How the Estate should've treated the issue of a "follow up album" to Invincible

[sweetdudejim]

So to start off, it seems obvious to me that the Estate should have used the first posthumous album to be an approximation of what could've been Michael's next album using handwritten notes, things he told collaborators, etc. It's obvious looking at those sheets he had hanging in house with all the songs listed that he had some idea of what he wanted to be working on. So obviously wouldn't it have been smart for the Estate to use those lists (or others if they existed) to fashion an album (or possibly even more than one album).

To me, after using this stuff to get started, you would find the songs listed, and see what you had. And see how far along what they had was. For stuff like "Hold My Hand" which seems to be finished, just put it on the album. For things like "Hollywood Tonight", "Beautiful Girl", "The Way You Love Me", and whatever else, you take the song at the point it was left at. So if you had "Hollywood Tonight" as we heard it on the leak, mix it, master it and put it out. Same with "Beautiful Girl" and "The Way You Love Me", use the versions from The Ultimate Collection if he hadn't actually worked on new versions. These are songs that he wanted to use, and instead of having someone like Teddy Riley (who had nothing to do with these songs) coming in a remixing and reproducing, you'd release it to the public with the understanding that these songs were just part of Michael's vision, and while we're not sure what he would have done, we're not gonna second guess him and therefore will give you an approximation. Same thing with stuff like "Scared Of The Moon", "Cheater" and "Throwing Your Life Away" they could have put the '80s versions on there if there was nothing newer than those available (with an explanation in the liner notes that these are among songs Michael was considering for a new project).

I think what they did instead, with the Michael album was just a mess. I think they had the right idea with "Hold My Hand" and seemingly "Best of Joy" on there, but with "Hollywood Tonight" and "(I Like) The Way You Love Me" it seems like they took it upon themselves to figure out what Michael would have wanted, which I think is presumptuous. I think the versions of "Hollywood Tonight" that Michael actually worked on seemed to much better than the version on the album. I while I like the version of "The Way You Love Me", it's still nothing more than a remix to me since we have the original version on The Ultimate Collection and unless they have proof that Michael was working on the second version before he died, it's not as useful to me. And then you got "Behind The Mask", "Much Too Soon" and "Another Day", which realistically shouldn't be on the album. They each should have been saved for sets concentrating on Thriller, HIStory and Invincible respectively. And even though I like individual original versions on Xscape they really make no sense as an album, and I also think it's unfair that I had to purchase a version with all the Timbaland remixes and whatnot to get them. The Estate needs to understand that Michael wasn't a fan of remixes of his stuff in the first place (everybody conveniently seems to forget this), and that his unreleased work is what it is, and will probably not be a huge hit. Usually dead people don't have huge hit songs five years after their death. Sorry. However, I know a lot of people would like to hear TRULY unreleased MJ material AS HE LEFT IT. So, hopefully we'll see the Estate continue to learn. They've already learned that they shouldn't touch the Cascio tracks with a ten foot pole, and that fans want original versions. Now hopefully they learn that they don't have to "update" material, seeing as we are dealing with Michael Jackson and not some one hit wonder hack. Let's trust MJ's instincts.

Anyways, what I'm saying is, although I'm glad the Estate gave us the option of buying a deluxe edition of Xscape which the versions of the songs as Michael actually worked them, they definitely shouldn't be relegated behind "remixes", and that before the Estate starts digging in outtakes for old albums they really should first have tried to do right by Michael and tried to piece together a true, "final" album for him.

 

[mj_brainiac]

I was thinking the same thing recently

 

[Condor9333]

Me too.

 

[Zakk]

follow up to invincible should be all the tracks recorded from 2002-2009! i know we won't get them for a while.. but it would be cool to see what kinda song's are in the vault from that era..

 

[AlwaysThere]

So to start off, it seems obvious to me that the Estate should have used the first posthumous album to be an approximation of what could've been Michael's next album using handwritten notes, things he told collaborators, etc. It's obvious looking at those sheets he had hanging in house with all the songs listed that he had some idea of what he wanted to be working on. So obviously wouldn't it have been smart for the Estate to use those lists (or others if they existed) to fashion an album (or possibly even more than one album).

