If You Had the Chance to Work with MJ As a Producer

analogue

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What would have you done?

I would have encouraged MJ to write most of the songs himself and i would have tried to make a 10-12 track album. An album that has about 10-12 solid tracks on it is better than a 15+ tracks with fillers

I know that MJ's the boss and he has final say but those are a few things i would suggest to him
 
Same as you.
And I would try to encourage him to work with less known musicians. A jam-session with Tito and Stevie could be a starting point to some great music too.
 
(1)I would tell him to write songs that he feels would get the most reaction from people. Dance Songs and Ballads.
*Songs from his heart* As always...
(2)I would encourage him to play an instrument on some songs that nobody ever seen him play in concerts.(An Instrument he can play easily besides percussion)
(3)Find players,Background Singers and sounds that he's use to using on his songs (yo make him sound fab.)
(4)If he wants my opinion,I'll be Honest and I wouldnot hold back what I think. If any changes in the song, We make them together so we both would be satisfide.
(I know he would me if he was my Producer)
(5) Mixdown everything with him.
(6)Cut most of the complete tracks down to how many can fit on 1 CD or a Compilation together.
(7)Have The Label Listen to tracks and Ask them to heavily promote it better than all the other artist in the Label.
(8) Throw a Launch Party..
(9) Do Videos.
(10) Give Michael a Hug on a Job well done. Oh Hell what am I Thinking ? I'll won't tell you what I was Thinking.It will spoil it fun....
(11) Do Concerts.
(12) Together we would win All Awards including Best Sound Track(Oscar)
I wish he was Still Alive......:(
 
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1. Go back to the basics. Stop following the trends. He's the King Of Pop, he should be setting them, not following them.

2. Create an album that flows and sounds as good as Dangerous did. IMO that is by far his best album.

3. videos- to promote the album & singles, videos need to be done.

4. Gotta tour- rather than have a butt load of dates back to back, pick a select few cities and stretch it out between performances, so he stays healthy and on his toes.

5. As a side project, do a special edition release of BOTDF- keep the 1st 5 tracks, replace the remixes with unreleased material from the HIStory album.
 
i would encourage him to make an album sort of like the Beatles Sgt. Peppers that tells a story. I would include an orchestra on some pieces and electric guitarists on others and overall have great variety while each song remains a part of the overall story.
Of course ask him to write the songs and continue to have mini movie type music videos
 
I'd throw some Synthesizers in there because i love Synthesizers
 
I would have loved to just sit down with him on the piano, myself on an acoustic guitar, and just write together that way. Of course, that wouldn't work for every single track, but a great deal of what we'd accomplish would start out that way. I'd track live drums, percussion, bass, guitars, even some live string and brass sections. As someone else said, I'd like to bring in Rod Temperton for keyboard tracks.

I'd generally want to try and capture the live feel that gave the early albums such energy, but keep the more modern edge to it. Maybe incorporate some straight live jamming in a song or two, with Michael adlibbing just like he does in concert. I'd try to stray from the more cliche sounds of the moment, like the particular drum samples and synthesizers that we hear so often.

I'd want the album to be shorter than some of the recent MJ albums. I know he liked to give the fans as many songs as he could at one time, but I feel like sometimes it's just too much. I like to listen to albums straight through, and with 15 or 16 songs it's just too much at a certain point. I'd encourage some longer songs as well, approaching maybe 7 minutes, as I feel Michael really shines in the long, dynamic pieces.

Coming from a Rock/Metal background, I'd encourage Michael to go in the direction of "Give In To Me" for a few songs, as I feel there's a lot that he can do in that style that was never fully realized. But most importantly I would want him to do what feels right for him. I love and respect him so much and it was my number one dream to work with him in a creative capacity. I can no longer follow that dream, but I'll continue to make him a part of everything I do in music.
 
