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Help in understanding the Sony/ATV Publishing merger better

elmari

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So everytime I read a post by RASTAPASTA, I see his/her signature which seems to be comments about the SONY/ATV catalog merger. After, reading some of the conspiracy theories concerning this catalog and knowing that Michael had protested against Sony in 2001, I wanted to know more information.

First I was worried that Mijac publishing had been included in the deal, but found out that it was thankfully left out. Michael Jackson's songs should stay with his family forever!

So Sony paid Michael $90 million in 1995 for 50% of the ATV catalog. It was then merged with Sony's publishing catalog and is now the third largest song publishing catalog in existence. OK, Sony paid Michael $90 million, but Michael owns 50% of the merged Sony/ATV catalog? Branca must have worked out some kind of deal with Sony because it doesn't quite make sense to me.

So then I remember reading in various articles that Michael used the Beatles catalog as collateral when he needed multi-million dollar loans. Is that the case here? Was the $90 million a 'loan' disguised as a deal?

Also, just by reading the comments in the threads I picked up something like there is a specific year/date where Sony can exercise the option to buy out Michael's share of the catalog. Is this true and if it is, does the estate have the option to refuse the offer?

After checking out some wikipedia articles on the catalog, I found a list of the artists under Sony/ATV and it is freaking unbelievable! Michael owns 50% publishing rights of the most popular artists of the past and of the present!!

These include: Akon, 50 cent, Babyface, Backstreet Boys, Beck, Beyonce, Black Eyed Peas, Bob Dylan, Bon Jovi, Boyz II Men, Brenda Lee, Bruce Springsteen, Bryan Adams, Celine Dion, Cher, Christina Aguilera, Coldplay, Conway Twitty, Cyndi Lauper, David Crosby, Def Leppard, Destiny's Child, Dixie Chicks, Elvis Presley, Erasure, Fall out Boy, Faith Holl, Flo Rida, George Michael, Girls Aloud, Gwen Stefani, Hank Williams, Hilary Duff, James Brown, James Morrison, Jay Z, Jennifer Lopez, Jimi Hendrix, John Legend, John Mayer, Jonas Brothers, Joni Mitchell, Kylie Minogue, Lady Gaga, Little Richard, Linkin Park, Mariah Carey, Marc Anthony, Mary J. Blige, Miles Davis, Ne-Yo, Neil Diamond, Oasis, Pearl Jam, Pink, Pussycat Dolls, R.Kelly, Reba McEntire, Ricky Martin, Rihanna, Robert Plant, Roy Orbison, Santana, Sarah MacLachlan, Shakira, Snoop Dog, Stevie Nicks, Taylor Swift, The Beatles, The Everly Brothers, Tim McGraw, Tom Jones, UB40, Wyclef Jean, Whitney Houston, Will Smith, and Willie Nelson!!!!!!!

See whole list of artists here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sony/ATV_Music_Publishing_artists


Sony/ATV publishing owns and administers more than 500,000 song copyrights.


I hear a bunch of these artists on the radio all the time, see their music being used everywhere. . . and Michael gets paid a certain percentage (I think 25% now) everytime a song by an artist listed above gets used!!!! His debt is going to get paid with a snap of the fingers!!!

Anyways, I just hope and pray that the merging of this catalog didn't cause certain conspiracies to be brought up against Michael. It's kind of mind-boggling how one person can own 50% of this publishing catalog and the other 50% is owned by a corporation.

Also, could you have imagined if Michael had stayed married to LMP (whose estate owns most of Elvis' catalog) and if Michael had acquired Jobete Music from Berry Gordy (he wanted to buy it but Gordy was not putting it up for sale)???? Michael could have been owner/part-owner of most of the music that was made in the 21st century! Crazy!

On wiki, it says that Thomas Mesereau disclosed that the catalog was worth between $4-5 billion as of 2005. It's been reported more widely to be worth about $1-1.5 billion. Why do I have a feeling that Mesereau's number might be more accurate. . .

