

Well, maybe it has nothing to do with his religion then. But it's true he became more daring in his moves as he grew older. So during Bad era he was more daring than during Thriller.

 

[morinen]

I rewatched both " Bad" and "Black or White", and the move actually looks quite different in the two. It's crotch grab in both cases, but it's presented differently. So now that I think of it, I suppose Vincent was asked about "BoW" and he refers here specifically to the move Michael does in "BoW". The move is not just where your hand is, it involves the whole body.

vs.

(and I feel really silly examining crotch grab like this )

It sounds a lot more plausible to me, especially from a choreographer who doesn't look at moves solely in terms of body parts involved.
I just don't see why Vincent would want to make up something like that. He obviously loves Michael and he never tried to attribute Michael's talent to himself.

 

[HIStory]

The best would really be to ask him about what he meant if there will be a Q&A with him.

 

[SoCav]

He started really emphasizing and incorporating the crotch grab into his moveset in '87, but he was already grabbing his crotch during the Triumph and Victory tours. Not sure what Paterson is referring to.

Thanks for the link by the way. The Smooth Criminal rehearsal footage is great to see. That moment where Paterson and MJ are doing the same moves at the same time is a great example of the amount of natural flair and coolness MJ added to the choreography.

 

[jamba]

Michael did the crotch thing already at Motown 25 - even if he did not fully grab himself there yet (him being still a Jehova's Witness) - but IMO it's clear then the grab evolved from that move.

I agree, respect77, re Motown 25--the evolution is there--the hand is awfully close to his crotch when he does the hip thrusts during BJ--it's just a matter of inches until the full crotch grab we know and love emerges in "Bad."

 

[jamba]

"Billie Jean" move is a different move, imo. It's kind of around the same area, but his hand is on the waist. He never made it a crotch grab and I think it wasn't supposed to be perceived like one.

well-if you look, his hand is not on his waist--it's much lower--definitely in the hip/groin area--and Michael had such large hands so, just a little further, and there you are!! How do you know how it was "supposed to be perceived"? I perceive it as a nascent crotch grab--just my opinion (no offense intended).

 

[jamba]

I didn't say it's the same, but IMO it clearly evolved from that. In 1984 Michael was still a JW so he could not fully grab himself. By Bad era he quit the church and so the full grabs started.

Absolutely!!

 

[jamba]

Supposedly he quit JW officially in 87.

 

[SoCav]

An example from the Victory Tour at the 2 minute mark:

 

[ChrisC]

I have to agree, extremely tiresome all these people taking credit for Michael's work. Bad 25 was a huge bugbear for me in that sense.

Vincent seems like a lovely man though.

 

[Ashtanga]

 

[Thoth]

"Billie Jean" move is a different move, imo. It's kind of around the same area, but his hand is on the waist. He never made it a crotch grab and I think it wasn't supposed to be perceived like one.

True. That Motown 25 performance (or any performance during that time, ex: Victory Tour) was focusing more on the pelvic thrust and he just put his hand around that area for dynamic effect lol. It wasn't perceived as a "crotch grab" neither did anyone comment on it the following day. Because believe me, if it was, the whole world would have been talking about it.

Like you said...according to Vince's story they kept improvising and experimenting until Michael himself came up with it. I personally think with the Gritty, tough image they were going for with "Bad" he probably believed that it was appropriate to PROMINENTLY use it in the short film. That's why it appeared at the time because if I clearly remember it isn't used in any of his other short films (D.D, TWYMMF) I don't include Speed Demon because that was shot later, during the tour when he started grabbing himself on stage a lot. Right?

 

[MJ*PP]

It sounds so funny when someone says "when he start grabbing himself" :lol: I couldnt stop laughing just now

 

[8701girl]

Now this thread is interesting LOL......:blush: ...*runs away*

 

[Virre]

Hm.. Did he really grab (as taking his whole package in his hand) ? Can´t believe I even wrote that.. Didn´t Stacy (the dancer) say in TII that she thinks it´s only the hand that is moving or something like that, to the male dancers, and not grab their whole package. Because when I see other artist doing that move in the crotch area, trying to do it like Michael, it only looks vulgar and it looks like they take everything in their hands.

And then Michael´s explanation to Oprah?

 

[MJ*PP]

^ :lol::lol:well, in TII that woman(forgat r name) said something along these lines:" and then grab it, Ive got nothing to grab" while teaching the dancers. But he's not uhm holding it, its just putting his hands down there as IF he is. Even when performing Dangerous for example, he doesnt grab it just 'covering' it.

 

[la_cienega]

Hm.. Did he really grab (as taking his whole package in his hand) ? Can´t believe I even wrote that.. Didn´t Stacy (the dancer) say in TII that she thinks it´s only the hand that is moving or something like that, to the male dancers, and not grab their whole package. Because when I see other artist doing that move in the crotch area, trying to do it like Michael, it only looks vulgar and it looks like they take everything in their hands.

And then Michael´s explanation to Oprah?

He grabs:

He started really emphasizing and incorporating the crotch grab into his moveset in '87, but he was already grabbing his crotch during the Triumph and Victory tours. Not sure what Paterson is referring to.

Thanks for the link by the way. The Smooth Criminal rehearsal footage is great to see. That moment where Paterson and MJ are doing the same moves at the same time is a great example of the amount of natural flair and coolness MJ added to the choreography.

Yeah, he places his hand over his crotch a few times on the Triumph tour, though with the footage we have, I haven't seen a full grab, with Diana Ross here he goes for the same area:

But in Victory he goes for it:

I don't remember anyone really saying anything about it at the time (hilarious because he had the two JW elders watching all his shows too LOL), it only became infamous with the Bad video.

I'm not saying Vincent's a liar, I don't think he is, I'm guessing he's speaking about the specific dance sequence in BoW and maybe MJ hadn't thought to do that whole big crotch thing there for that.

People are always so quick to give credit to different people, and of course things get messed up as MJ was known for letting people think they were the first to show or teach him something when they weren't.

Anyway, it's nice to hear Vincent and the others speak about MJ.

 

[Virre]

Oh well, I guess we see "a grab" differently then. Maybe I thought "grab" was like "cupping" something. Or how to say. Because that look so fun when others take a hold on their things, like cupping it. Michael had "style" in everything he did, smooth.

 

[HIStory]

He grabs:

People are always so quick to give credit to different people, and of course things get messed up as MJ was known for letting people think they were the first to show or teach him something when they weren't.

Yeah, I think that easily could be the reason. Michael liked to act ignorant sometimes and as if a person showed him something new (when he didn't really) - I think to make people feel special.


Now, this thread about crotch grabbing history and technique is fun. I had some good laughs on this last page. LOL.

 

[dmehta]

Didn't realise until now that Vincent Patterson was the main guy in the Beat It video! Amazing how something like that can just pass you by...