Hot Take: Signing with Sony was the worst thing to ever happen to Michael

[IhateTheMedia]

The damage Sony did to Michael in regards to basically everything following Dangerous, not to mention Invincible. From 1995-2001 he was always struggling to battle with his record company, the Martin Bashir documentary has done more to damage his image than any other incident and you can argue that this was attributed to Michael's struggling sales with Invincible which were a result of Sony wanting to micromanage it, and a power struggle that lead to Michael getting shafted. They screwed him over so badly it's honestly depressing.

 

[R1chard]

But without the success of Thriller and Bad, MJ would always have been a forgotten 70s child star.

Stop being bitter that MJ made a bad final album.

 

[analogue]

Sony should have done more, but Michael didn't do a lot to promote Invincible either. He did an interview on MTV's TRL, did an autograph signing at HMV and performed You Rock My World at the 30th Anniversary Shows, which looked really slopperly put together. That was it as far as I know.

Now compare that with what Michael did to promote the HIStory album. We had the giant statues, the tour, the short films, Michael performing songs from the album (Earth Song and You Are Not Alone) at multiple Television apperances and award shows.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Regarding the 'HIStory' era, Sony Music spent the lion's share of their money on the production and promotion of that album (for example, 'Scream' was generally the most expensive music video of all time when it was released).

Also, Michael Jackson's struggling sales with the 'Invincible' album was mostly a result of Michael Jackson himself, not of Sony Music.

Sony Music did pay a lot of money for the production of that album, but the singer was invisible during many sessions.

As a result, the record company from a certain point onwards understandably decided to stop wasting their money on the production of the 'Invincible' album.

in the early '00s, Michael Jackson was beginning to lose his marbles, and that also did have an adverse effect on his career.

 

[SeriousFX]

But without the success of Thriller and Bad, MJ would always have been a forgotten 70s child star.

Stop being bitter that MJ made a bad final album.

Those albums were before Sony, though.

 

[Andymachine]

Regarding the 'HIStory' era, Sony Music spent the lion's share of their money on the production and promotion of that album (for example, 'Scream' was generally the most expensive music video of all time when it was released).

Also, Michael Jackson's struggling sales with the 'Invincible' album was mostly a result of Michael Jackson himself, not of Sony Music.

Sony Music did pay a lot of money for the production of that album, but the singer was invisible during many sessions.

As a result, the record company from a certain point onwards understandably decided to stop wasting their money on the production of the 'Invincible' album.

in the early '00s, Michael Jackson was beginning to lose his marbles, and that also did have an adverse effect on his career.

That last comment was uncalled for . Of course he was beginning to struggle. He was struggling since 1988 after the UK Tabloids utterly went for him with a passion. However you are correct about Sony paying a lot of money in "certain " circumstances. Invincible was not one of them however , that was not a particularly great album anyways also by 2001 things had changed in a lot of ways since his hay day in the early 80s. A lot of people and correctly so say MJ moved with the times and sometimes ahead of them and he WAS . However by that stage it was like rinse and repeat but after performing since the age of 5 and being an innovator until perhaps 1991 can you blame him for churning out "mediocre" stuff , which was still better than most were doing then.

 

[R1chard]

Those albums were before Sony, though.

Huh? Columbia, Epic, CBS and Sony are all the same thing. From Off The Wall onwards, MJ was signed to Sony.

Sony is the reason MJ became a megastar.

Now compare that with what Michael did to promote the HIStory album. We had the giant statues, the tour, the short films, Michael performing songs from the album (Earth Song and You Are Not Alone) at multiple Television apperances and award shows.

Michael? Don't Sony get any credit?!

Let's remember what a billion dollar record company actually does.

 

[Andymachine]

Huh? Columbia, Epic, CBS and Sony are all the same thing. From Off The Wall onwards, MJ was signed to Sony.

Sony is the reason MJ became a megastar.


Michael? Don't Sony get any credit?!

Let's remember what a billion dollar record company actually does.

Lol you think Sony is the reason MJ became a star. Seriously man do your research or at least know who you are talking about.

 

[SeriousFX]

Huh? Columbia, Epic, CBS and Sony are all the same thing. From Off The Wall onwards, MJ was signed to Sony.

Sony is the reason MJ became a megastar.


Michael? Don't Sony get any credit?!

Let's remember what a billion dollar record company actually does.

But the thread says "Signing with Sony was the worst thing to ever happen to Michael." It's made blatantly clear that he's talking about the 1991 deal with Sony Music, not the deal with CBS Records from two decades prior.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

To his career maybe.