The estate, matter of fact, did approximate Michael's wishes with the first posthumous album. Four of the seven legitimate songs on Michael (Hold My Hand, Hollywood Tonight, The Way You Love Me, Best of Joy) were all on Michael's radar during the final month of his life. The Way You Love Me was actually one of the last songs producer Neff-U worked on in Los Angeles in the days before Michael passed.

Also, many of the songs found on those lists don't have enough vocals to be released, if they have any vocals at all. They obviously wouldn't want to risk putting them all out at once.

For stuff like "Hold My Hand" which seems to be finished, just put it on the album. For things like "Hollywood Tonight", "Beautiful Girl", "The Way You Love Me", and whatever else, you take the song at the point it was left at. So if you had "Hollywood Tonight" as we heard it on the leak, mix it, master it and put it out. Same with "Beautiful Girl" and "The Way You Love Me", use the versions from The Ultimate Collection if he hadn't actually worked on new versions. These are songs that he wanted to use, and instead of having someone like Teddy Riley (who had nothing to do with these songs) coming in a remixing and reproducing, you'd release it to the public with the understanding that these songs were just part of Michael's vision, and while we're not sure what he would have done, we're not gonna second guess him and therefore will give you an approximation.

Uh... no.

This concept would work for a box set a la The Ultimate Collection. But when a studio album is released, people go in expecting to hear fully fleshed out, completed songs, and don't bother to read the liner notes. (I have never met a single person who is as interested in reading an album booklet as I am.) If the estate put Hollywood Tonight on the album in its original state, all anyone would be able to say is, "This sounds unfinished." Why would you want Michael's work presented that way?

For a studio album, completing the songs posthumously is necessary. It should be done respectfully, as Hold My Hand was, but it needs to be done.

I also think it's unfair that I had to purchase a version with all the Timbaland remixes and whatnot to get them. The Estate needs to understand that Michael wasn't a fan of remixes of his stuff in the first place (everybody conveniently seems to forget this), and that his unreleased work is what it is, and will probably not be a huge hit. Usually dead people don't have huge hit songs five years after their death.

This is a major over exaggeration that all fans seem to buy into. The idea that "Michael didn't like remixes" comes into question when you realize that Michael handpicked producers to remix songs for Blood on the Dance Floor after Sony encouraged him to do so, and approved the final mixes. He did the same for Thriller 25, though the concept of including remixes were mostly his idea and, again, he oversaw and agreed to every single mix submitted. Michael did not hate remixes.

Also, that's false. Jimi Hendrix's most recent album, People, Hell and Angels reached number two in the United States just last year, and he's been dead since 1970. That's a 44 year difference.

While I like the version of "The Way You Love Me", it's still nothing more than a remix to me since we have the original version on The Ultimate Collection and unless they have proof that Michael was working on the second version before he died, it's not as useful to me.

Now see, you say this, yet earlier in your post you say that the estate should just released the Ultimate Collection versions if new mixes didn't exist. A bit of backtracking?

Also, Michael was working on The Way You Love Me extensively at the time of his death. Neff-U was producing a brand new version of it in Los Angeles just days before Michael passed. This fact has been confirmed by Joe Vogel in his book, as well as Neff-U himself.

 

[AlwaysThere]

So to start off, it seems obvious to me that the Estate should have used the first posthumous album to be an approximation of what could've been Michael's next album using handwritten notes, things he told collaborators, etc. It's obvious looking at those sheets he had hanging in house with all the songs listed that he had some idea of what he wanted to be working on. So obviously wouldn't it have been smart for the Estate to use those lists (or others if they existed) to fashion an album (or possibly even more than one album).

The estate, matter of fact, did approximate Michael's wishes with the first posthumous album. Four of the seven legitimate songs on Michael (Hold My Hand, Hollywood Tonight, The Way You Love Me, Best of Joy) were all on Michael's radar during the final month of his life. The Way You Love Me was actually one of the last songs producer Neff-U worked on in Los Angeles in the days before Michael passed.

Also, many of the songs found on those lists don't have enough vocals to be released, if they have any vocals at all. They obviously wouldn't want to risk putting them all out at once.

