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Joe wasn't the only Jackson father to abuse his children?

Kanye East

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I recently read that Joe's father, Samuel (who died in 1993 when Michael was 35) was also abusive to Joe and his siblings. Has anyone else heard about this? As far as I know, Michael had a good relationship with Samuel.

It also seems that Joe's great-grandfather, Jack/July Gayle, often claimed to be Native American, was actually the son of a black slave and her white owner, so that's another abusive father-son relationship in the family. It seems that Michael and all of his brothers were loving fathers (3T always said good things about Tito), so I'm glad to see they broke the cycle.
 
According to his ex-wife Margaret Maldonado, Jermaine also used the belt on their two kids. Siggy gave an interview where he said Jackie also used the belt on him and that it was a good thing, and Jackie confirmed it, smiling as he nodded. Randy was arrested for beating his wife while she was pregnant and later while she was holding their young daughter. I don't know about Tito, but he doesn't seem to be against physical punishment either judging by the way he spoke during interviews, like this one for example:

Interviewer: "These days, you're not even really allowed to whoop your kids like that, you could actually get arrested."
Tito: "Well you know what, these days that's why kids are walking around shooting and killing and stealing and beating and snatching purses and doing everything else they shouldn't be doing because there's no discipline. That's the way I see it, you know."

Marlon and Michael are the only two of the brothers who spoke against using physical punishment. So yeah, the cycle is hard to break...
 
It reminds me of this note Michael wrote saying ''Discipline with love, no violence ever'' and I totally agree. I studied human psychology and social work (not sure if the translation is good) and the ONLY THING that is positive from beating your kid is that they become obedient. But the load of negative impacts is not worth it at all. I've never heard about Joe's father but it's not surprising because, most of the time, it's a generational pattern. They say, it takes three generations (average) to break a bad pattern. I will never agree with those who say beating your kids is good. Never, never, never. The trauma generated is horrific and has a huge impact on a person's life. Proud of Marlon and Michael for speaking against this.
 
Moonie said:
It reminds me of this note Michael wrote saying ''Discipline with love, no violence ever'' and I totally agree. I studied human psychology and social work (not sure if the translation is good) and the ONLY THING that is positive from beating your kid is that they become obedient. But the load of negative impacts is not worth it at all. I've never heard about Joe's father but it's not surprising because, most of the time, it's a generational pattern. They say, it takes three generations (average) to break a bad pattern. I will never agree with those who say beating your kids is good. Never, never, never. The trauma generated is horrific and has a huge impact on a person's life. Proud of Marlon and Michael for speaking against this.
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They become obedient or...scared? It's quite different.
 
etoile 37 said:
Marlon and Michael are the only two of the brothers who spoke against using physical punishment. So yeah, the cycle is hard to break...
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Mike was always talking about living a "normal childhood". Well that involved getting spanked with a wooden board by teachers in school. And also getting bullied by the other kids, getting into fights, or them taking your money or your clothes if they were something in style. He seemed to think it was all about going to Disneyland & rollercoasters. When the Jackson family was in Gary Indiana, many of the kids in their neighborhood were in street gangs. That's why Papa Joe had them moving bricks and later practicing all the time.

What Tito says is kinda true. I see kids today cursing out their parents, fighting the teachers (and posting the videos of that on Youtube, TikTok, World Star Hip Hop, etc), harrassing elderly folks. They're bringing guns to school and shoot people. Teenage boys shoot or beat up girls who reject them. Some schools now have metal detectors and/or the kids are required to carry transparent backpacks. Others have uniforms, so kids won't wear gang colors to school. But some of the kids still wear the uniform sagging (pants pulled down with their underwear showing). A lot of children today have no respect for anybody.
 