In hindsight, do you guys think it was a good decision my Michael to merge his ATV catalog with Sony?????
 
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In hindsight, do you guys think it was a good decision my Michael to merge his ATV catalog with Sony?????
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of course it was. he got paid 90mill to merge and make it into a huge copany he bought it for close to 50 mill and his share is now worth upwards of 1 billion. whether it was good interms of the hassle and the issues of ppl wanting it is another matter


So Sony paid Michael $90 million in 1995 for 50% of the ATV catalog. It was then merged with Sony's publishing catalog and is now the third largest song publishing catalog in existence. OK, Sony paid Michael $90 million, but Michael owns 50% of the merged Sony/ATV catalog? Branca must have worked out some kind of deal with Sony because it doesn't quite make sense to me.
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mj atv cat was worth far more than sonys so they paid him because in the short terms if would have caused mj as loss of revenue. sony were gonna make big money more than they would make off their own cat so of course they had to pay mj for that
 
thnis is very interesting subject. I'd like to read more if someone can explain how it works
 
There is no way that Michael can lost his 50% share in atv catalogue right?

I have been doing alot of research into ths and is there any way that 50% that michael owns can be taken from say sony? His lawyer who worked in getting him the deal was ALSO working for sony..hmmm..So is there any forseeable way of him losting this ownership?


For a number of years, Sony had been pushing to buy all of Jackson's share in their music catalog venture. If Jackson's career or financial situation were to deteriorate, he would have to sell his catalog. Thus, Sony had something to gain from Jackson's career failing.[104] Jackson was able to use these conflicts as leverage to exit his contract early.[100] Just before the release of Invincible, Jackson informed the head of Sony Music Entertainment, Tommy Mottola, that he was leaving Sony.[100] As a result, all singles releases, video shootings and promotions concerning the Invincible album were canceled. Jackson made allegations in July 2002 that Mottola was a "devil" and a "racist" who did not support his African-American artists, using them merely for his own personal gain.[100] He charged that Mottola had called his colleague Irv Gotti a "fat nigger".[105] Sony disputed claims that they had failed to promote Invincible with sufficient energy, maintaining that Jackson refused to tour in the US.

Thanks, I just really worry Sony played a part in this..all for that catalogue
 
Re: There is no way that Michael can lost his 50% share in atv catalogue right?

Im Sure Braca was one of Michaels lawyers that helped Michael get the catalogue back in the day, He knows how much it means to Mike so I dont expect it to be sold at the renewal, especially considering the money isnt needed now as Michael's estate is in the red and not the black
 
Re: There is no way that Michael can lost his 50% share in atv catalogue right?

His Share is in his estate. The estate holders can do anything they want with the share, however Michael appointed the holders so they would hopefully do everything with Michael in consideration.
 
Re: There is no way that Michael can lost his 50% share in atv catalogue right?

just cleaning up, merging this with the other ongoing ATV thread in here.
 
lilseanb

When is the renewal happening? So the catalogue is part of the estate..and aeg became involved in it..Would it be wrong to suggest a theory that aeg/sony are working together and have been for a while in getting the money from michael..and aeg asking for a estate claim is a way of doing this..sony couldn't intervene, but aeg has made out like it has a right ...hm dodgy
 
Thanks for everyone's comments.

I just have a feeling that this catalog has some kind of role in a lot of the mess that Michael went through in the last 10 years. It's just a hunch though.

The thing that made me suspicious (and I am not 100% sure, but read it in some posts here) is that the option for Sony to buyout Michael's share is sometime in the next few years, if not next year. From a post above, it seems that Sony has been pressuring Michael to sell his share of the catalog for years.