 

[R1chard]

Lol you think Sony is the reason MJ became a star. Seriously man do your research or at least know who you are talking about.

Huh? Stuff like Ben and GTBT were modest hits, but Forever Michael vanished off the radar, same with more than half the J5 albums. Especially if you consider their lack of major success internationally.

Don't you get the irony of saying Invincible failed due to a lack of promotion, and then claiming promotion had nothing to do with the earlier success?

I repeat, Sony is who established OTW, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous and huge worldwide hits. Same for Blame It On The Boogie and Can You Feel It.

But the thread says "Signing with Sony was the worst thing to ever happen to Michael." It's made blatantly clear that he's talking about the 1991 deal with Sony Music, not the deal with CBS Records from two decades prior.

I don't see the distinction. MJ only had 2 record labels: Motown and Sony.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

But without the success of Thriller and Bad, MJ would always have been a forgotten 70s child star.

Stop being bitter that MJ made a bad final album.

Off The Wall and The Jackson's work all put MJ in the top billing of music. You sound ridiculous, as usual.

 

[IhateTheMedia]

But without the success of Thriller and Bad, MJ would always have been a forgotten 70s child star.

Stop being bitter that MJ made a bad final album.

Michael worked with CBS during the 80s, Invincible sold 3 million in it's first 5 days without any promotion from Sony and would have had 20 million easily if they weren't undercutting him. Michael's popularity never left, he was always bigger than anyone else on the planet and his fans didn't go away. His heart wasn't into Invincible, but that's due to Sony fucking him over constantly resulting in production being stalled.

 

[GGC]

Huh? Stuff like Ben and GTBT were modest hits, but Forever Michael vanished off the radar, same with more than half the J5 albums. Especially if you consider their lack of major success internationally.

Don't you get the irony of saying Invincible failed due to a lack of promotion, and then claiming promotion had nothing to do with the earlier success?

I repeat, Sony is who established OTW, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous and huge worldwide hits. Same for Blame It On The Boogie and Can You Feel It.


I don't see the distinction. MJ only had 2 record labels: Motown and Sony.

I agree with the modest hits part. The entire Got To Be There album was pretty big, but Ben only had one hit song, and the album itself was released when the Jacksons were beginning to slow down in sales. I would say that Forever Michael didn't vanish off the radar first, but Music and Me (1973) did. It wasn't until the Destiny Album that the Jacksons returned to the top with "Shake Your Body," which is when they were 100% with Sony. Promotion is crucial, as Sony had the vision of long-term and worldwide success instead of just focusing on the U.S.

Your comment is also facts because if you look at the chart data of "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough," compared to all of the previous Jackson 5 songs/albums and early solo songs/albums, those weren't nearly as big worldwide compared to the rest of his career.

 

[IhateTheMedia]

I agree with the modest hits part. The entire Got To Be There album was pretty big, but Ben only had one hit song, and the album itself was released when the Jacksons were beginning to slow down in sales. I would say that Forever Michael didn't vanish off the radar first, but Music and Me (1973) did. It wasn't until the Destiny Album that the Jacksons returned to the top with "Shake Your Body," which is when they were 100% with Sony. Promotion is crucial, as Sony had the vision of long-term and worldwide success instead of just focusing on the U.S.

Your comment is also facts because if you look at the chart data of "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough," compared to all of the previous Jackson 5 songs/albums and early solo songs/albums, those weren't nearly as big worldwide compared to the rest of his career.

Michael sold around 20 million from his motown albums, we don't have information for much of his singles but he sold at least 12 million from a couple of them. Off the Wall ended up outselling of those Motown albums by itself, so yeah it's a huge leap but still his Motown albums were selling comparatively to any Beatles album outside of Abbey Road / Sgt Peppers

 

[Hot_Street]

I can't say the $890 million deal with Sony hurt his art, considering his music since Dangerous: Black or White, Who Is It, Give In to Me, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Blood on the Dance Floor, You Rock My World, Whatever Happens - that's pretty good, I think.

 

[GGC]

Michael sold around 20 million from his motown albums, we don't have information for much of his singles but he sold at least 12 million from a couple of them. Off the Wall ended up outselling of those Motown albums by itself, so yeah it's a huge leap but still his Motown albums were selling comparatively to any Beatles album outside of Abbey Road / Sgt Peppers

Yeah i agree. I wish that one day we get the official numbers for all of the Motown work but I think I remember someone saying it was cause Motown didn't want to pay for the certifications. Because by now I'm pretty sure "I Want You Back", and "ABC" and some of their other songs are at least platinum or above.