Make more albums, do more concerts, and write most the material himself.
 
i'd leave him alone. he knew better. and i know better than to think anything else.

people tend to want to improve upon perfection. that's impossible.

and give advice to the successful. that's unnecessary.

and not want to pay attention to upstarts. that's deplorable.

there were already enough people trying to stir the MJ pot. they thought they knew better than the most successful artist of all time. the more successful he got, the more they thought they knew better, (even though it was his decisions that made him successful). that's senseless.
 
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i'd leave him alone. he knew better. and i know better than to think anything else.

It wouldn't hurt to give suggestions and critiques though. It's how we, as people, grown and learn. It's how we become better over time. Leaving someone completely alone like that is doing them a great disservice. I do agree with not going all up in there as if you think you know more than them. That's silly. Most people in here would have been too busy learning from him rather than vice versa.


I would have encouraged MJ to write most of the songs himself and i would have tried to make a 10-12 track album.

From how I understood it, MJ did pen many tracks though. While I, thoroughly, enjoy many of MJ's penned works, I also like having him sing songs from other writers as well. It gives great diversity to his albums and I enjoy having him give life to someone else's words. I also think of the many songwriters who would have found it an immense honor to have him sing on of their songs. You couldn't ask for anything better.

Could you imagine a world where MJ didn't sing Human Nature, Lady In My Life, Blame It On the Boogie, Man in the Mirror, Rock With You, and I Can't Help It? I, certainly, couldn't.

I find that the only people who really make a big deal out of who wrote what are music elitists and/or fanboys. Other than that, no one really cares. They just want a good song to listen to and enjoy, as do I. If MJ was smart enough to take out one of his weaker songs for a stronger one that someone else wrote then that only makes him a better artist in my eyes, because he puts quality over quantity and ego stroking. Also, it means that he is humble enough, as an artist, to recognize when something is just as good or, maybe, even better than his own.

This is in no way a diss to the many great artists out there who have penned a significant amount of their own works, it's just saying that was MJ's style and M.O. that I respected greatly. I just find it sad that some people can't and everyone has to do everything themselves, otherwise they aren't a 'true' musician. It just seems ridiculous.
 
It wouldn't hurt to give suggestions and critiques though. It's how we, as people, grown and learn. It's how we become better over time. Leaving someone completely alone like that is doing them a great disservice. I do agree with not going all up in there as if you think you know more than them. That's silly. Most people in here would have been too busy learning from him rather than vice versa.

too many people critiquing him did hurt him.

it does not do a disservice to leave alone someone who already has the talent within them.

those who need to grow and learn are those beginning. and those asking for help.

i could understand your point for someone who was not a wunderkind as MJ was. but he was. sometimes, exceptions have to be made, and certain things have to be acknowledged. it's nothing to do with ego. in fact, quite the opposite. it takes the bigger person to realize when to step back.

the only times when MJ should get help is if he asked for it. not if someone tried to force it on him.
 
too many people critiquing him did hurt him.

I'm talking about the art, not his life. Also a little constructive criticism is good for everyone. Example, saying "The seems a little weak, maybe it would be better if it this way it would be a little more effective" is MUCH better than going "That sucks! Go die in a closet."


i could understand your point for someone who was not a wunderkind as MJ was. but he was. sometimes, exceptions have to be made, and certain things have to be acknowledged. it's nothing to do with ego. in fact, quite the opposite. it takes the bigger person to realize when to step back.

Yeah, but if you feel strongly about something you should be able to express yourself as well. A good artist should be able to take criticism and utilize it well. Also, no one should feel that they should be quiet and just let whomever do whatever, especially when you , genuinely, feel that something is wrong or could be improved upon.


the only times when MJ should get help is if he asked for it. not if someone tried to force it on him.

Well no one should be forcing anything on anyone, but he said, himself, that he didn't mind the suggestions. It was still up to him whether or not to utilize it.
 
I'm talking about the art, not his life. Also a little constructive criticism is good for everyone. Example, saying "The seems a little weak, maybe it would be better if it this way it would be a little more effective" is MUCH better than going "That sucks! Go die in a closet."




Yeah, but if you feel strongly about something you should be able to express yourself as well. A good artist should be able to take criticism and utilize it well. Also, no one should feel that they should be quiet and just let whomever do whatever, especially when you , genuinely, feel that something is wrong or could be improved upon.




