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I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

filmandmusic said:
I
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filmandmusic said:
It would have been so unique though! For 99% of the albums you are right but Thriller had to be milked till the end. We will never see such success ever again :)
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‘thriller’ was a once in a lifetime phenomenon. even though the album had exceeded expectations by the middle of the year, it was the short film for the title track that ultimately put it over the edge, and was responsible for what it became.

one of the reasons why michael wanted to do the short film was because the album was losing momentum, and had fallen from the top spot by that time. in the states, 6 singles had been released at that point, but only 2 of them (‘billie jean’ & ‘beat it’) had videos. in the uk, ‘human nature’ was not released, and ‘p.y.t (pretty young thing)’, was the final single released in ‘84 instead of ‘thriller’, and was the only one to narrowly miss the top 10 at number 11. not only were there no videos for the remaining 3/4 singles, but aside from motown 25, there were no performances of those singles.

it’s important to note that michael was without a manager post motown 25, and pre ‘thriller’ short film. this may have affected these circumstances.

another issue was the lack of b sides, apart from ‘can’t get outta the rain’. if someone had already owned the album by the time ‘beat it’ was released, there was very little incentive to buy the following singles.

I personally think that the 5 best songs from the album were released. they were able to achieve what they did based on their own unique strengths. there were dedicated collectors who purchased everything with michael’s name on it. then there was the general public who gravitated to particular singles for different reasons, ie rock fans and ‘beat it’ etc.

still, spending almost 2 years releasing songs from the same album can be wasteful. it slows an artist down and prevents them from moving on to new things. releasing the singles without an album could be a way to keep things fresh for listeners. music is also constantly shifting. there is a danger of being left behind.

luckily ‘thriller’ was groundbreaking and continues to sound fresh to this day. however, I think that the success of the album was organic just as much as it was premeditated. there was no formula that could be duplicated.
 
Dart_Jack said:
At the same time, there are J5 fans who are not so fond of the solo adult Michael. For example, people of older age categories.
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Not as common as the other way around. I've met one J5 fan in my life, who ONLY likes J5 and who doesn't care for adult solo MJ. And idk how many I've met who doesn't care for J5, but it's a lot
 
Michaels Lover said:
Not as common as the other way around. I've met one J5 fan in my life, who ONLY likes J5 and who doesn't care for adult solo MJ. And idk how many I've met who doesn't care for J5, but it's a lot
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There are fans of Motown music in total (Not just the Jackson 5). The adult Michael has moved away from this sound, so he may not be in their sphere of interest.
 
Michaels Lover said:
Not as common as the other way around. I've met one J5 fan in my life, who ONLY likes J5 and who doesn't care for adult solo MJ.
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Wow! That's interesting. I've never encountered this, ever. Does this person also like The Jacksons or is it just J5?

Michaels Lover said:
And idk how many I've met who doesn't care for J5, but it's a lot
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Too many to count (although, tbf, I'm including people who did like J5 back in the day but then focused all their attention and energy on adult Michael). :D
 
zinniabooklover said:
Wow! That's interesting. I've never encountered this, ever. Does this person also like The Jacksons or is it just J5?


Too many to count (although, tbf, I'm including people who did like J5 back in the day but then focused all their attention and energy on adult Michael). :D
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The adult Michael has too few records. They can be played in a circle. That has its drawbacks. The 70s era is more extensive, it had its own gems.
 
I agree with dart. Michael should have released at least 15 adult solo albums. I'd take a less successful Michael over what we got because it would have meant more album releases.
 
zinniabooklover said:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I'm perfectly happy with his adult output. :)


I don't understand your point.


Well, yes.
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Over time, you can lose enthusiasm for records because you listen to them too often. I can't admire his adult albums as much as I did 10 years ago. Moreover, Michael has only 6 adult albums, a couple of posthumous albums and songs from compilations. But that's not much. And I can’t admire his concert tours as much anymore, of which there were 3 and I watched them many times.

The 70s period is underrated and offers a greater volume of material to choose from. Especially the period 1973-1978.
 
filmandmusic said:
I agree with dart. Michael should have released at least 15 adult solo albums. I'd take a less successful Michael over what we got because it would have meant more album releases.
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The Jacksons period is a partial outlet) After all, Michael was no longer a child there, but he wrote and was the main soloist in the songs. And these are underrated years.
 
Dart_Jack said:
The Jacksons period is a partial outlet) After all, Michael was no longer a child there, but he wrote and was the main soloist in the songs. And these are underrated years.
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It is still only 2 extra albums where he was the main creative force. I once wished they would be re released as Michael Jackson albums so they would find an audience. Destiny and Triumph have almost no streaming numbers

I consider destiny his 3rd best adult album after thriller and off the wall.

There was work on a follow up to Thriller around 1984 or so but it never materialized because Thriller kept selling and breaking records.

Here is my top 10

1 Thriller
2 Off The Wall
3 Destiny
4 Got To Be There
5 The Jacksons
6 Forever Michael
7 Diana Ross Presents
8 ABC
9 Dangerous
10 Triumph

The first 3 are classics, from 4 to 8 are great and 9 and 10 are good, dangerous is still there because of my childhood memories but it is way too long and I grew tired of the overproduced NJS sound. The 2nd half of the album is among his greatest work though.
 
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filmandmusic said:
It is still only 2 extra albums where he was the main creative force. I once wished they would be re released as Michael Jackson albums so they would find an audience. Destiny and Triumph have almost no streaming numbers

I consider destiny his 3rd best adult album after thriller and off the wall.

There was work on a follow up to Thriller around 1984 or so but it never materialized because Thriller kept selling and breaking records.