For stuff like "Hold My Hand" which seems to be finished, just put it on the album. For things like "Hollywood Tonight", "Beautiful Girl", "The Way You Love Me", and whatever else, you take the song at the point it was left at. So if you had "Hollywood Tonight" as we heard it on the leak, mix it, master it and put it out. Same with "Beautiful Girl" and "The Way You Love Me", use the versions from The Ultimate Collection if he hadn't actually worked on new versions. These are songs that he wanted to use, and instead of having someone like Teddy Riley (who had nothing to do with these songs) coming in a remixing and reproducing, you'd release it to the public with the understanding that these songs were just part of Michael's vision, and while we're not sure what he would have done, we're not gonna second guess him and therefore will give you an approximation.

Uh... no.

This concept would work for a box set a la The Ultimate Collection. But when a studio album is released, people go in expecting to hear fully fleshed out, completed songs, and don't bother to read the liner notes. (I have never met a single person who is as interested in reading an album booklet as I am.) If the estate put Hollywood Tonight on the album in its original state, all anyone would be able to say is, "This sounds unfinished." Why would you want Michael's work presented that way?

For a studio album, completing the songs posthumously is necessary. It should be done respectfully, as Hold My Hand was, but it needs to be done.

I also think it's unfair that I had to purchase a version with all the Timbaland remixes and whatnot to get them. The Estate needs to understand that Michael wasn't a fan of remixes of his stuff in the first place (everybody conveniently seems to forget this), and that his unreleased work is what it is, and will probably not be a huge hit. Usually dead people don't have huge hit songs five years after their death.

This is a major over exaggeration that all fans seem to buy into. The idea that "Michael didn't like remixes" comes into question when you realize that Michael handpicked producers to remix songs for Blood on the Dance Floor after Sony encouraged him to do so, and approved the final mixes. He did the same for Thriller 25, though the concept of including remixes were mostly his idea and, again, he oversaw and agreed to every single mix submitted. Michael did not hate remixes.

Also, that's false. Jimi Hendrix's most recent album, People, Hell and Angels reached number two in the United States just last year, and he's been dead since 1970. That's a 44 year difference.

While I like the version of "The Way You Love Me", it's still nothing more than a remix to me since we have the original version on The Ultimate Collection and unless they have proof that Michael was working on the second version before he died, it's not as useful to me.

Now see, you say this, yet earlier in your post you say that the estate should just released the Ultimate Collection versions if new mixes didn't exist. A bit of backtracking?

Also, Michael was working on The Way You Love Me extensively at the time of his death. Neff-U was producing a brand new version of it in Los Angeles just days before Michael passed. This fact has been confirmed by Joe Vogel in his book, as well as Neff-U himself.

 

[WhoIsIt89]

The estate, matter of fact, did approximate Michael's wishes with the first posthumous album. Four of the seven legitimate songs on Michael (Hold My Hand, Hollywood Tonight, The Way You Love Me, Best of Joy) were all on Michael's radar during the final month of his life. The Way You Love Me was actually one of the last songs producer Neff-U worked on in Los Angeles in the days before Michael passed.

Also, many of the songs found on those lists don't have enough vocals to be released, if they have any vocals at all. They obviously wouldn't want to risk putting them all out at once.



Uh... no.

This concept would work for a box set a la The Ultimate Collection. But when a studio album is released, people go in expecting to hear fully fleshed out, completed songs, and don't bother to read the liner notes. (I have never met a single person who is as interested in reading an album booklet as I am.) If the estate put Hollywood Tonight on the album in its original state, all anyone would be able to say is, "This sounds unfinished." Why would you want Michael's work presented that way?

For a studio album, completing the songs posthumously is necessary. It should be done respectfully, as Hold My Hand was, but it needs to be done.



This is a major over exaggeration that all fans seem to buy into. The idea that "Michael didn't like remixes" comes into question when you realize that Michael handpicked producers to remix songs for Blood on the Dance Floor after Sony encouraged him to do so, and approved the final mixes. He did the same for Thriller 25, though the concept of including remixes were mostly his idea and, again, he oversaw and agreed to every single mix submitted. Michael did not hate remixes.

Also, that's false. Jimi Hendrix's most recent album, People, Hell and Angels reached number two in the United States just last year, and he's been dead since 1970. That's a 44 year difference.



Now see, you say this, yet earlier in your post you say that the estate should just released the Ultimate Collection versions if new mixes didn't exist. A bit of backtracking?

Also, Michael was working on The Way You Love Me extensively at the time of his death. Neff-U was producing a brand new version of it in Los Angeles just days before Michael passed. This fact has been confirmed by Joe Vogel in his book, as well as Neff-U himself.