Well no one should be forcing anything on anyone, but he said, himself, that he didn't mind the suggestions. It was still up to him whether or not to utilize it.

now your post is the true meaning of paralysis by analysis.

sorry we have to agree to disagree. there just comes a time when there are certain artists that you shouldn't volunteer your info upon. Michael was that artist. no matter how strongly you feel about 'constructive criticism', this wasn't the place for it. people put their spin on 'constructive criticism' all the time. it's a sliding scale. and giving advice on how an artist should handle it, is unnecessary here, in the case of Michael. plain and simple. he was the genius. the fact that he might have asked for something is not the issue here. a lot of people took advantage of his mild manner. and i wasn't talking about his life. i was talking about the music. if you're not walking in his moccasins, it's not your place to say how he should handle 'constructive criticism.' the words 'constructive criticism' are as misused as the word 'love'.

in the case of Michael, i'm not pulling punches. this was the place to honor the musician, and put aside your strong need, based on how you might strongly feel about what you think is weaker than it should be, musically. there were plenty of 'professional critics' in Michael's time, who thought they were the authority on what is 'slighgtly weak' and could use 'improvement'. Michael had intuitive sonic ability. that is a very very rare gift. it's rarer than gold. to recognize such a thing is the honorable thing to do. it's the humble thing to do. it's the right thing to do. Michael was very gracious. and it's worth repeating. people took advantage of that. musically.

i think it's worth making the comparison here. if you have a drill seargent in the army, you don't question him. even if you feel strongly about something.

the gift is the gift in this instance. his intuitiveness shouldn't be questioned.

he is the most successful artist of all time. because he made the final decisions. some things you just don't question. and i have nothing to gain from this. i'd like to have his talent, but i don't. i'm just willing to recognize what is. i could be envious. cus it's not my talent. and feel the need to tell him what's what. but, instead, i think it's thing to do. to recognize.

and even then, with any songwriter...over analysis of a song..over fixing it...in reality, those have been the nature of the destruction of songs.

songwriting and producing are elusive arts. but most artists will tell you, if they are successful..overdoing 'improvements' in songwriting and producing, can kill a song.

so many times, Michael said that.

the reality is, if a person feels strongly to improve upon an artist who was the best selling...in reality, that is arrogance.

Robin Gibb said that Michael feared the idea of doing his latest tour, because of the overbearing criticism he knew he would receive. and i am talking musically. that was the trouble with this whole thing. and the crux of the tragic ending of the Michael Jackson saga. what was said about his life in general was just the additional horror.

what i think you're not recognizing is, that the more successful his craft was, the more people felt the need to criticize it. that's truly the pinnacle of never being satisfied. it was clear it would be a place of no escape for him. and people make the mistake of thinking that they can somehow control their 'little bit' of 'constructive criticism', when in reality, they wanted a blank cheque that they could sign, criticism wise. it's NEVER a little constructive criticism. there's no such thing. when people say that, the 'improvements' they feel the need to make, never end.

this really sheds light into this most unfortunate thing about the whole Michael Jackson saga. people see only in their universe, and think they're only adding a little constructive critique, and that's all MJ had to have. they don't see that in reality, they were piling onto mountains, and miles of criticism. and again, i'm just talking about the music.

in a better and perfect world, this stuff wouldn't happen. so, while i see now, the problem won't be solved..

we just have to agree to disagree.

you would think i would give this kind of vote of confidence to something about myself, in life. why would i want to step back and give it to somebody else?

but here is the right thing to do. recognize when somebody else is all that. if anything, it's good for your own self growth to give due props to another, other than yourself. in the end, as 'karma' would go...it could only benefit you in the future.

but in the end, i just have to recognize. and step back. there is that saying that goes, success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

in other words, if it's a volkswagen, i'll ignore it. but the better the car is, the more i feel i should put my stamp of improving it upon it.

if it's a mercedes benz, somehow i think i can improve upon it.

that's a bad attitude to have.

i just feel like this whole thing is about the Invincible album, which people spoke much criticism about. but Michael said, it's about the end of the story, not how it begins.

people are used to the idea of how Thriller got all the fanfare, and that that is the machinations of how an album should sell. they don't see that Invincible was selling quietly, througout the criticism storm. and then was voted best album of the past decade by a magazine that hated Michael. the vote came yeaars later. after his death.

so it was a matter of patience, evidently. leave things as they are. step back.

