I was talking to someone about who influenced Michael and....

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

I'm on this other thing, similar to a forum and i was just giving a heads up on that Bad 25 is almost out. Then someone said these things, and i'd like to know what you think. I've also put a video in here from Bob Fosse, it clearly shows typical MJ moves..or is it the other way around? Either way here it is:

"He was more a example of the modern age in terms of self-indulgence. He became exactly what he wanted, and who he wanted by forming a collage of pop culture and other artists into his own creation.

Those who don't study or have interest in history, or merely not of age, often do not realize what has been done before and/or how icons "borrow" from artists.

I think it's more of a case of spread information, allowing you to be more aware of the stealing.


Well, I guess stealing and borrowing are in the eyes of the fan (iPhone vs Samsung ). Never the less, I certainly doubt he will be in any musical history books, maybe manufacturing corporate icons

Well you can analyze it until it ends in just Dance itself, but inspiration is not boldfaced thievery. And frankly, MJ was product, whether you like him or not, he was product. A very successful one.

If you're into that stuff, it's fine. But labels actually mold new "pop-talent" off his and Madonna's model. They don't write their own music, they perform. They're entertainers. Like Blue-man group.

Watch from 2:05

[youtube]L8mJsgPj1iU[/youtube]

I told the guy that Michael never made a secret of that he got influence from several artists. Also that he didn't create the Moonwalk but simply improved/perfected it. And who's to say that Bob Fosse didn't see those moves from yet another dancer, as well? If Bob Fosse indeed did this before Mike..it's undeniable that MJ definitely got inspiration from him. But i also don't think MJ ever claimed he created those moves...he always gave credit to the artists, that was Mike. He took those moves, made several of his own, gave it a twist and perfected it.

Correct me if i'm wrong..but MJ never ever claimed to have come up with all these dancemoves himself. If anything...it's certain people that were under the assumption that Mike claimed this, right?

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Michael had a very interesting philosophy. "Be the best at what you do, no matter what it is." And that's what he did. Practice something until it becomes you, until nobody else can do it the way YOU do it. There are a ton of ballet dancers out there dancing on toes - so what? He made it something like a trademark outside of ballet. He was also quite brilliant at repeating these trademarks so often that they would be literally burned into your consciousness. It's called branding and he was quite the marketing genius.

He observed. He also recognized patterns in things that 'worked well'. He was a master at recognizing the elements that worked and picking them up. All great artists do this. They become unique and recognizable for something unique. All dancers jump - and some jump higher.

He didn't imitate. He picked up elements of dance and practiced them until it become 'his' and would be associated with him and his own style.

All artists cook with water - but the great ones become unique.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

That is actually very very well said. It's true, practically any artists gets influence from others, goes for music, movie, art. I also truly believe that Michael came up with plenty of his own moves too, plenty of them that already existed and that he perfected and gave his own twist to it, but also plenty of ones that came from him 100%.

By the way...is there a way to refresh this page? Ever since it became the new forum refreshing a page brings me back to the main page, highly annoying.

 

[MJultimatemusiclegen]

Tbh i don't really see it, there is a couple of moved that bare resemblance to ones MJ does, but not a lot, and what he's doing here seems to be influenced from yet other styles of dance too, it's all just an evolution, dance evolves, like music does, Beethoven is just an expansion of what Mozart did harmonically, adding his own innovations along the way. There are only so many things you can physically do with a human body that would be called 'dance' it's possibility's are not limitless, what you have to work with is pretty basic. It's quite likely whatever Michael does whether he does see and use as an influence or not, somebody else has done something similar in the past, he'll have had a lot of dance influences, it's almost like me saying i've got to reinvent music if i want to make a piece of music, i don't think so, i just take the way it's already evolved, and make my own combination, but it would be near impossible to do so, without the endless reference points of the past.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

Yep definitely true. And i hope i didn't give the impression that i agree with the guy, cause i really definitely don't. I feel he was being way too negative and harsh on MJ. Basically what he says is that MJ was nothing special and like 'all those pop stars' sorry but that's just a huge insult to one of the greats out there. And even though he didn't say anything about what he thought of him as a person, i have a strong feeling he ain't too fond of MJ in the first place. MJ said...study the greats and become greater. This guy flat out says that MJ's a 'product' like Lady Gaga and Britney...what a moron , sorry.

 

[Gozer]

It's just not possible to do something without being influenced by someone or something else, and there's no shame in that - but what you do with that influence can be very new and unique, at least until everyone else starts copying it. You can try to copy what's influencing you, which is what most artists do, honestly - or you can work on improving or expanding it. I think MJ is in the last category

Also, for someone to say that an artist isn't "original", they would really have had to have been around when that artist first started out. It's like when I, as a 35 year old, listen to the earliest Beatles recordings, I can't hear what someone who actually lived in the 60s heard. I can appreciate it - but I can't possibly understand the impact it would have had on someone who wasn't already used to the music I grew up with, where the Beatles influence is found everywhere.

 

[teli-mj]

There is no artist out there who hasn't been influenced by someone else. And there'S no artist who hasn't borrowed or plain steal something from someone else.Anyone who thinks otherwise lives in the La-la land.