Here is my top 10

1 Thriller
2 Off The Wall
3 Destiny
4 Got To Be There
5 The Jacksons
6 Forever Michael
7 Diana Ross Presents
8 ABC
9 Dangerous
10 Triumph

The first 3 are classics, from 4 to 8 are great and 9 and 10 are good, dangerous is still there because of my childhood memories but it is way too long and I grew tired of the overproduced NJS sound. The 2nd half of the album is among his greatest work though.
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I love also his works with Gamble & Huff.
 
Style of Life is a nice song but it's not Wanna Be Startin' Somethin.

The J5-Jackson's era, you appreciate for the singing.

The Thriller - Dangerous, you appreciate for the quality of the music. The breadth of musical ambition.

HIStory and Blood, you enjoy for the quality of the artistic ambition. The prose, the emotion, the lyricism. Even when it's not the most impressive song, the pulse of it is so strong you can't help but relate even when you really can't relate.
 
I don't like Michael's pompous self-aggrandizement in the History Teaser. It makes some unpleasant allusions to tyrannical totalitarian regimes of the past.
 
Dart_Jack said:
There are fans of Motown music in total (Not just the Jackson 5). The adult Michael has moved away from this sound, so he may not be in their sphere of interest.
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My father is one of them. He likes the music of the Jackson 5, Diana Ross & The Supremes, Stevie Wonder etc, but not adult Michael Jackson. When I watched a Dangerous tour concert on tv he only liked the J5 medley lol.
 
I'm a fan, but.... I enjoy MJs work and don't think he was a raging narcissist who lost all ability after 1983.

Guess that makes me unique, or 'heretic' on here these days.
 
Kissenya said:
in fact almost everyone agrees with you...i think
I don't think MJ ever showed any signs of being a narcissist🧐
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Is the film Moonwalker not a sign of narcissism?
Isn't building giant statues HIStory of yourself narcissistic?
The Legends Continuity and The One not a sign of narcissism?
HIStory Teaser not a sign of narcissism?
 
Dart_Jack said:
Is the film Moonwalker not a sign of narcissism?
Isn't building giant statues HIStory of yourself narcissistic?
The Legends Continuity and The One not a sign of narcissism?
HIStory Teaser not a sign of narcissism?
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Narcissism is a personal quality that makes a person value itself highly and demand admiration from others. The attitude towards other people is disdainful, contemptuous, not implying empathy.

ALWAYS combined with an arrogant, contemptuous attitude towards others.
Michael, naturally, liked to be admired (and deservedly so), but he has no signs of this mental pathology

He was the greatest and richest artist. And could afford a lot in terms of surroundings, costumes, previews. And he allowed
If you already have money and fame, then why limit yourself? What he did and the way he did it, the way he presented himself at concerts, made his performances vivid and memorable.
Besides, the more he did what you call narcissism, the more he was discussed, promoted and the more money he made. Him and his team. Businessman. Rich artist. But not a narcissist..
 
Kissenya said:
[...] Besides, the more he did what you call narcissism, the more he was discussed, promoted and the more money he made. Him and his team.
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Good point. Personally, I was not keen on the HIStory statues. But does that matter? Everybody was talking about them; whether they liked the thing or not there was a real buzz about them. Good PR, imo.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Good point. Personally, I was not keen on the HIStory statues. But does that matter? Everybody was talking about them; whether they liked the thing or not there was a real buzz about them. Good PR, imo.
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yes, sometimes presenting oneself to the public in this way causes internal dissonance)))) because it makes one think of arrogance
But Michael always treated people well and was too trusting, which is why he suffered
 
Kissenya said:
yes, sometimes presenting oneself to the public in this way causes internal dissonance)))) because it makes one think of arrogance [...]
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Ngl, I thought the statue (floating down the Thames, I'm in the UK) was a bit pretentious. But I also thought it was a genius PR move. It was all over the papers and tv news programmes, everyone talked about it for weeks. So it did the job it was required to do. Loads of free publicity. Result!

Dart_Jack said:
Is the film Moonwalker not a sign of narcissism?
Isn't building giant statues HIStory of yourself narcissistic?
The Legends Continuity and The One not a sign of narcissism?
HIStory Teaser not a sign of narcissism?
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I see all of this as a performing artist doing his job. He was a global superstar, developing multiple income streams and staging dramatic PR events seems quite normal, I would say.

The other point I would make is, personally, I'm not keen on psychoanalysing people that I haven't met. I have no psychotherapeutic training, I didn't know Michael, I'm certainly not going to judge him based on media coverage.
 
Kissenya said:
Narcissism is a personal quality that makes a person value itself highly and demand admiration from others. The attitude towards other people is disdainful, contemptuous, not implying empathy.

ALWAYS combined with an arrogant, contemptuous attitude towards others.
Michael, naturally, liked to be admired (and deservedly so), but he has no signs of this mental pathology

He was the greatest and richest artist. And could afford a lot in terms of surroundings, costumes, previews. And he allowed
If you already have money and fame, then why limit yourself? What he did and the way he did it, the way he presented himself at concerts, made his performances vivid and memorable.
Besides, the more he did what you call narcissism, the more he was discussed, promoted and the more money he made. Him and his team. Businessman. Rich artist. But not a narcissist..
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During the Thriller years, he had not yet tried to erect monuments to himself and it was clear to everyone that he was already the best.
And in the era of History he became a monument to himself and his vanity.
I think modesty is a beauty. And to be truly great, you don't have to elevate yourself through laudatory documentaries.
 
Dart_Jack said:
I think modesty is a beauty. And to be truly great, you don't have to elevate yourself through laudatory documentaries.
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in a spiritual sense, I agree with you, but the world of show business is cruel, it is difficult for modest people to live in it and it is absolutely impossible to achieve the heights of MJ...
 
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