 

[IhateTheMedia]

I can't say the $890 million deal with Sony hurt his art, considering his music since Dangerous: Black or White, Who Is It, Give In to Me, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Blood on the Dance Floor, You Rock My World, Whatever Happens - that's pretty good, I think.

I wasn't talking about Art, Michael is the GOAT so he's always going to put out the best music. Commercially and personally i think he fucked up by signing with Sony.

 

[IhateTheMedia]

Yeah i agree. I wish that one day we get the official numbers for all of the Motown work but I think I remember someone saying it was cause Motown didn't want to pay for the certifications. Because by now I'm pretty sure "I Want You Back", and "ABC" and some of their other songs are at least platinum or above.

He released 14 singles under Motown, we have WW sales for only 4 of them. From his debut singles alone he sold over 8 million units.

 

[GGC]

I can't say the $890 million deal with Sony hurt his art, considering his music since Dangerous: Black or White, Who Is It, Give In to Me, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Blood on the Dance Floor, You Rock My World, Whatever Happens - that's pretty good, I think.

I would even add "Dangerous." It's seven minutes long, but the beat and overall vibe of that song just hit so hard. I would have loved to hear an official radio edit if it ever got released as a single in 1994.

 

[Piek]

But the thread says "Signing with Sony was the worst thing to ever happen to Michael." It's made blatantly clear that he's talking about the 1991 deal with Sony Music, not the deal with CBS Records from two decades prior.

Sony bought CBS. Michael was actually staying with the same record company.

 

[SeriousFX]

Sony bought CBS. Michael was actually staying with the same record company.

Okay, lemme clarify this further: the 1991 deal was a contract re-negotiation, with different writers and involved lawyers than the previous contracts. I will admit the title should've been "HOT TAKE: the 1991 deal ruined Michael's career," but other than that, it's all I have in the way of criticism.

 

[Zeus 7]

But without the success of Thriller and Bad, MJ would always have been a forgotten 70s child star.

Stop being bitter that MJ made a bad final album.

Michael had a fantastic career with the Jacksons, then a block buster release with OTW, what are you talking about lol? You randomly throw in if he didn't have the biggest selling album ever or its follow up he'd have been a has been? Lmao!!

 

[R1chard]

Michael worked with CBS during the 80s, Invincible sold 3 million in it's first 5 days

Wait, are you trying to say Invincible sold a lot? Or didn't sell many? Make up your mind and we can talk.

would have had 20 million easily if they weren't undercutting him

Blindly speculating like this is just silly. You have absolutely no grounds to assume Invincible would overtake Dangerous and go on to be something like the 10th best selling album of all time. Jesus fucking Christ.

Michael's popularity never left, he was always bigger than anyone else on the planet and his fans didn't go away. His heart wasn't into Invincible, but that's due to Sony fucking him over constantly resulting in production being stalled.

You realize it's in Sony's interests for Invincible to sell a lot of copies, right?

I agree with the modest hits part. The entire Got To Be There album was pretty big, but Ben only had one hit song, and the album itself was released when the Jacksons were beginning to slow down in sales. I would say that Forever Michael didn't vanish off the radar first, but Music and Me (1973) did. It wasn't until the Destiny Album that the Jacksons returned to the top with "Shake Your Body," which is when they were 100% with Sony.

Exactly. With only one exception (Ben in USA), MJ never had any solo album in the top 10 of any chart, anywhere in the world. A lot of the time they didn't make the top 100.

Similarly, of the 10 J5 albums, most did not make the top 10 in any country in the world.

Then he joined Sony and, as we all know, the hits came thick and fast. Hmm, I wonder if there's a connection?

Promotion is crucial, as Sony had the vision of long-term and worldwide success instead of just focusing on the U.S.

Exactly. There are three main factors to have success.

1. Promotion
2. Luck
3. Talent

Promotion is by far the most important, with luck being second.

We must not kid ourselves that Thriller would have been as big if it was released on Motown.

Your comment is also facts because if you look at the chart data of "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough," compared to all of the previous Jackson 5 songs/albums and early solo songs/albums, those weren't nearly as big worldwide compared to the rest of his career.

I think TC is so busy hating on everything that he doesn't stop to take anything in.

his Motown albums were selling comparatively to any Beatles album outside of Abbey Road / Sgt Peppers

Please man... You gotta stop saying stuff like this. Sales for everything on Motown were mediocre.