This guy is obviously a pretentious prick, one of those people who publicly anathematize anything that is popular or commercially succesful in order to seem cool but secretly can't stop singing Barbie girl and dance to the Macarena. Oh and tell him not to worry about MJ being on history books.MJ made history from the moment he jointed the Jackson 5 band.
There is someone that no history book is ever going to mention though. His snobbish ass.

 

[HIStory]

Stealing? Being influenced is not stealing. I see some resamblance in some moves here and there but it's not so similar that I would call it stealing (let alone "bold faced thievery").

And Bob Fosse too had his influences, like everyone else. For example his influence was Fred Astaire, who we all know how much praised and rated Michael.

That's just how art works. Artists are ALWAYS influenced by artists of previous generations. For example Michelangelo, like all Renaissance artists, modeled their works after ancient Greek classics - does that make them thiefs? No one is 100% original. That's just impossible. The task is to make it your own and take it to another level. And that's exactly what MJ did.

And no, Bob Fosse wasn't the inventor of Moonwalk either (in case the guy considers the move at 6:25 moonwalk): "There are many recorded instances of the moonwalk, similar steps are reported as far back as 1932, used by Cab Calloway." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalk_(dance)) Does this make Fosse a thief as well?

And BTW, I don't know if he's suggesting MJ didn't write his music or just that those who are inspired by him don't, but what he writes her is not true in either way:

"If you're into that stuff, it's fine. But labels actually mold new "pop-talent" off his and Madonna's model. They don't write their own music, they perform. They're entertainers. Like Blue-man group."

I agree with your comments guys. This guy seems to be an ignorant (he might have knowledge of past dancers but he's ignorant about how art works), yet arrogant and snobbish prick.

I actually went to a ballet forum about a week ago. I was curious of what "serious dancers" had to say about MJ as a dancer and I was looking for such threads. Obviously he was mostly discussed around his death. Mostly it was positive (unfortunately then someone brought up the allegations and it went into that direction). There were some old schoolers who started to compare him to Elvis (nothing to do with dance) - "of course" :smilerolleyes:, in favor of Elvis, saying things those showed their ignorance. That MJ didn't write his music and was "just" a singer and dancer. When it's actually the other way around: it was Elvis who didn't write his music and was "just a singer". Michael actually did write his music.

Anyway, apart from that (many times ignorant) discussion, as a dancer he was mostly praised. Of course, they noted that he wasn't a trained dancer, but actually most enjoyed his dancing. I remember one guy who said he HATED pop music in general, so he wasn't very much impressed by MJ's music either, but he couldn't take his eyes off him when watching the Billie Jean video.


Also when dancers such as Fred Astaire, Mikhail Baryshnikov, Debbie Allen, James Brown etc. praise Michael as a dancer, I don't think we need to worry about some bitter and jealous prick on the Internet.

 

[teli-mj]

Respect, when i was referring to stealing i meant something like this

Led Zeppelin are considered one of the most important and influential rock groups of all time.Yet, most of their songs were plain stealing of other artists music and songs because they never gave credit to the original song makers (Only now and after lawsuit after lawsuit they have started to do so). And of course Zeppelin are not the only one. All artist have their influences and of course all artist or most of them have borrowed or, like in this case, take something from someone else without give credits. This is how it works and this is how art evolves. Whoever thinks that everything is original lives, like i said, in their own time space.

 

[Bubs]

I have come across with this argument that MJ was "stealing" from Bob Fosse Snake in the Grass before. Might be the same person going around the internet spewing his/her hate towards Michael

This argument is invalid as everyone learn things in their lives from someone else and then perfect it to suit for themselves (make it their own). Even the greatest are influenced by someone else, why can't Michael? Michael always credited the person by whom he was influenced, Fred Astaire for example. Did this person mention in his/her post that Bob Fosse was influenced by Fred? Did he blamed Bob for stealing from Fred? The cold hard fact is that Bob F was influenced by Fred A and Jerome Robbins , their influence can be seen in Bobs dance, the same way James Brown Fred A and Bob F can be seen in Michael's dance.

If I have more time, I could go on youtube and I would most definitely find Bob F dance number that is similar to Fred A. It would be useless as then I would have to go and see from where Fred drew his influence, and then where this person got his moves, and so on. At the end of line, there would be a videos of cave people dancing


A snippet from article Sarah Kaufman Analyzes the Magic Behind Jackson's Dancing:
Jackson was a perfectionist, and could relate to other perfectionists. Baryshnikov got to know him through Elizabeth Taylor, who would "drag him to see me dance," Baryshnikov said, when he was at American Ballet Theatre and later when performing in the White Oak Dance Project, his modern-dance company. They would talk about ballet -- Jackson had a lot of questions, he recalled, "like a 12-year-old" -- and he would ask about working with choreographers. He told Baryshnikov that choreographers would suggest ideas to him, but that he created his own dances. What Baryshnikov remembers most about Jackson, he said, was "not even his turns or his grabbing his crotch. Just his simple, bouncy walk across the stage, that was what was most beautiful and arresting, swinging his hips, kicking his heel forward. That's to me what he is: that superior confidence in his body as a dancer. You wanted to say, 'Wow, this guy, what a cat; he can really move in his own way.' "