For some reason, I'm not convinced you know this for every song on that list Michael left.


As far as what you have to say sweetdudejim, well said and I agree 100%.

 

[AlwaysThere]

For some reason, I'm not convinced you know this for every song on that list Michael left.

This comes directly from the mouth of Joseph Vogel.

 

[SoCav]

Great post, jim!

 

[coffre]

I'd like to see (at least) one final "real" MJ album getting released. With "real" I mean put out untouched tracks that were left > %99 finished. A LP (40 to 45 minutes) could be compiled very easily.

 

[Prince Of Pop]

This is a major over exaggeration that all fans seem to buy into. The idea that "Michael didn't like remixes" comes into question when you realize that Michael handpicked producers to remix songs for Blood on the Dance Floor after Sony encouraged him to do so, and approved the final mixes. He did the same for Thriller 25, though the concept of including remixes were mostly his idea and, again, he oversaw and agreed to every single mix submitted. Michael did not hate remixes..

Yes he did hate remixes..and has been on record saying so. Michael didn't want to do the remixes on BOTDF. The original idea was for the 1st 5 tracks to be released as an EP album. Sony refused and basically forced MJ to do it their way. The remixes were added in order for the album to be released, or no album would have been released.

Thriller 25 was a hot mess. By this time, MJ was following trends instead of setting them like he use to (same problem he had with some of Invincible IMO, but that's a different discussion). I betcha after if was all said and done, and if he was still here with us to talk about it, MJ would admit it was a mistake to ruin T25 with those hideous remixes. The only thing worth a damn on that album was For All Time and Got The Hots.

 

[sweetdudejim]

The estate, matter of fact, did approximate Michael's wishes with the first posthumous album. Four of the seven legitimate songs on Michael (Hold My Hand, Hollywood Tonight, The Way You Love Me, Best of Joy) were all on Michael's radar during the final month of his life. The Way You Love Me was actually one of the last songs producer Neff-U worked on in Los Angeles in the days before Michael passed.

Really, you're gonna say that they approximated his wishes with that Michael album? I mean, besides the fact that three of the songs have nothing to do with Michael and are fraudulent, let's look at the rest. The one's that I will say deserve to be in contention are indeed "Hold My Hand", "Hollywood Tonight", "The Way You Love Me", "Best Of Joy".

By the way, I do know from Joe Vogel's book (along with the lists from Michael's house) that Michael was still working (or planning to work) on "The Way You Love Me". However, do we know that Neff-U was actually working on the new version before Michael died? If this is true, I think it's great and that will give this version a bit more credibility in my eyes. Do you have a source for this information?

However, what on earth did "Behind The Mask" have to do with Michael's vision for a new album around 2009/2010? I'd venture to say nothing. And this is coming from someone who personally loves "Behind The Mask" as done by Eric Clapton and also Greg Phillinganes (as I feel they accurately give a picture of what MJ's version would sound like.

So anyways, let's concentrate on "Behind The Mask" for a second. First, it seems more sensible for a Thriller centered project doesn't it? You know, since it's a Thriller outtake? But whatever, for this album that I guess is supposed to approximate MJ's wishes for a new album would include a remix of "Behind The Mask" (not even the original version). I don't think for a second that Michael was considering revisiting this song, and then for them to not only release it in this context, but release it in that bastardized form is just wrong. John McClain gave it a sub-Dangerous type sound that didn't totally kill it, but it's obvious not what it could be. So yeah, "Behind The Mask" obvious makes no sense on there.

Then you've got "Much Too Soon" and "Another Day". I really like "Much Too Soon" but once again from what we've seen Michael didn't seem to have any interest in pulling this one out of the vaults. Shoulda been saved for a project centered on the HIStory era or something. And then "Another Day", that one was from the Invincible era, and as far as we know, once again MJ didn't seem to want to bring this one back. I do suppose that this one might have been put on the album to clamp down on the bootleg version (just as I think a lot of the stuff on Xscape was released so they could clear the decks of a lot of the stuff that's been bootlegged already).

Also, many of the songs found on those lists don't have enough vocals to be released, if they have any vocals at all. They obviously wouldn't want to risk putting them all out at once.

I'd believe that a lot of that stuff on those list probably weren't close enough to completion to release on a major album. However, I wouldn't doubt that there was probably about 10 songs that were complete enough that they got have cleaned them up a bit, mixed them, mastered them, and them got them out there.