Also, I remember from Farrakhan's speech that 'enemies' will tear you down by first ruining your reputation and then taking your wealth. Michael's reputation has taken a beating for the last 15 years and then how did he get into so much debt if he was getting residuals from the Sony/ATV and the Mijac catalogs? BTW, wiki said that the Mijac catalog is worth $75 million, but I am positive that will increase now in lieu of Michael's passing.

Branca did the ATV deal and he did the Sony merger. . . and then someone above posted that Branca worked for Sony? Maybe this contributed to the firing of Branca in the mid-2000s? Maybe someone told Michael that Branca was on Sony's side.

Just want to say that I hope that Branca is going to do right by Michael and his children. They had a close personal and professional relationship and Michael did trust him with his business affairs. I know that Michael had paranoia about the people who worked for him and he would fire and re-hire at will. Michael even thanks Branca a lot in his album liner notes.

Anyways, the mysteries (and motives) will unfold with time. . .
 
who sees what is unravelling?

There was a push to get some people back into Michael's circle, to control his affairs, specifically Branca and Frank Dileo.

Michael re-appoints Branca a few weeks before he dies - and signs a document giving him control of everything

Michael fires Tohme and appoints Frank as manager - he signs a document putting him on the board of SonyATV


Michael then suddenly passes away.

Now, Branca is forever in control of SonyATV for the next decade till Prince is atleast 18 (and even then, Prince can't do much)

Frank is forever in that position on the board (till Prince turns 18)

Do you guys see what is happening?

If Tohme could keep $5.5 million in cash from residual royalties within one year, what is going to happen when this clique of people are working together to siphon off Michael's wealth?

They will be raking in millions in backhand deals that they do not have to declare to court, such as favouring distributors, promoters for merchandise and all that stuff.

That's why they are trying to keep Katherine away because then they can't make backhand deals if they don't have the final say.

Look at the talk they have?

Klein comes on TV - he insinuates that drug addicts can never be honest

Frank Dileo does an interview - he insinuates drug addicts can never be honest

It's like they are talking from the same script.
And is it a surprise that the media is depicting him that way?

Those who plotted this needed a distraction, and that was to make Michael out as a druggie so that people don't look at those who might have been involved in his murder.

I haven't seen any media outlet discuss any theories as to who might have wanted Michael dead if it's murder.

No media outlet has discussed or aired Michael's fallout with Mottola and Sony.

To the contrary, as soon as Michael passed, Mottola was one of teh first to pay tribute and the media was talking about how they reconciled.

Give me a break. Reconciled when? Michael fell out with Mottola in 2002
2003 to 2005, we all know what was happening.

2005 to 2006, Michael was out of the US.

When he returned, Mottola was no longer in the picture. Where did they meet to reconcile?

And then some talk about how Michael used teh catalogue as leverage.

Have we forgotten how SonyBMG wanted Michael to approve a request that they form a separate catalogue?
Michael seems to have muted that idea, and Sony had no way out.

These are multi-billion dollar corporations that merged into one to form SonyBMG
They see Michael as a stumbling block.

Whose payroll are some in the media, Branca and Dileo on?

Look at Klein initially seconding Debbie to seek custody and fight Katherine.

That would have given them full control of the estate, full control of the two older kids and just a handout to Katherine each month.


There is a lot we will never know till 30 to 40 years from now but what went down is more than just "luck" for this people that Michael "suddenly" passed away, leaving them in control of everything.


Why would the media spend a month on the "drug" stories and totally ignore looking at those other angles?

No one has even covered a story about who stands to profit and lose from Michael's passing.

Just such a story would throw out red flags all over.
 
What has spooked some of the plotters and schemers is the Jacksons' direct attacks on the ring of people around him.

Latoya calling it murder and saying cash went missing - suddenly Tohme returns $5.5million

Katherine Jackson challenging Branca and his circle of relationships - suddenly Branca says SonyATV not for sell

Debbie's friend backstabbing her with fake emails and Hoeflin attacking Klein as being part of those who killed Michael - compromising efforts to engage in a custody battle

The only thing to stop all this is if on Monday Katherine is granted a greater role than she currently has, which would scupper what the schemers put together.