Michael knew.

after all, he was the genius.
 
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do a tribute album to both jackie wilson and james brown. bring in a orchestra and allow mj to bring the gospel out on the background vocals.

take it back home all soulful and raw. nothing trendy just gutbucket and smooth.
 
Re: Om du hade möjligheten att arbeta med MJ Som producent

I would leave him to do the songs he wanted.I know it´s about how the album will sells and how radiofriendly it is, but I would like him to to the songs he loved to do.
It would be interesting to see in what direction he was going, gospels,classicals, dance tracks, whatever.
Maybe I could say I love this more
 
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Michael had intuitive sonic ability. that is a very very rare gift. it's rarer than gold. to recognize such a thing is the honorable thing to do. it's the humble thing to do. it's the right thing to do. Michael was very gracious. and it's worth repeating. people took advantage of that. musically.

the gift is the gift in this instance. his intuitiveness shouldn't be questioned.

he is the most successful artist of all time. because he made the final decisions. some things you just don't question. and i have nothing to gain from this. i'd like to have his talent, but i don't. i'm just willing to recognize what is. i could be envious. cus it's not my talent. and feel the need to tell him what's what. but, instead, i think it's thing to do. to recognize.

people are used to the idea of how Thriller got all the fanfare, and that that is the machinations of how an album should sell. they don't see that Invincible was selling quietly, througout the criticism storm. and then was voted best album of the past decade by a magazine that hated Michael. the vote came yeaars later. after his death.

so it was a matter of patience, evidently. leave things as they are. step back.

Michael knew.

after all, he was the genius.

Thank you for your post. You summed it up very nicely. In Moonwalker, Michael mentioned he hesitated to turn in Beat It becasue he's afraid that people wouldn't like it. He's afraid of getting hurt if the song was turned down. Now, please don't interpret it as "Michael had thin skin." Michael was a genius, a very sensitive genius. It's just his nature and so many people took advantage of it during his career.

If people whom Michael came across in his life accepted him for who he was and recognized his talents instead of being jealous, Michael's life might end very differently.

I agree with 144,000 that giving "contructive criticism" to a rare genius like Michael wouldn't help. Art is very elusive and subjective. Why second guess a genius' vision and intuition?

I guess it's human nature to not accept other's success. There are people criticizing every single one of Michael's ablum. Too few tracks, too many tracks, too futuristic, too slow, too many collaborations, too enhanced, too this, too that.... It gets to a point that all these suggestions and criticisms are contradicting one another.

Invincible, being Michael's least selling album, is more subject to criticism. But, I honestly can't imagine how else it could turn out. Invincible is great the way it is.

Musically, Michael never had an ego problem. All people who worked with him said he's open to others' ideas and very humble. He knew his talents and ability. That's Michael. He's confident, yet sensitive.
 
i assumed, when i posted my last post before this one, was someone would interpret me as a fanboy.

that hasn't happened as of yet, but i thought i'd post this, anyway...

here is a list of musicians, of which, the majority, i am not a fan of.

J.S. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald, Chopin, Liszt, Debussy, Miles Davis.

would you critique them? no. would i? no.

case closed.

Michael Jackson is part of that list.

it's like Poker. you gotta know when to hold em. and know when to fold em.

this isn't about fanship, here. this is just about objectivity of the music.
 
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How can you say that we have to agree to disagree and then write this long post? lol

if you're not walking in his moccasins, it's not your place to say how he should handle 'constructive criticism.'