Uh... no.

This concept would work for a box set a la The Ultimate Collection. But when a studio album is released, people go in expecting to hear fully fleshed out, completed songs, and don't bother to read the liner notes. (I have never met a single person who is as interested in reading an album booklet as I am.) If the estate put Hollywood Tonight on the album in its original state, all anyone would be able to say is, "This sounds unfinished." Why would you want Michael's work presented that way?

For a studio album, completing the songs posthumously is necessary. It should be done respectfully, as Hold My Hand was, but it needs to be done.

I'm not saying that they should have put unfinished stuff like "Fall Again" and "In The Back" on these albums. I'm just saying they shouldn't have had Teddy Riley taking over on songs he had jack-shit to do with before. Personally, I do think "Hollywood Tonight" as it stood (at least as far as the leak online sounds) coulda just been cleaned up a bit and released. Obviously some editing would have needed to make it nice, but it still could have retained the essence of what leaked. What leaked was a more minimal, bass driven, funky thing like "Billie Jean" or "Who Is It" and it was turned into a more bombastic thing by Teddy Riley. And I think things will end up this way when they ignore Michael's instructions for the song (as they did for this one). And instead of Teddy Riley for "Hollywood Tonight", here's a thought: how about Brad Buxer!? You know, the guy who co-wrote the song, and could see it to completion closer to MJ's specifications better than a guy who hadn't worked on it before. And also, despite Teddy's great work on Dangerous, he really has proved himself to be pretty pathetic, first of all for either not recognizing that it wasn't Michael or just not caring that it wasn't Michael's vocals for two of the tracks he produced for the Michael album.

But anyways, yeah work needs to be done to finalize what he had in the vault, especially for the stuff from right before he died. If indeed stuff has only one verse or whatever, well then maybe it's better it stays in the vault for now. Either that, or comes out in a "sessions" box set someday. Just please, please no fake engineered "duets". Which I'm sure the Estate is working on right now.

I just hope they take another look at trying to piece together a "final" musical statement from Michael, rather than just throwing things out there willy-nilly, with no regard for what era it's from or what Michael's long term plans for the songs may have been.

 

[sweetdudejim]

Also, that's false. Jimi Hendrix's most recent album, People, Hell and Angels reached number two in the United States just last year, and he's been dead since 1970. That's a 44 year difference.

Actually funny you brought this up. I have the new Jimi album and I'm pretty well versed on Hendrix and his work. First, yes, these ALBUMS can be relatively decent hits, but what I was talking about is MJ's estate thinking that they are gonna get hit singles from this material. And honestly, besides Tupac's "Changes", I really can't think of an instance of an artist who'd been dead for a few years having a hit single. Yes, many right after their death do, but not years after.

Also, funny enough...you know what Jimi Hendrix still has new album's coming out? Because after the first few posthumous Hendrix albums were released, a guy named Alan Douglas was brought in to run Jimi's releases. And what he did was overdub new musicians who had never met or played with Jimi onto a bunch of songs, and then released them on albums like Crash Landing and Midnight Lightning . Only in the '90s did Jimi's half sister get control of his stuff again, and that's why we've seen *new* Hendrix albums like Valleys Of Neptune and whatnot. But if Jimi's catalogue woulda been run better back in the day, I wouldn't doubt that we wouldn't be seeing these new releases now, offering up original versions with original musicians.

While I like the version of "The Way You Love Me", it's still nothing more than a remix to me since we have the original version on The Ultimate Collection and unless they have proof that Michael was working on the second version before he died, it's not as useful to me.

Now see, you say this, yet earlier in your post you say that the estate should just released the Ultimate Collection versions if new mixes didn't exist. A bit of backtracking?

I don't see how I'm backtracking. I think that if newer, Michael Jackson approved versions/mixes existed, then yes, release 'em. All I said was that I think the version of "(I Like) The Way You Love Me" on Michael is good. However, unless there's proof that Michael was aware of this version I still consider the version from The Ultimate Collection definitive. So no, no backtracking there. I'm just saying if there was no work done on the song by/for MJ since The Ultimate Collection then they coulda re-released it as is. Just as, if there was no new recording of "Throwing Your Life Away", they could've included the '80s version on the album since it was obviously in contention this time around, unlike "Behind The Mask" which was inexplicably taken out of the vaults (and even more inexplicably remixed) for the Michael album.