Otherwise, why does Branca estimate the estate at $500 million which would justify selling off some assets with time to pay debts
While Londell estimates the value of the estate at $2 billion, which makes it meaningless to engage in any talk of selling off any assets now or in the future.
 
rsw22- Thank you for your posts.

See that's what I am afraid of. There were just too many shady characters around Michael, too many changes in the last few months, Michael's sudden passing, and now the circus that we are seeing right now. I feel like this catalog might be at the root of all the shadiness.

Mesereau valued the Sony/ATV catalog at $4-5 billion in 2005. Londell is valuing Michael's estate at $2 billion. Then why is Branca undervaluing the estate????

For Michael. . . a man full of love and humanity for the world. . . to be conspired against because of money and greed (which has happened to him many times before) is just so heartbreaking.

Someone within the Jackson family needs to be put on the trustee board. I believe that absolutely no one is to be trusted and I suspect that Michael's family knows more than they've let on.
 
rsw22 said:
who sees what is unravelling?

There was a push to get some people back into Michael's circle, to control his affairs, specifically Branca and Frank Dileo.

Michael re-appoints Branca a few weeks before he dies - and signs a document giving him control of everything

Michael fires Tohme and appoints Frank as manager - he signs a document putting him on the board of SonyATV


Michael then suddenly passes away.

Now, Branca is forever in control of SonyATV for the next decade till Prince is atleast 18 (and even then, Prince can't do much)

Frank is forever in that position on the board (till Prince turns 18)

Do you guys see what is happening?

If Tohme could keep $5.5 million in cash from residual royalties within one year, what is going to happen when this clique of people are working together to siphon off Michael's wealth?

They will be raking in millions in backhand deals that they do not have to declare to court, such as favouring distributors, promoters for merchandise and all that stuff.

That's why they are trying to keep Katherine away because then they can't make backhand deals if they don't have the final say.

Look at the talk they have?

Klein comes on TV - he insinuates that drug addicts can never be honest

Frank Dileo does an interview - he insinuates drug addicts can never be honest

It's like they are talking from the same script.
And is it a surprise that the media is depicting him that way?

Those who plotted this needed a distraction, and that was to make Michael out as a druggie so that people don't look at those who might have been involved in his murder.

I haven't seen any media outlet discuss any theories as to who might have wanted Michael dead if it's murder.

No media outlet has discussed or aired Michael's fallout with Mottola and Sony.

To the contrary, as soon as Michael passed, Mottola was one of teh first to pay tribute and the media was talking about how they reconciled.

Give me a break. Reconciled when? Michael fell out with Mottola in 2002
2003 to 2005, we all know what was happening.

2005 to 2006, Michael was out of the US.

When he returned, Mottola was no longer in the picture. Where did they meet to reconcile?

And then some talk about how Michael used teh catalogue as leverage.

Have we forgotten how SonyBMG wanted Michael to approve a request that they form a separate catalogue?
Michael seems to have muted that idea, and Sony had no way out.

These are multi-billion dollar corporations that merged into one to form SonyBMG
They see Michael as a stumbling block.

Whose payroll are some in the media, Branca and Dileo on?

Look at Klein initially seconding Debbie to seek custody and fight Katherine.

That would have given them full control of the estate, full control of the two older kids and just a handout to Katherine each month.


There is a lot we will never know till 30 to 40 years from now but what went down is more than just "luck" for this people that Michael "suddenly" passed away, leaving them in control of everything.


Why would the media spend a month on the "drug" stories and totally ignore looking at those other angles?

No one has even covered a story about who stands to profit and lose from Michael's passing.

Just such a story would throw out red flags all over.
Click to expand...

GQ might do it :cheeky: look what they did with the Chandlar rubbish, that article was really long and well researched!
 
