Fave track on Victory?

[filmandmusic]

I'm a big fan of this very 80s sounding album and the other brothers contributions are all excellent. It would be cool to get more info on the recording sessions and the decisions that were made by giving MJ a lesser prominence here. What was the reasoning behind it all, perhaps it was MJ's own decision?
Expectations were high after Thriller resulting into this album becoming their best seller. I wonder what reviews back then were and people reactions after finding out Michael had less input.
It is kind of sacrilege but I prefer this album over The Jacksons/Goin Places/Destiny and Triumph. It is a fascinating album just like the Victory tour is. It is probably the only tour ever that did not feature a song from the album that was supposed to be promoted in the setlist!

Here is my ranking of favorite to least favorite song of the record

1) Be Not Always -It's an MJ solo song and one of my all time favorite songs hands down!
2) Wait - Wonderful beat which to this day would fill up the dance floors and as a die hard MJ fan it is always fun to wait for the outro when MJ chimes in
3) The Hurt - Randy sings this in falsetto, another wonderful beat imo. I hope very much Michael has a solo version of this.
4) Torture - This was supposed to be a Michael/Jackie duet but the plan got ditched when Jermaine came onboard. It's a shame, maybe another version exists? Great chorus where we can hear Jackie prominently. Pretty decent hit as well back then with a very weird and bad video lol
5) One More Chance - Wonderful Randy written and sung ballad, a perfect song for a slow dance on a drunken night in the bar
6) State of Shock - Probably a track that didn't make Thriller, it's cool and the big hit of the album. Shame the version with Freddie never got passed the demo stage. Love Jagger's contribution too. Jagger did this live with Tina Turner in 1985 at Live Aid (MJ should have made time for this!)
7) We Can Change The World - The Tito song, another great beat, vocals are fine, Tito had talent outside playing guitar which he proved more recently with his 2 solo albums (granted I don't know them very well but I did listen to them)
8) Body - The Marlon song, the 3rd single of the album and a very modest hit. For me the lightweight of the record but still a decent song, the beat reminds me slightly of Wanna Be Starting Something

 

[83magic]

I think the album cover is their best. they all look like superheroes. I see it as a sequel to the ‘destiny’ cover. the growth is remarkable. each brother has their own unique look, yet they compliment each other. I love how futuristic it is to match the overall musical production - which at this point is fast paced and electronic, but not as mechanical and cold as pop/r&b would become in just a few years.

though I’m not fond of the song, I think ‘torture’ shows great teamwork and plays to the group’s strengths. Michael gives a vocal that is impassioned, yet strangely soothing considering the subject matter. he really makes his presence felt the way he did in ‘can you feel it’, although he takes a completely different approach here. I can’t really make out the lyrics in the chorus, but the brothers sound strong.. it makes sense that this was a single.

if only the rest of the album followed this formula.. while I think it’s great that each brother has an opportunity to sing lead (which wasn’t the first time), this project feels like a various artists compilation and not a cohesive group effort. although I appreciate the faster paced and lighter feel on the uptempo tracks, much of it feels too similar. none of the songs stand out as classics like ‘blame it on the boogie’ or ‘can you feel it’. the lyrical theme overall is quite miserable - even more so than on ‘triumph’, with the inclusion of ‘be not always’. though it would be interesting to hear the rejected title track (without Freddy mercury).

I like the 7 inch version of ‘wait’. it’s snappy and has an upbeat chorus, despite initially being dark and uninviting. it takes us on a journey through conflicting lyrics. I think Jackie is an underrated writer and singer. he’s my favourite group member after Michael. he really shines on this album. yet this song would be a better fit for his own solo project.