 

[sweetdudejim]

So, I'm kinda bummed I haven't gotten any more responses, especially from AlwaysThere. But regardless, I've went over the thread again, and there were a few other things I'd like to respond to....

For some reason, I'm not convinced you know this for every song on that list Michael left.

This comes directly from the mouth of Joseph Vogel.

So Joe Vogel told you that most of the songs on Michael's lists have little or no vocals? Or is this just something you read and assumed? And just quickly, looking at the the lists, I'm sure the Estate could have gathered at least 10 quality songs with varying sounds that could have formed his first posthumous album. Here goes some, just off the top of my head...."Beautiful Girl", "The Way You Love Me", "The Loser", "Hollywood Tonight", "Hold My Hand", "Best Of Joy", "Scared Of The Moon", "Cheater", and "Throwing Your Life Away". And besides those, I'm assuming that the song with Barry Gibb he refers to is probably "All In Your Name" and that obviously has lyrics too.

However, if Joe Vogel did actually tell you this stuff, what did he say? That hardly any of the songs have vocals? Or just some? A large amount?

I'd like to see (at least) one final "real" MJ album getting released. With "real" I mean put out untouched tracks that were left > %99 finished. A LP (40 to 45 minutes) could be compiled very easily.

I agree for the most part. I'm sure that they could use a lot of stuff as Michael left it, and the parts that need to be "finished", just have the people he actually worked with on those songs work on them and finish them off to the best of their ability. So people like Brad Buxer and the like. You know, instead of Teddy Riley.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I'll be responding to other posts soon. But for now...

So Joe Vogel told you that most of the songs on Michael's lists have little or no vocals? Or is this just something you read and assumed? And just quickly, looking at the the lists, I'm sure the Estate could have gathered at least 10 quality songs with varying sounds that could have formed his first posthumous album. Here goes some, just off the top of my head...."Beautiful Girl", "The Way You Love Me", "The Loser", "Hollywood Tonight", "Hold My Hand", "Best Of Joy", "Scared Of The Moon", "Cheater", and "Throwing Your Life Away". And besides those, I'm assuming that the song with Barry Gibb he refers to is probably "All In Your Name" and that obviously has lyrics too.

However, if Joe Vogel did actually tell you this stuff, what did he say? That hardly any of the songs have vocals? Or just some? A large amount?

Someone on Twitter sometime ago asked Joe Vogel about the list found in Michael's room. I clearly recall his response being, "Most of them don't have vocals." This was speaking of the songs that have not been heard as of yet.

 

[sweetdudejim]

Thanks for responding AlwaysThere. I hope I don't seem argumentative. I'm new to this forum, and I feel you are a very well informed MJ fan with strong opinions, who has also done a lot of research. So I'm enjoying picking your brain. I hope you don't mind.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Thanks for responded AlwaysThere. I hope I don't seem argumentative. I'm new to this forum, and I feel you are a very well informed MJ fan with strong opinions, who has also done a lot of research. So I'm enjoying picking your brain. I hope you don't mind.

Oh no, not at all! I enjoy debates, as sometimes someone else can even offer an opinion that could change my own. I'm not trying to seem argumentative either. It's all out of respect for Michael, after all

 

[sweetdudejim]

Oh no, not at all! I enjoy debates, as sometimes someone else can even offer an opinion that could change my own. I'm not trying to seem argumentative either. It's all out of respect for Michael, after all

Good to hear! I'm still looking forward to your response on this topic. I've been logging on here everyday to say if you have yet, but alas, not. I really am interested.

Also, while we're at it, I'm getting the vibe that despite my hopes, Michael truly didn't record much after Invincible, and that compiling a "final album" would be nearly impossible since he only probably had small handful of things with vocals that were nearly complete. Only things I could think of are "Hold My Hand", "The Loser", "Best Of Joy" and the previously released "The Way You Love Me" and "Beautiful Girl". Maybe there's more in the vaults that's closer to being done, but now that I think of it, why would they use the incomplete "Hollywood Tonight" and a lot of the older stuff on Michael if they had recent stuff that was relatively complete?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Good to hear! I'm still looking forward to your response on this topic. I've been logging on here everyday to say if you have yet, but alas, not. I really am interested.