Not being certified for 5 million copies means that something did not sell 5 million copies. You can't just say "It's not certified, so it must be 10 million".

Sony bought CBS. Michael was actually staying with the same record company.

That's what I've been trying to tell him.

Michael had a fantastic career with the Jacksons, then a block buster release with OTW, what are you talking about lol? You randomly throw in if he didn't have the biggest selling album ever or its follow up he'd have been a has been? Lmao!!

Meaning they did ok. They just did ok. Couple of number one singles and that's it. To date, there have been 1,170 number ones, so it's not a very exclusive club.

They weren't the biggest band in history or anything. The sales really do speak for themselves.

 

[Hot_Street]

Exactly. There are three main factors to have success.

1. Promotion
2. Luck
3. Talent

Promotion is by far the most important, with luck being second.

Invincible only had talent. That's why it didn't sell.
And isn't it ironic? Don't you think?

 

[IhateTheMedia]

Wait, are you trying to say Invincible sold a lot? Or didn't sell many? Make up your mind and we can talk.


Blindly speculating like this is just silly. You have absolutely no grounds to assume Invincible would overtake Dangerous and go on to be something like the 10th best selling album of all time. Jesus fucking Christ.


You realize it's in Sony's interests for Invincible to sell a lot of copies, right?


Exactly. With only one exception (Ben in USA), MJ never had any solo album in the top 10 of any chart, anywhere in the world. A lot of the time they didn't make the top 100.

Similarly, of the 10 J5 albums, most did not make the top 10 in any country in the world.

Then he joined Sony and, as we all know, the hits came thick and fast. Hmm, I wonder if there's a connection?


Exactly. There are three main factors to have success.

1. Promotion
2. Luck
3. Talent

Promotion is by far the most important, with luck being second.

We must not kid ourselves that Thriller would have been as big if it was released on Motown.


I think TC is so busy hating on everything that he doesn't stop to take anything in.


Please man... You gotta stop saying stuff like this. Sales for everything on Motown were mediocre.

Not being certified for 5 million copies means that something did not sell 5 million copies. You can't just say "It's not certified, so it must be 10 million".


That's what I've been trying to tell him.


Meaning they did ok. They just did ok. Couple of number one singles and that's it. To date, there have been 1,170 number ones, so it's not a very exclusive club.

They weren't the biggest band in history or anything. The sales really do speak for themselves.

Michael sold over 30 million records with Motown. The Jackson 5 sold over 100 million by the release of Thriller and ended the decade with 10 million records during the timeframe. The IFPI reported in 2006 that the group had album & single sales of 150 million worldwide to date, on a list where Michael Jackson was ranked second in all-time sales with 350 million behind The Beatles (400 million) and far above Elvis which collaborates the 2000 World Music Awards where the IFPI gave him award declaring him the "Best selling artist of all time" as he had already outsold Elvis and with his group sales included outsold the Beatles too.

Sony during that period gave him a plaque signifying sales of over 500 million and being the highest selling artist of all tme, now at first this doesn't make sense and seems inflated. However it can easily be rationalized by simply adding his listed individual sales with the group sales (350m + 150m = 500 million) since those sales don't include DVD or VHS the actual figure would be around 520m.

The Beatles around the same time were claimed to have sold 500 million as well, even though the IFPI's alleged list had them at 400 million. You can get that number by adding together what that same list had Lennon and Paul [400m (Beatles) + 75m (McCartney) + 40m (Lennon) = 515 Million Beatles Records sold]

So basically, the reports were true. The Jackson 5 did sell well over 100 million and Michael did sell considerably well under Motown.

Pictured as you can see, Michael's plaque stating "An Epic in-house presentation award presented to Michael Jackson as the highest selling recording artist of all time for selling more than 500 million. The albums represented on the award are Off the Wall (1979), Thriller (1982), Bad (1987), Dangerous (1991), HIStory (1995), and Invincible (2001)". As it was presented to him personally it means he was alive when recieving the award

 

[IhateTheMedia]

You can also claim that the Jackson 5's sales were inflated by combining Michael's 30m solo records when he was a member of the group. Meaning that the group actually sold 120 million instead. This is also a plausible argument that would be believable. However that would mean MJ is being short changed on about 30 million since he's not credited for several albums and singles.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

I'm not rooting for anybody here. Garbage vs trash

 

[R1chard]

Oh, so this is just a continuation of your thread on the Wikipedia list of "biggest selling artists of all time"? Yawn. That doesn't matter. You're way too obsessed with these awards.

I'm out.