‘body’ had potential. the steel drums give it a slightly Caribbean flavour. it sounds like something Lionel Richie would have released during this time. it’s sunny and a good way to end the album. however, it’s let down by shallow and inappropriate lyrics, it’s length (even the 7 inch version is too long), and average vocals. there are some interesting ideas, but I don’t feel they’re executed in an effective way.

the same could be said for the album in general. it lacks heart, focus, and commitment. Michael had long outgrown the group at this point. Jermaine was a late addition, which explains why his contribution was also minimal. though it’s rumoured that ‘tell me I’m not dreaming’ was intended for the album. it was also the most current song that was performed on the ‘victory’ tour. that being said, it was part of a lull in the show. apart from ‘torture’, and maybe ‘state of shock’, there aren’t any songs from the album that would work live. they were wisely omitted in favour of the ‘thriller’ hits. which is what the people paid to see in the first place to be honest..

 

[filmandmusic]

I totally forgot to mention the cover art @83magic it is indeed wonderful, very 80s, I have to admit it was my main draw to buy the album when I was a kid.

 

[DangerousGal91]

Fully agreed on Be Not Always (it's such a Michael-esque song that it's easy to forget it's technically a Jacksons song, even if he's the sole singer), Wait (Jackie's honestly really great here, has a nice catchy rhythm too, ooh and when Michael comes in... ), State of Shock and Torture. Also agreed that Body has a WBSS-esque rhythm LOL never noticed it before, but now that you've pointed it out, I can't unhear it!

My personal favorite Jacksons album will always be Triumph, but this one's pretty fantastic as well. And even though Michael will always be my #1 until eternity (obviously!) I do like the fact that the other brothers all get their time to shine here.

And yes, we need a Michael version of The Hurt! I so hope it exists... does it?? There's a Michael-only version of Why too apparently, so... Man, pipe dreams, haha.

 

[kreen]

I commend your praise of the Victory album. Every single song is a winner, although Be Not Always needs to be sequenced at the very end of the album. Here’s a secret : the album can be made even better by adding as a bonus track the Jacksons’ live version of Tell Me I’m Not Dreaming. It can be ripped from Youtube. It’s a good way to add some Jermaine vocals to the album, since he’s otherwise only on Torture and (barely) on Wait.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Two songs. 'The Hurt' and 'One More Chance'. Impossible to pick one over the other.

 

[Thatkliqkid]

My favourite track is probably Wait although I have grown to really like we can change the world. I would have preferred if Michael had the lead on the hurt. Personally this is my least favourite Jacksons album. I actually consider 2300 Jackson Street to be better. This was a rushed output to cash in on Thriller success imo.

 

[83magic]

I’ve been trying to give ‘state of shock’ another chance lately. the 7’ single version is better for me (they always are).

I’m probably in the minority (I always am lol) that prefers the version with mick jagger to the one with Freddie mercury. at least the production is much better. Michael sounds so good throughout. the mix is clear so I can hear everything. it’s still not a favourite in general, but I can tolerate it a little more now. I put it above ‘wait’ now.

with the combined star power of the two leads, I’m surprised their was no video for the song. I believe it was also the first single to kick off the album. I know there wasn’t one for ‘the girl is mine’, but that was before they were practically mandatory. besides they made up for it with ‘say say say’.

 

[filmandmusic]

The Mick Jagger duet is definitely better, simply for the fact that it is a finished song. From the two songs he sang with Freddie I don't like any of them, I think he can't match the vocal power of Freddie Mercury. They're not a good match for a duet imo

Apparently Mick Jagger in the post thriller years was obsessed with MJ's commercial success. It would have been a highlight on Live aid 85 if MJ had sang the song with Mick.

 

[DangerousGal91]

I do have to agree with the common sentiment that this album doesn't really feel like a "group effort"; it's a big reason as to why I think Triumph and Destiny are better. There's just more group cohesion on those albums, whereas Victory only has a few songs that I'd consider to be "group songs". As an album it's by no means bad, but... Well, it just misses the full "Jacksons energy", in my opinion. I do still like it though, and the points in my previous post all still stand.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I like the 7 inch version of ‘wait’. it’s snappy and has an upbeat chorus, despite initially being dark and uninviting. it takes us on a journey through conflicting lyrics. I think Jackie is an underrated writer and singer. he’s my favourite group member after Michael. he really shines on this album.