I will be responding to your post tomorrow! My apologies for the wait.

Also, while we're at it, I'm getting the vibe that despite my hopes, Michael truly didn't record much after Invincible, and that compiling a "final album" would be nearly impossible since he only probably had small handful of things with vocals that were nearly complete. Only things I could think of are "Hold My Hand", "The Loser", "Best Of Joy" and the previously released "The Way You Love Me" and "Beautiful Girl". Maybe there's more in the vaults that's closer to being done, but now that I think of it, why would they use the incomplete "Hollywood Tonight" and a lot of the older stuff on Michael if they had recent stuff that was relatively complete?

This, actually, is a very confusing subject.

As we all know, Michael had a habit of revisiting older unpublished material for newer albums, which was pervasive in his final years. Between 2006 and 2009, Michael and his collaborators revisited dozens of older demos from as early as the Thriller sessions. Songs like A Place With No Name, She Was Loving Me, I Was the Loser, Hold My Hand and Throwing Your Life Away (all of which feature complete vocals) were all on his radar at the time of his death.

If the estate wants to truly approximate on the album he would have made, they should include not only songs that were recorded in his final years, but songs that were worked on in general during that time.

 

[HIStory]

Oh yes, Michael wasn't a fan of remixes... which is why he released a whole album of remixes (BOTDF). I am so sick of fans thinking they know Michael and know what he would or would not have wanted.

While I agree that no one can tell what Michael would want, but it's true he said he did not like remixes:

B&W: What do you think of the remixes they did of your songs?
M: The least I can say is that I don't like them...I don't like it that they come in and change my songs completely. But Sony says that the kids love remixes...

B&W: That is not true! The kids don't love the remixes that much, especially those on BOTDF!
M: I knew it! I was sure!
Throwing a fist in the air, then he shakes his head sighing

http://maljas.republika.pl/wywiady/bw.html

Of course, that didn't stop him from releasing Thriller 25 or BOTDF, so it's one thing if he didn't like them personally, but he was sure ready to release them nevertheless if he felt it was commercially required.

 

[Birchey]

I think people need to remember, the content on BOTDF and Thriller 25 was remixes from previously released material, not "fresh" music and Michaels hand was forced by Sony somewhat.

 

[HIStory]

I think people need to remember, the content on BOTDF and Thriller 25 was remixes from previously released material, not "fresh" music and Michaels hand was forced by Sony somewhat.

People also need to remember that Michael is dead now. That is pretty much a game changer.

 

[Birchey]

People also need to remember that Michael is dead now. That is pretty much a game changer.

Not so much of a game changer as some people think, Michael left blueprints, handwritten notes and audio instructions which could be used to finish his songs, there is also the fact that a lot of people who lent their talents to his music are still alive, willing to finish the songs as Michael wanted them, but they are being sidelined for more "current" producers.There is no need to remix alot of his music.

 

[HIStory]

Not so much of a game changer as some people think, Michael left blueprints, handwritten notes and audio instructions which could be used to finish his songs, there is also the fact that a lot of people who lent their talents to his music are still alive, willing to finish the songs as Michael wanted them, but they are being sidelined for more "current" producers.There is no need to remix alot of his music.

I would not have anything against using collaborators who actually worked on those songs with Michael, but that in itself isn't a guarantee. Remember Teddy Riley on the Michael album? Or Lenny Kravitz on the Michael album? Neff-U was OK, but overall that album was a disaster and they did use some of Michael's original collaborators.

Whichever way someone finished a song there would always be a question mark about whether Michael had finished it that way, no matter what. That's why eventually it's always only the demos/Michael's originals which we can claim to be authentic. To me as long as they include those originals, like they did on Xscape, it's OK to do remixes. You just have to take them for what they are and not pretend they are or should be like original MJ songs.

 

[Birchey]

I would not have anything against using collaborators who actually worked on those songs with Michael, but that in itself isn't a guarantee. Remember Teddy Riley on the Michael album? Or Lenny Kravitz on the Michael album? Neff-U was OK, but overall that album was a disaster and they did use some of Michael's original collaborators.

Whichever way someone finished a song there would always be a question mark about whether Michael had finished it that way, no matter what. That's why eventually it's always only the demos/Michael's originals which we can claim to be authentic. To me as long as they include those originals, like they did on Xscape, it's OK to do remixes. You just have to take them for what they are and not pretend they are or should be like original MJ songs.