Thanks guys. :) One of you, or maybe a group of MJ fans could create a Youtube channel and talk about the things the media keeps ignoring.
 
LET'S GET IT DONE LIKE YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!! FOR THE SAKE OF OUR MICHAEL AND HIS BABIES,(LEGACY). THEY WOULD RATHER STRIP HIM OF THAT TOO. PLEASE...





THAnk You :)
 
Hi everyone, first post but I was just wondering, since you all know so much about it (v. interesting, thanks for all the info by the way) could someone please explain to me why mj called Tommy a racist? Like examples of how he treated the black artists differently? There's so much to read and get my head round, it would be great if someone could just explain that to me. Also did Mariah Carey comment on what Mj said about her and Tommy? Thanks, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
 
he thing that made me suspicious (and I am not 100% sure, but read it in some posts here) is that the option for Sony to buyout Michael's share is sometime in the next few years, if not next year. From a post above, it seems that Sony has been pressuring Michael to sell his share of the catalog for years.
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no sony had an option to buy 25% of the cat a year or two ago but that option only lasted a certain amount of time. that time has long since passed
 
rsw22 said:
who sees what is unravelling?

There was a push to get some people back into Michael's circle, to control his affairs, specifically Branca and Frank Dileo.

Michael re-appoints Branca a few weeks before he dies - and signs a document giving him control of everything

Michael fires Tohme and appoints Frank as manager - he signs a document putting him on the board of SonyATV


Michael then suddenly passes away.

Now, Branca is forever in control of SonyATV for the next decade till Prince is atleast 18 (and even then, Prince can't do much)

Frank is forever in that position on the board (till Prince turns 18)

Do you guys see what is happening?

If Tohme could keep $5.5 million in cash from residual royalties within one year, what is going to happen when this clique of people are working together to siphon off Michael's wealth?

They will be raking in millions in backhand deals that they do not have to declare to court, such as favouring distributors, promoters for merchandise and all that stuff.

That's why they are trying to keep Katherine away because then they can't make backhand deals if they don't have the final say.

Look at the talk they have?

Klein comes on TV - he insinuates that drug addicts can never be honest

Frank Dileo does an interview - he insinuates drug addicts can never be honest

It's like they are talking from the same script.
And is it a surprise that the media is depicting him that way?

Those who plotted this needed a distraction, and that was to make Michael out as a druggie so that people don't look at those who might have been involved in his murder.

I haven't seen any media outlet discuss any theories as to who might have wanted Michael dead if it's murder.

No media outlet has discussed or aired Michael's fallout with Mottola and Sony.

To the contrary, as soon as Michael passed, Mottola was one of teh first to pay tribute and the media was talking about how they reconciled.

Give me a break. Reconciled when? Michael fell out with Mottola in 2002
2003 to 2005, we all know what was happening.

2005 to 2006, Michael was out of the US.

When he returned, Mottola was no longer in the picture. Where did they meet to reconcile?

And then some talk about how Michael used teh catalogue as leverage.

Have we forgotten how SonyBMG wanted Michael to approve a request that they form a separate catalogue?
Michael seems to have muted that idea, and Sony had no way out.

These are multi-billion dollar corporations that merged into one to form SonyBMG
They see Michael as a stumbling block.

Whose payroll are some in the media, Branca and Dileo on?

Look at Klein initially seconding Debbie to seek custody and fight Katherine.

That would have given them full control of the estate, full control of the two older kids and just a handout to Katherine each month.


There is a lot we will never know till 30 to 40 years from now but what went down is more than just "luck" for this people that Michael "suddenly" passed away, leaving them in control of everything.


Why would the media spend a month on the "drug" stories and totally ignore looking at those other angles?

No one has even covered a story about who stands to profit and lose from Michael's passing.

Just such a story would throw out red flags all over.
Click to expand...

rsw22 said:
What has spooked some of the plotters and schemers is the Jacksons' direct attacks on the ring of people around him.