DuranDuran said:
Mike was always talking about living a "normal childhood". Well that involved getting spanked with a wooden board by teachers in school. And also getting bullied by the other kids, getting into fights, or them taking your money or your clothes if they were something in style. He seemed to think it was all about going to Disneyland & rollercoasters. When the Jackson family was in Gary Indiana, many of the kids in their neighborhood were in street gangs.
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That is not a normal childhood either though. A common childhood in places like Gary, but not a "normal" childhood. I'm sure many of those people who grew up in tough places like Gary look back on their childhood with sadness like Michael did, because they all had a rough childhood. For people who grew up in a better neighborhood, yes, a childhood can be all about Disneyland and rollercoasters. But I don't think Michael was asking for that much. Just having a loving father would have meant so much to him. People often forget, but Katherine spanked Michael too, and yet he adored her, never felt afraid of her, never complained about being abused by her, because Michael can tell the difference between discipline and what his father was doing. There's no excuse to whip a child for missing a dance step, that's not discipline, that's how you treat a slave.

DuranDuran said:
What Tito says is kinda true. I see kids today cursing out their parents, fighting the teachers (and posting the videos of that on Youtube, TikTok, World Star Hip Hop, etc), harrassing elderly folks. They're bringing guns to school and shoot people. Teenage boys shoot or beat up girls who reject them. Some schools now have metal detectors and/or the kids are required to carry transparent backpacks. Others have uniforms, so kids won't wear gang colors to school. But some of the kids still wear the uniform sagging (pants pulled down with their underwear showing). A lot of children today have no respect for anybody.
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That's what happens when kids are raised in a bad or violent environment, it has nothing to do with getting spankings or not. I've never seen any of that where I live, kids never fought when I went to school, never disrespected the teachers, and that's because they were raised with love, not violence. Kids bring guns to school because their parents keep guns in the house and they grow up around guns, not because they didn't get spankings.
 
etoile 37 said:
That's what happens when kids are raised in a bad or violent environment, it has nothing to do with getting spankings or not. I've never seen any of that where I live, kids never fought when I went to school, never disrespected the teachers, and that's because they were raised with love, not violence. Kids bring guns to school because their parents keep guns in the house and they grow up around guns, not because they didn't get spankings.
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The entire United States must be a violent environment then. It doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood or area it is, there's mass shootings all the time, & not only in schools. It happens in churches, concerts, clubs, stores, malls, movie theaters, & so on. A church is supposed to be a peaceful place, but that doesn't mean that a person outside of it is. A lady even brought a gun into Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church and shot in it. Osteen is a famous TV preacher. But as such there was security there that quickly got to her. But most churches don't have security. The police in some places are violent themselves.
 
DuranDuran said:
The entire United States must be a violent environment then. It doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood or area it is, there's mass shootings all the time, & not only in schools. It happens in churches, concerts, clubs, stores, malls, movie theaters, & so on. A church is supposed to be a peaceful place, but that doesn't mean that a person outside of it is. A lady even brought a gun into Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church and shot in it. Osteen is a famous TV preacher. But as such there was security there that quickly got to her. But most churches don't have security. The police in some places are violent themselves.
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I don't live in the United States, so you know your country better than I do. I can only say, it's hard for children to learn how to be peaceful when all they've ever known is violence.
 
It's most people's idea that aggression is what makes people listen to you. It's not true; it just makes them listen faster.
 
In my opinion, the subject of physical discipline needs to be handled very carefully. It should not be done to the extreme, but the solution doesn't lie with ditching it entirely either. Kids need to learn that their actions have consequences, and some are so stubborn that merely talking to them just won't work. To me, the most essential part is never spanking your child when you're still angry with them, because that can easily escalate way too far. If you've had a disagreement or even an all-out screaming match, arrange for you both to cool down, and then issue the appropriate level of discipline. Too many parents now mistakenly believe that if you truly love your children, you will never place limits on them, especially if it causes them pain. But sometimes, that's the only way they can learn. We should never allow the selfish and evil among us to set the standard, but fearing what others think can also be equally destructive.
 
^^Some parents today want to be friends or buddies with their children and don't spank for that reason. I think that's where a lot of the rowdy children/teens come from, they don't think there's a difference between an adult and a child. So they fight or curse them out them like they do any any other kid. Social media & the internet is also probably a factor. In the old days there was no way to film a schoolyard fight and post it for thousands or even millions to see. The fights were soon forgotten, but today they can still be seen years later. Pretty say anything on the internet. As Mike Tyson said, the internet let people say things that they would not say to a person's face because they know they would get punched. People also don't know who they're talking to, both kids & adults lie about their ages online.