Agree 100%. As well as being underrated as a singer and writer, Jackie is also a great performer, imo, but it gets lost between Marlon and Michael, inevitably.

 

[filmandmusic]

It might not be a true group effort but the sound is very consistent

 

[83magic]

The Mick Jagger duet is definitely better, simply for the fact that it is a finished song. From the two songs he sang with Freddie I don't like any of them, I think he can't match the vocal power of Freddie Mercury. They're not a good match for a duet imo

Apparently Mick Jagger in the post thriller years was obsessed with MJ's commercial success. It would have been a highlight on Live aid 85 if MJ had sang the song with Mick.

I don’t enjoy mick or Freddie’s voices or music. rock is my least favourite genre as well. ‘victory’ seems to move more towards that territory, and away from r&b. I’m literally scared of guitars - even acoustic ones. it’s an immediate turn off for me. I have to get past the intro of ‘the man’ to enjoy the song.

I think two duets on one album with the same singer would be overdoing it. ‘there must be more to life than this’ is depressing, and would have brought the album down even further. again, there’s only one jackson brother featured. it wasn’t a true group effort. I think I would be more open to ‘state of shock’ if there was a solo demo with just Michael.

I have yet to see live aid. I think a song like ‘we are the world’ would be most appropriate for that event. though I would be interested to see Michael perform solo onstage in 1985. especially after seeing the pandemonium he caused when he came to see his waxwork.

 

[filmandmusic]

Ha I have known someone like you in real life. An (electric) guitar was a no go for him! I love guitars but I veered more to the other direction in later years. My favorite instruments however are all acoustic and none of them were often heard In Michael’s music: banjo, acoustic guitar, harmonica, accordion.

Mick Jagger has an interesting voice but he can hardly be called a singer imo

I personally think a live aid performance could have renewed interest in the thriller album. If he had debuted the thriller song there along with billie jean, beat it, we are the world and state of shock it could have had an impact on thriller.

 

[DangerousGal91]

Mick Jagger has an interesting voice but he can hardly be called a singer imo

I love State of Shock but agreed lol. When compared to the Beatles during the whole '60s rivalry era, it was often noted that the Stones were lacking in musical talent compared to them. All their songs are in the key of E, for one; the Beatles, meanwhile, essentially introduced me to mid-song time signature changes. And the singing... Yeah, compare Mick Jagger to Paul McCartney and it's clear who wins, lol. That being said, he still harmonizes pretty well with Michael, IMO. Both of them do!

 

[zinniabooklover]

Yeah, but all the cool people loved The Stones.

 

[filmandmusic]

I love Their albums beggars banquet and let it bleed.

 

[DangerousGal91]

Yeah, but all the cool people loved The Stones.

Yeah because being Cool™ is all that matters.
Haha I can see why some people would prefer the Stones, taste is of course subjective. But when talking talent in an objective sense, it's a bit different. (I admittedly prefer the Beatles, so maybe I'm biased? Lol. Blame my mom, she's a big fan haha.)

 

[filmandmusic]

I never understood the comparison between the Stones and the Beatles. A better comparison would have been the Beatles with the Kinks and the Stones with the Who

 

[zinniabooklover]

I love Their albums beggars banquet and let it bleed.

I do think they are way better musically than The Beatles but it's the whole thing, really. Well, OK, not the sexism but you get that with all the 1960's / 1970's rock idiots, unfortunately. It is sadly unavoidable. But the Stones, generally, were always just way more interesting than the other lot, imo.

It's probably bc rock music is my thing. The Beatles were always too pop for me. Not enough edge.

Once I saw Keith Richards' inscrutable face on tv, that was it. Not to mention the black eyeliner. Done and done.