Latoya calling it murder and saying cash went missing - suddenly Tohme returns $5.5million

Katherine Jackson challenging Branca and his circle of relationships - suddenly Branca says SonyATV not for sell

Debbie's friend backstabbing her with fake emails and Hoeflin attacking Klein as being part of those who killed Michael - compromising efforts to engage in a custody battle

The only thing to stop all this is if on Monday Katherine is granted a greater role than she currently has, which would scupper what the schemers put together.

Otherwise, why does Branca estimate the estate at $500 million which would justify selling off some assets with time to pay debts
While Londell estimates the value of the estate at $2 billion, which makes it meaningless to engage in any talk of selling off any assets now or in the future.
Click to expand...

Rsw22 - That I think is the truth, we right now can't prove it but thanks for taking the time to type all of this so its out there for people to read and consider.
 
Why can't this madness stop.

Can't wait till Prince is old enough to control it all. Hopefully he will respevt his father and will honour Mike the way he deserves!
 
My understanding was that the loan secured against the catalogue was provided on condition that a trust was set up and the income/revenue his share of the catalogue generated was channeled into trust.

The revenues would be used to pay off the loan (and it was allegedly to be paid over a five year term) and only the loan ie Michael couldn't draw anything from the trust during that five year period....hence why he was allegedly so short of cash in recent years.

Apparently music publishing catalogues can generate an annual income of 10-12 per cent of the value of the catalogue. Basing an estimated annual income figure on a conservative value of $500 million that's at least $50 million a year. If the loan was taken out to be paid off within five years then that $50 million plus a year of income does fit in with various articles stating the size of that original loan.

If the above IS correct then within three years that loan is paid off and the MJ Family Trust then has at least $50 million a year pouring into it from that catalogue.

They won't sell it. They CAN'T sell it. Trustees are bound by certain rules and it would be lunacy to sell an income generating asset like that when it provides such a huge return on investment like that.

Like it or not Sony is stuck with the current situation. I believe Sony will no way get the other 50 per cent of that catalogue.
 
mischief said:
My understanding was that the loan secured against the catalogue was provided on condition that a trust was set up and the income/revenue his share of the catalogue generated was channeled into trust.

The revenues would be used to pay off the loan (and it was allegedly to be paid over a five year term) and only the loan ie Michael couldn't draw anything from the trust during that five year period....hence why he was allegedly so short of cash in recent years.

Apparently music publishing catalogues can generate an annual income of 10-12 per cent of the value of the catalogue. Basing an estimated annual income figure on a conservative value of $500 million that's at least $50 million a year. If the loan was taken out to be paid off within five years then that $50 million plus a year of income does fit in with various articles stating the size of that original loan.

If the above IS correct then within three years that loan is paid off and the MJ Family Trust then has at least $50 million a year pouring into it from that catalogue.

They won't sell it. They CAN'T sell it. Trustees are bound by certain rules and it would be lunacy to sell an income generating asset like that when it provides such a huge return on investment like that.

Like it or not Sony is stuck with the current situation. I believe Sony will no way get the other 50 per cent of that catalogue.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the explanation.

I just hope Branca and/or McClain aren't secretly dealing with Sony. I don't now much about McClain, but I am a more than a little bit weary about Branca. I really don't know what to make of him yet.
 
My understanding was that the loan secured against the catalogue was provided on condition that a trust was set up and the income/revenue his share of the catalogue generated was channeled into trust.

The revenues would be used to pay off the loan (and it was allegedly to be paid over a five year term) and only the loan ie Michael couldn't draw anything from the trust during that five year period....hence why he was allegedly so short of cash in recent years.
Click to expand...
yeah thats pretty much it
 
Some of you are talking inaccuracies, I am sorry..., but I dont buy it!

Some of you are presenting your - "point of view" - as a fact, misleading the others! Your one-sided explanation is unacceptable..., do be objective, and dont demonize the circumstances!
 
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