According to the people he has worked with not one of them has ever said "Oh, he came in, did his thing and he never listened to anything I ever said or was never interested in my ideas." Not any one of those stories I came across. He seemed to have welcomed others opinions, but, as I said, it was still up to him whether or not he utilized them. I remember hearing him say something of that matter. One part of being an artist is about growing and learning to improve upon your art. Many artists are sensitive about their art. Very sensitive.


in the case of Michael, i'm not pulling punches. this was the place to honor the musician, and put aside your strong need, based on how you might strongly feel about what you think is weaker than it should be, musically. there were plenty of 'professional critics' in Michael's time, who thought they were the authority on what is 'slighgtly weak' and could use 'improvement'. Michael had intuitive sonic ability. that is a very very rare gift. it's rarer than gold. to recognize such a thing is the honorable thing to do. it's the humble thing to do. it's the right thing to do. Michael was very gracious. and it's worth repeating. people took advantage of that. musically.

I agree with you actually, which is what I did say at some point in my previous posts, but when you work in a teamwork setting, you still have to work as a team. While people may have taken advantage of his gracious nature, he was still the one who had to make the final decisions in the end. THIS IS WHAT HE SAID OUT OF HIS OWN MOUTH. I disagree with people thinking that they knew more than him and trying to give him criticism based off their own personal bias, but at the same time, while he was extremely talented, he was still a human being.

Even if the person giving him the suggestion may have been wrong, but, at least, he wasn't a complete asshole and told them to kiss his ass (in some cases maybe he should have). He respected them according to the impression I got. I'm more than certain that this is one of the main reasons why so many people he worked with have had such positive things to say about him. If the opposite was true, then I'm more than certain half of those people would be saying something, completely, different.


i think it's worth making the comparison here. if you have a drill seargent in the army, you don't question him. even if you feel strongly about something.

This analogy seems kind of inappropriate for this situation. When you are at work, you don't try to upstage your boss. Yet, if you make a suggestion that has come from passion rather than you just being a pompous jerk, it is appreciated. Especially if the one receiving the suggestion agrees with the idea. The most optimal time is when you are asked though, rather than trying to force it upon them as you have said.


and even then, with any songwriter...over analysis of a song..over fixing it...in reality, those have been the nature of the destruction of songs.

This is true for ANY TYPE OF ART. I gave one possible example, but at the same time this was a man who gave his own music for others to work on as well. He was interested in the ideas of others. He was interested in the art of others. He studied others heavily. Things like that are why he was such a successful artist. Things like this are why he was so great. Things like this is why I respect him as an artist.


songwriting and producing are elusive arts. but most artists will tell you, if they are successful..overdoing 'improvements' in songwriting and producing, can kill a song.

so many times, Michael said that.

Wasn't that statement kind of ironic? I mean...wasn't it Quincy Jones who had to come in and tell him to stop working on Who Is It, right? Correct me if I'm wrong though.

the reality is, if a person feels strongly to improve upon an artist who was the best selling...in reality, that is arrogance.

I agree with you here actually.


Robin Gibb said that Michael feared the idea of doing his latest tour, because of the overbearing criticism he knew he would receive. and i am talking musically. that was the trouble with this whole thing. and the crux of the tragic ending of the Michael Jackson saga. what was said about his life in general was just the additional horror.

That was never a big secret. Michael Jackson was always under heavy scrutiny no matter what he did. I realize that must have weighed heavily on his mind, but that kind of criticism isn't exactly the same as what I was talking about. There is criticism that people use to tear down others just, because they suffer from heavy personal bias and hate. Haters really. Yet, there is some made out of love and someone being, genuinely, concerned.

It seems that you reject the idea of both though.


what i think you're not recognizing is, that the more successful his craft was, the more people felt the need to criticize it. that's truly the pinnacle of never being satisfied. it was clear it would be a place of no escape for him. and people make the mistake of thinking that they can somehow control their 'little bit' of 'constructive criticism', when in reality, they wanted a blank cheque that they could sign, criticism wise. it's NEVER a little constructive criticism. there's no such thing. when people say that, the 'improvements' they feel the need to make, never end.