That walk was his own, but Jackson absorbed some of his other moves from his forebears. He didn't invent the moonwalk, for instance -- tap dancers stretching back at least to the 1940s thrilled audiences with what was called the backslide -- but he perfected it. He didn't invent that swift twist of a spin, or the art of punctuating a lyric or a backbeat with a punch of his pelvis. But as with every other element of his incomparable showmanship, he perfected those moves and made them his own. No pop star brought dance to the stage the way Jackson did. Not for him to draw aside and let backup dancers take the spotlight while he crooned. He was always the soloist, a Gene Kelly breaking out of a song to tell us a story with his steps.

Full story here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/26/AR2009062604257.html

When Beatles covered Everly Brothers song, Paul said in one interview of the cover "we made it our own".
Same can be said Michael, someone's influence can be seen in his dance, he made it his own.
The same way we can see Michael's influence in Beyonce's, Chris B and other younger generation dance.
That is the way how it works, generations to generations.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

^ Totally agree.

'Bad artists copy, great artists steal.'
Pablo picasso

Can't argue with picasso!

 

[la_cienega]

I don't recall Fosse using those dance moves to dance to popular music.

It's like the moonwalk, when you see it used before it was used in dance, but it wasn't used as part of a performance to a song, it didn't seem relevant to the song at all. The moonwalk in Billie Jean is part of the tension/emotion of the song. It feels like a part of the song/beat. And he didn't just imitate the moonwalk and be done with it, he added a spin and then went onto his toes, nobody had done it like that before and if you do that now everyone knows you're doing MJ, and now it feels wrong to see it done any other way because of him. That's how MJ would use all those moves, adding them all together in different ways.

The way he would incorporate so much, and from so many different sources and the ways he used them in the performances of his songs, to make them feel like part of the songs, are what made his moves so iconic and what sets him apart from so many other modern pop dancers.

I think some people just enjoy trying to catch Michael out, so they can say AHA! he wasn't that talented.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

^ Totally agree.

'Bad artists copy, great artists steal.'
Pablo picasso

Can't argue with picasso!

This quote has me confused. MJ is a great great artist...so he stole according to Picasso then?

As for the other posts here, i agree 100%. It's ridiculous when people say they love Elvis and his music...his music? Right...not really. Same with Madonna apparently, i was surprised to hear she never wrote a song. Mike didn't write ALL of his songs, a few have been written by someone else as listed in the booklets. But most songs..he wrote.

 

[Lucilla]

I'm on this other thing, similar to a forum and i was just giving a heads up on that Bad 25 is almost out. Then someone said these things, and i'd like to know what you think. I've also put a video in here from Bob Fosse, it clearly shows typical MJ moves..or is it the other way around? Either way here it is:

"He was more a example of the modern age in terms of self-indulgence. He became exactly what he wanted, and who he wanted by forming a collage of pop culture and other artists into his own creation.

Those who don't study or have interest in history, or merely not of age, often do not realize what has been done before and/or how icons "borrow" from artists.

I think it's more of a case of spread information, allowing you to be more aware of the stealing.


Well, I guess stealing and borrowing are in the eyes of the fan (iPhone vs Samsung ). Never the less, I certainly doubt he will be in any musical history books, maybe manufacturing corporate icons

Well you can analyze it until it ends in just Dance itself, but inspiration is not boldfaced thievery. And frankly, MJ was product, whether you like him or not, he was product. A very successful one.

If you're into that stuff, it's fine. But labels actually mold new "pop-talent" off his and Madonna's model. They don't write their own music, they perform. They're entertainers. Like Blue-man group.

Watch from 2:05

[youtube]L8mJsgPj1iU[/youtube]

I told the guy that Michael never made a secret of that he got influence from several artists. Also that he didn't create the Moonwalk but simply improved/perfected it. And who's to say that Bob Fosse didn't see those moves from yet another dancer, as well? If Bob Fosse indeed did this before Mike..it's undeniable that MJ definitely got inspiration from him. But i also don't think MJ ever claimed he created those moves...he always gave credit to the artists, that was Mike. He took those moves, made several of his own, gave it a twist and perfected it.

Correct me if i'm wrong..but MJ never ever claimed to have come up with all these dancemoves himself. If anything...it's certain people that were under the assumption that Mike claimed this, right?

The Beatles were also a product, Pink Floyd were a product, gee f** Dylan is also a product simply because their music have a price. I'm really tired of all these hypocrisy about what is "real music" or "real art" in modern times.

And when this guy doesn't acknowledge MJ's creative control then you're talking to an ignorant.
As simple as that.

 

[Chamife]

I'm not talking about the choreographed dancing....but to me it was always very clear that Michael moved as the music directed him. He really was a slave to the rhythm. He became one with the music. That's why he always danced perfectly in sync with the beat. And he enjoyed it very much too. That love for music and dance, he radiated it.

I can't recall I ever saw another artist do that.