But the way the laws are set up now in many places in the USA, some of the parents that do want to discipline the old way can't. Because the children can call CPS and have their parents arrested (or have a social worker come to their home) for any kind of spanking, it doesn't have to be extreme abuse.
 
Everybody needs to get hit sometime in their life if talking or timeout doesn't work, little or grown.
 
I guess this is a good idea too. The man sitting on the couch is a US congressman, a person elected by the public. They're not an "inner city" street gang. Those are real guns, not toys.
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DuranDuran said:
So the children fighting adults & shooting people is better?
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How do you know that the parents of those children did not use physical punishment as a method of discipline? Nowhere do they say they were raised in a loving home so we don't know what their home life was like.

The man in the second video sums up the problem very well: "We need to keep the guns out of the hands of our young people. This is evidence today that these are the things that happen when we have access to weapons."

It's funny how Tito says that nowadays children are fighting because they're not getting spanked, yet he himself said that he and his brothers got into plenty of fights as children/teenagers. Not only that, but he said that Jermaine was the one starting the fights. I guess Joe wasn't hitting him hard enough... Meanwhile, the kids I grew up with who never got spanked never got into fights. I don't know how Tito came to the conclusion that spankings stop children from getting into fights when it didn't even work for him and his brothers.

When you hit a dog to train it, it either becomes fearful or aggressive. I don't know why people think it would be different for children. When you hit a kid, they either feel fear or anger, just the same feelings you would have if someone hit you now as an adult.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
They literally have nothing to do with each other and I don't even particularly rate whoopings as the worst thing you can do.
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Sure it does. I don't recall much of this kind of thing happening when teachers were allowed to paddle students. The bad kids also knew who the really nice teachers were or the ones who didn't paddle, were the ones who they could get away with stuff with. But did not try the same things with the mean teachers or the ones who would be quick to paddle. It's like a bully kid is more likely to pick on another one who is timid or smaller in size than them, than one who is going to fight him or her back.
 
In Germany where I live nobody hits their children (and nobody has any guns). Of course some people do it secretly, but I don't know any. It's against the law, authorities would take your children away if you spanked them. I have to say that I believe that is the only correct way of educating and I cannot stand any people who are violent against children. There are troubled kids, but they get consequences without any physical harm and it works.
Michael's suffering is proof enough for me, that hurting children is completely wrong. His brothers should know better.
 
DuranDuran said:
I don't recall much of this kind of thing happening when teachers were allowed to paddle students. The bad kids also knew who the really nice teachers were or the ones who didn't paddle, were the ones who they could get away with stuff with. But did not try the same things with the mean teachers or the ones who would be quick to paddle. It's like a bully kid is more likely to pick on another one who is timid or smaller in size than them, than one who is going to fight him or her back.
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Didn't sound that much better to me, according to Katherine's book:

KATHERINE: Shortly after we moved to Gary, we heard that a boy had been stabbed to death in a bathroom at Roosevelt High School, which was located just around the corner from us. From then on, we were haunted by the tales of Gary children going bad: fighting, taking drugs, getting girls pregnant.

TITO: I was walking from school for lunch one day. I had a dime in my pocket, which was like heaven -- bubble gum money. Anyway, this guy approached me and asked me to give him my lunch money. I told him that I didn’t have any money, that I was going home to eat lunch. “Then I’m gonna blow your brains out,” he said, pulling a gun on me and cocking it. I went into a nervous wreck. I ran screaming. He didn’t shoot.
KATHERINE: Joe happened to be home, so he took Tito back to Beckman Junior High after lunch and reported the incident. The boy was found; he had also committed a burglary at the school. While Joe and Tito were with the principal, he pulled open a drawer and showed them a collection of guns and knives. “This is what we got out of the lockers during a search,” he said. From 1967 on, I wouldn’t permit my older children to attend school on the last day of the year. That was the most dangerous day in Gary junior and senior highs, a day when grudges that had been held for months were settled -- usually violently. I’ll never forget watching one of the neighbor kids strut down the street on one of those last days, swinging a couple of chains.
“What are you doing with those chains?” I asked.
“If there’s gonna be a fight, I’m gonna have a good time, too,” he said.