...This is also true, but at the same time, it was still up to HIM to make the call. People are going to do what they do regardless. It is human nature. Whether we think that those people are right or wrong is irrelevant. He was still the boss. It was up to him to make the call. Yet, as I stated earlier, he is still a human being. Humans make mistakes all the time, it's how we learn and progress. No one should ever be impervious to that.


if it's a mercedes benz, somehow i think i can improve upon it.

But they do all the time? I always thought people felt the need to improve upon something, because they love it, or feel passionate about it and want to be able to shape it into something to fit their vision. They feel strong enough to want to contribute to it. Again, not uncommon. And, as I stated, previously, it's still up to the the person, or people, in charge to take it the criticisms or leave it.

I do agree that trying to shape Michael Jackson as a musical act, or his music, into something you want is wrong. He was who he was and that's it and it's worked for him for a long time. Wanting him to become something that he is not, as a musical act, wouldn't make him Michael Jackson. It would make him just like the other musical acts out there. He's not and was never that in his solo career. This is what set him apart and made him as innovative as he was.

Yet, he is not impervious to criticisms, especially constructive ones that are made out of love and genuine passion for the art itself. Trying to argue that he is, makes it seem like you are trying to make him to be more than human. I am all for taking a step back and just shutting up and learning from the master(s). You should only make suggestions if you are asked. Yet, honesty is way more appreciated and it's good to be honest rather than being another yes men. Being a 'yes man' doesn't help anyone and it doesn't help bring the project, or anything, forward.


i just feel like this whole thing is about the Invincible album, which people spoke much criticism about.

If anything Off the Wall and Thriller had way less MJ penned material rather than his latter albums if I remember correctly.


people are used to the idea of how Thriller got all the fanfare, and that that is the machinations of how an album should sell. they don't see that Invincible was selling quietly, througout the criticism storm. and then was voted best album of the past decade by a magazine that hated Michael. the vote came yeaars later. after his death.

I am under the impression that, one day, people are going to rediscover his later work and really appreciate it, especially since his 80s work is so highly lauded now. Considering how highly underrated Invincible is too. I am more than certain of this.
 
How can you say that we have to agree to disagree and then write this long post? lol



According to the people he has worked with not one of them has ever said "Oh, he came in, did his thing and he never listened to anything I ever said or was never interested in my ideas." Not any one of those stories I came across. He seemed to have welcomed others opinions, but, as I said, it was still up to him whether or not he utilized them. I remember hearing him say something of that matter. One part of being an artist is about growing and learning to improve upon your art. Many artists are sensitive about their art. Very sensitive.




I agree with you actually, which is what I did say at some point in my previous posts, but when you work in a teamwork setting, you still have to work as a team. While people may have taken advantage of his gracious nature, he was still the one who had to make the final decisions in the end. THIS IS WHAT HE SAID OUT OF HIS OWN MOUTH. I disagree with people thinking that they knew more than him and trying to give him criticism based off their own personal bias, but at the same time, while he was extremely talented, he was still a human being.

Even if the person giving him the suggestion may have been wrong, but, at least, he wasn't a complete asshole and told them to kiss his ass (in some cases maybe he should have). He respected them according to the impression I got. I'm more than certain that this is one of the main reasons why so many people he worked with have had such positive things to say about him. If the opposite was true, then I'm more than certain half of those people would be saying something, completely, different.




This analogy seems kind of inappropriate for this situation. When you are at work, you don't try to upstage your boss. Yet, if you make a suggestion that has come from passion rather than you just being a pompous jerk, it is appreciated. Especially if the one receiving the suggestion agrees with the idea. The most optimal time is when you are asked though, rather than trying to force it upon them as you have said.




This is true for ANY TYPE OF ART. I gave one possible example, but at the same time this was a man who gave his own music for others to work on as well. He was interested in the ideas of others. He was interested in the art of others. He studied others heavily. Things like that are why he was such a successful artist. Things like this are why he was so great. Things like this is why I respect him as an artist.