Teddy Riley was chosen for Hollywood Tonight, yet previously he never touched the song. That was a bad choice and after hearing the demo we can all see it was a wasted oppurtunity, MP and BB should have finished that song. The Michael album was rushed, the main goal of it was to give everyone a payday and to shut the people up who were banging on about having MJ tracks.

I am okay with a remix album, but if they want to do it, remix previously released material. Presenting "new" material remixed as "The album Michael would have wanted" is not okay, and clearly using a DVD on the release to push the remixes over Michaels original versions is not okay either. If they want to finish the songs, use the damn stuff MJ left behind instead of deleting all of his work. Each one of these BS releases is a wasted oppurtunity, we won't ever get these great songs released again and its not worth completly killing Michaels work in order to have MJ in the charts for a week.

 

[HIStory]

we won't ever get these great songs released again

You can't tell that. In 20 years they might release them again contemporarized to that era's sound. ;D

Like I said, to me the only authentic version is how Michael left it, anyway - and we got those versions as well. No matter who finishes an unfinished song that is not authentic anymore.

 

[sweetdudejim]

Like I said, to me the only authentic version is how Michael left it, anyway - and we got those versions as well. No matter who finishes an unfinished song that is not authentic anymore.

We didn't get the authentic versions for "This Is It", "Hollywood Tonight", "Another Day", "Behind The Mask" or "Much Too Soon". Especially "Behind The Mask", it obviously was not supposed to sound the way it sounded on Michael.

 

[HIStory]

We didn't get the authentic versions for "This Is It", "Hollywood Tonight", "Another Day", "Behind The Mask" or "Much Too Soon". Especially "Behind The Mask", it obviously was not supposed to sound the way it sounded on Michael.

I agree, but I meant the demos/originals that we got on Xscape (though some say even those might have been slightly manipulated).

 

[Creamcakes]

The Estate really has failed in giving us an adequate follow-up to Invincible. What they should have done was put out a posthumous compilation mainly consisting of tracks Michael recorded after Invincible's release. If there weren't enough complete songs from that era, then they should have also used outtakes from Invincible. An album intended to be a follow-up to Invincible should at the very least sound similar to it and consistent, which can be accomplished using its outtakes. When you're using outtakes from more than one album, however, there's a high chance the compilation will sound inconsistent and more like a collection of songs randomly put together than a legitimate album. Michael suffered from both this and having tracks that clearly weren't Michael singing. Xscape doesn't sound as inconsistent as its remixed tracks do sound similar to one another, but the remixes sound so different to their original forms to the point where they sound very artificial and unnatural. You shouldn't have to alter a random selection of songs to make a consistent album.

 

[sweetdudejim]

The Estate really has failed in giving us an adequate follow-up to Invincible. What they should have done was put out a posthumous compilation mainly consisting of tracks Michael recorded after Invincible's release. If there weren't enough complete songs from that era, then they should have also used outtakes from Invincible. An album intended to be a follow-up to Invincible should at the very least sound similar to it and consistent, which can be accomplished using its outtakes. When you're using outtakes from more than one album, however, there's a high chance the compilation will sound inconsistent and more like a collection of songs randomly put together than a legitimate album. Michael suffered from both this and having tracks that clearly weren't Michael singing. Xscape doesn't sound as inconsistent as its remixed tracks do sound similar to one another, but the remixes sound so different to their original forms to the point where they sound very artificial and unnatural. You shouldn't have to alter a random selection of songs to make a consistent album.

I agree that what they really shoulda started off with was a compilation of the best of his latest recordings, preferably 2002 through 2009. I'd like to hope that there are enough reasonably "finished" songs in the can from this period that they could do it, but possibly not. Originally I presumed that Michael was in the studio quite a bit during those years, but now I'm not so sure. Or possibly that a lot of songs might be in the same state of "Days in Gloucestershire", where you have maybe a chorus and some scatting on the verses.

However, if there wasn't enough material they could have things like the new version of "Throwing Your Life Away" than I'm pretty sure Neff-U did before Michael passed away. And of course they could've used "The Way You Love Me" and "Beautiful Girl" especially if they had newer, different versions that MJ had worked on.

And to AlwaysThere, I'm still waiting on your reply!!