This was back when spankings were the beloved method of punishment. Sounds better than today?

And from Joe's book:

When I was in 5th grade, we moved to a house in Durmott. In my class there was a guy who was jealous of me because all the prettiest girls flirted with me. He was called Samuel Washington, and before my arrival he was the most popular. It was very unpleasant to him that I got all the attention. Samuel was faster and stronger than me, and once after school he beat me up. I tried to protect myself, but I didn't stand any chance. When I came home, I was bleeding from my mouth, my eye was swollen and my nose was broken.
Mom was furious when she saw me. I thought that she would punish me now. That would be the last straw. But she only told me, "Joe, never let anybody scoff at you. You're a Jackson, and nobody dares to beat up a Jackson!"
I rose early in the morning and sharpened a long stick with my pocket knife. At school, Samuel constantly looked at me as though he wanted to jump on me again.
The bell rang and I went out. We had hardly left when he attacked me again. I protected myself with the pointed stick and it cut through Samuel's right cheek and came out on the other side. He tried to pull out the stick and when he failed, he started to scream as I had never heard in my life and ran home.
When I came back home, I immediately told my mom. "You should not have attacked him with such a sharp stick," she swore. She immediately thought that I would be in trouble and that Samuel's parents would certainly come to school.
The next day, the teacher called me up. I thought, she wants to beat me with that stupid paddle again, but she didn't say anything and instead sent me with a note to her friend who taught in the other class. I handed him the note and then he took out of a case a much bigger paddle and beat me up in front of the whole class so badly that my white shirt was painted red and blood formed a puddle on the floor.
 
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djlukesw said:
It's against the law, authorities would take your children away if you spanked them.
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And do what with them? It the US, they might put in the foster care system which is often worse. Either they'll age out without ever getting placed with foster parents, or they might get placed with people who only want the money and neglect them altogether. Some kids might runaway from that and live on the street, where anything can happen to them. Not that long ago, the state of Texas was locking kids up in cages that were migrating from Mexico. Many of these kids, including toddlers, were separated from their parents.
djlukesw said:
There are troubled kids, but they get consequences without any physical harm and it works.
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In the states, if they go to prison or juvenile hall, there's definitely physical harm. Either from the other inmates or the prison guards, and it's not spankings either.
etoile 37 said:
This was back when spankings were the beloved method of punishment. Sounds better than today?
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Kids fighting kids is not the same as a kid fighting a teacher or adult. You said the Jackson brothers fought each other. Did they ever try to fight Papa Joe or curse him out?
 
DuranDuran said:
And do what with them? It the US, they might put in the foster care system which is often worse. Either they'll age out without ever getting placed with foster parents, or they might get placed with people who only want the money and neglect them altogether. Some kids might runaway from that and live on the street, where anything can happen to them.
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I know some kids whose father went to jail for spanking them. They just stayed with their mother who didn't beat them and they were fine with her. However, some of them needed therapy as adults for their childhood trauma because of the spankings.

DuranDuran said:
Kids fighting kids is not the same as a kid fighting a teacher or adult. You said the Jackson brothers fought each other. Did they ever try to fight Papa Joe or curse him out?
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Michael threw a shoe at his head and tried to fight back with his fists.
 
etoile 37 said:
I know some kids whose father went to jail for spanking them. They just stayed with their mother who didn't beat them and they were fine with her. However, some of them needed therapy as adults for their childhood trauma because of the spankings.
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That's all well and good for your country, but that's not how the USA works. The people are different, especially with many in the heartland Bible Belt areas. They're the ones who are more likely to be pro-2nd Amendment, which is the right to bear arms. Guns aren't going anywhere, the majority of people won't allow that to happen. I think a lot more men here beat their wives or girlfriends than their children. Nothing much might not happen to the men, maybe a couple of nights in jail or a fine. But there's been some women who were put in jail because they had a miscarriage, which is considered murder or abortion in some states.
 
We know as children for example Michael and Janet didn't learn to respect Joe in their hearts. The abuse taught them to fear and secretly hate him.

I believe Michael did the work needed to heal much of his generational trauma and be an outstanding parent.
 
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