Wasn't that statement kind of ironic? I mean...wasn't it Quincy Jones who had to come in and tell him to stop working on Who Is It, right? Correct me if I'm wrong though.



I agree with you here actually.




That was never a big secret. Michael Jackson was always under heavy scrutiny no matter what he did. I realize that must have weighed heavily on his mind, but that kind of criticism isn't exactly the same as what I was talking about. There is criticism that people use to tear down others just, because they suffer from heavy personal bias and hate. Haters really. Yet, there is some made out of love and someone being, genuinely, concerned.

It seems that you reject the idea of both though.




...This is also true, but at the same time, it was still up to HIM to make the call. People are going to do what they do regardless. It is human nature. Whether we think that those people are right or wrong is irrelevant. He was still the boss. It was up to him to make the call. Yet, as I stated earlier, he is still a human being. Humans make mistakes all the time, it's how we learn and progress. No one should ever be impervious to that.




But they do all the time? I always thought people felt the need to improve upon something, because they love it, or feel passionate about it and want to be able to shape it into something to fit their vision. They feel strong enough to want to contribute to it. Again, not uncommon. And, as I stated, previously, it's still up to the the person, or people, in charge to take it the criticisms or leave it.

I do agree that trying to shape Michael Jackson as a musical act, or his music, into something you want is wrong. He was who he was and that's it and it's worked for him for a long time. Wanting him to become something that he is not, as a musical act, wouldn't make him Michael Jackson. It would make him just like the other musical acts out there. He's not and was never that in his solo career. This is what set him apart and made him as innovative as he was.

Yet, he is not impervious to criticisms, especially constructive ones that are made out of love and genuine passion for the art itself. Trying to argue that he is, makes it seem like you are trying to make him to be more than human. I am all for taking a step back and just shutting up and learning from the master(s). You should only make suggestions if you are asked. Yet, honesty is way more appreciated and it's good to be honest rather than being another yes men. Being a 'yes man' doesn't help anyone and it doesn't help bring the project, or anything, forward.




If anything Off the Wall and Thriller had way less MJ penned material rather than his latter albums if I remember correctly.




I am under the impression that, one day, people are going to rediscover his later work and really appreciate it, especially since his 80s work is so highly lauded now. Considering how highly underrated Invincible is too. I am more than certain of this.


i'll sum this up in a short reply. i have stated that Michael's gracious manner is irrelevant to this subject. just because he looked for other ideas, doesn't mean his work wasn't perfect, and in reality, the other people would do better to say, 'no MJ, you are the master, of this situation', and they should throw it back to him. as i have stated, too many people have taken advantage of his gracious manner. that is why there are so many Paul Ankas in this world, who are monster task masters, because the Michael Jacksons of this world(of which there is only one) are taken advantage of. this is why the drill sergeant analogy does apply. a drill sergeant should not be needed for people to give drill sergeant type of respect, before a musical master.

the 'he is only human' quotient does not apply to his craft. his craft is a gift. it's a perfect gift. the humble thing to do, is recognize that. the gift is apart from the person, though it is in the person. and a genius gift should be recognized as such. it does not need improving upon. you conveniently left out the other masters i mentioned, in music. the Beethovens, the Bachs, the Ellingtons etc. i don't think any of us would be arrogant enough to question them. so Michael should get the same treatment.

we do agree on one thing. MJ was the boss, and he did make the final decisions. his negotiating skills were also perfect, and part of the gift. he made people feel like contributors. that is why, he was in charge onstage, and didn't want to leave the stage.

he knew what was best. not everybody who had a contribution, ended up on the record. in an MJ situation, he knew better what to do with their contributions than they did. this is why their records apart from his projects sound so different from their contributions in his projects.
 
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you conveniently left out the other masters i mentioned, in music. the Beethovens, the Bachs, the Ellingtons etc. i don't think any of us would be arrogant enough to question them. so Michael should get the same treatment.

I left them out b/c I wasn't trying to double post at the time, but I'm more than certain many people questioned those people you have listed there as well. While they were masters of their craft they were also subjected to criticisms, constructive or not, and I'm more than certain the people they worked with also gave suggestions in the same manner. Whether or not they honored or listened to them...I can not say. This is the nature of art. Admitting that doesn't cheapen or lessen their immense gifts. Not at all.


the 'he is only human' quotient does not apply to his craft. his craft is a gift. it's a perfect gift.

It does, because humans still make mistakes and require help sometimes. He was never above and neither was, or is, anyone else. Ever.

Also, for your drill sergeant analogy. Working on an album is not like training to get into the army. Not at all.
 
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I left them out b/c I wasn't trying to double post at the time, but I'm more than certain many people questioned those people you have listed there as well. While they were masters of their craft they were also subjected to criticisms, constructive or not, and I'm more than certain the people they worked with also gave suggestions in the same manner. Whether or not they honored or listened to them...I can not say. This is the nature of art. Admitting that doesn't cheapen or lessen their immense gifts. Not at all.




It does, because humans still make mistakes and require help sometimes. He was never above and neither was, or is, anyone else. Ever.

Also, for your drill sergeant analogy. Working on an album is not like training to get into the army. Not at all.

when i say we have to agree to disagree, and then i post why, it's to clear my position on the subject.

the immense talents of Beethoven, Bach and Michael Jackson are beyond question. like you said...if, ultimately, they didn't listen, when it came to making the final decision, that doesn't cheapen their gifts. that's where we agree.

the talent is a complete entity. doesn't need improving upon. has nothing to do with the person housing it. that is the true nature of art. because it's elusive, you and i would argue into eternity. so we again have to agree to disagree. drill sergeant and everything else. we disagree. again, the drill sergeant thing was me saying that Michael should have been able to be the gracious person he was, but his employees should give him the respect due a drill sergeant, anyway. because if they overrode his final decisions, everything is destroyed. you and i are not on this site, and not buying his music. obviously, his final decisions paid him dividends.

you and i are on this site. we have bought MJ's music. that speaks more for my argument.

and i will finally add something i said before, but you have denied. if you have the job skill and i don't, then you get the job. that has nothing to do with who is the better human being. i wish you hadn't entered an idea like that, when one has nothing to do with the other. i never said one human being is better than another human being. i said, one has the skill that the other doesn't. you and i both know that those are two different issues.

but...i will stop now. thanks for the debate.
 
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I'd also get him to quit, for just the once in his later recording life, with this maddening supposed emphasis on perfection to the point where year after year after year after year is passing without him having issued anything, or hardly anything, to the public because it 'just needs to be a bit better'. It's a song we're producing, Michael, not a cure for cancer
 
I'd also get him to quit, for just the once in his later recording life, with this maddening supposed emphasis on perfection to the point where year after year after year after year is passing without him having issued anything, or hardly anything, to the public because it 'just needs to be a bit better'. It's a song we're producing, Michael, not a cure for cancer

Erm... isn't that, word-for-word, exactly what I said on a similar thread last year on MaxJax? It might be an idea to credit me in future if you're using my exact words - what with MaxJax being offline for an upgrade right now, I can't even check unfortunately. It's no big deal if you agree with me, though.

But anyway, as you do appear to have copied my words, yes, I agree with them wholeheartedly and was just about to post something to the same effect. Another thing I would've personally done with a lot of his later stuff is cut the running times. There are just so many songs on Invincible in particular that, for me, just drag on and on and on without any real consequence. Unbreakable, Heartbreaker and Invincible would've been punchier and more impactful if he'd only limited their running times to 3-4 minutes.

Same goes for the track listing. I prefer the intimacy of a track listing of no more than about ten songs (no wonder I'm so drawn to OTW, Thriller and 'Michael'). After that, I find most studio albums exhausting to try to listen to in one go, particularly combined with the insanely long running times and grandoise intros like those found on the likes of WYBT. Not my kind of thing, personally.

Mind you, knowing my incompetence with the technical side of music, I'd have long been sacked well before I'd got to make any such suggestions. :p
 
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