 

[DangerousGal91]

I never understood the comparison between the Stones and the Beatles. A better comparison would have been the Beatles with the Kinks and the Stones with the Who

I guess perhaps it's easier to compare them if you were actually born in that era, it basically seemed like the "Michael Jackson vs. Prince" of the '60s, at least to me. I guess they got compared because of their respective success? Not 100% sure, but it seems likely.

 

[DangerousGal91]

I do think they are way better musically than The Beatles but it's the whole thing, really. Well, OK, not the sexism but you get that with all the 1960's / 1970's rock idiots, unfortunately. It is sadly unavoidable. But the Stones, generally, were always just way more interesting than the other lot, imo.

It's probably bc rock music is my thing. The Beatles were always too pop for me. Not enough edge.

Once I saw Keith Richards' inscrutable face on tv, that was it. Not to mention the black eyeliner. Done and done.

Well as someone who actually writes and composes songs, I truly think the Beatles were more musically talented. But alas, that's just me. I'm admittedly mostly a pophead; I do like rock, but not all the time. Probably plays a part in my preferences.

 

[zinniabooklover]

I never understood the comparison between the Stones and the Beatles. A better comparison would have been the Beatles with the Kinks and the Stones with the Who

Well, exactly. It was always ridiculous. I didn't realise at first. But later, I just thought it was bonkers. For me, The Kinks, The Who and The Stones. That is the 60's for me.

Plus The Animals. Jimi Hendrix. Yardbirds. Small Faces. Fleetwood Mac. Pink Floyd. Ten Years After. Canned Heat.

Sorry! I'll stop now, lol.

 

[filmandmusic]

Ok so you managed to sneak in a name that doesn’t ring a bell. Ten years after!

The big 4 of the 60s my ranking is as follows

1 The Kinks
2 The Stones
3 The Beatles
4 The Who

I think Ray Davies was a brilliant songwriter, definitely up there with Lennon and McCartney. I love the topics they wrote about.

 

[zinniabooklover]

Ok so you managed to sneak in a name that doesn’t ring a bell. Ten years after!

Ten Years After. Seriously one of my faves. British blues rock band. They were at Woodstock. Even made it into the film so you can check 'em out if you want to. Think they played 'I'm Goin' Home', IIRC. Haven't seen it for yonks. Great band. They did well and then things kinda fell apart. Not sure why. They are kinda under the radar. Alvin Lee. One of my fave guitarists. Top fave.

The big 4 of the 60s my ranking is as follows

1 The Kinks
2 The Stones
3 The Beatles
4 The Who

I think a lot of people would be on board with your list. My 60's bands would be:

Jimi
Fleetwood Mac
The Who / The Stones - can't choose!
Small Faces
The Kinks
Canned Heat

OK, that's more than 4 but I did leave some of my bands out, lol. I did my best.

I think Ray Davies was a brilliant songwriter, definitely up there with Lennon and McCartney. I love the topics they wrote about.

He was but, tbf, he was always appreciated. I don't think he's ever been underrated or underappreciated. His brilliance was so obvious, they had so many awesome hits. His lyrics, his singing, his phrasing - the whole shebang. The Kinks were subversive and so upfront about it. Cooler than cool. Cooler than the Stones, probably. I loved them. Loved Ray Davies. god, they were awesome! I prefer his songwriting to Lennon/McCartney. He had edge, they didn't, imo. His voice is so different.

Sorry! I need to stop! Don't get me started on The Kinks. You will regret it (you already do, don't you?)

 

[filmandmusic]

Of course I don’t regret, we’re talking about music, my favorite topic lol

 

[zinniabooklover]

Of course I don’t regret, we’re talking about music, my favorite topic lol

So I posted a Kinks' song but went for Strangers which is sung (and written) by Dave rather than Ray. Awesome song, tho'. Painful. Bleak. Then rounded things off nicely by posting Humble Pie / 30 Days In The Hole. One of my all-time fave beginnings to a record. Michael probably wouldn't like it, too messy! I love it. Bit of scrappy (but awesome) acapella and then they're off!

Looked at a few of the comments under The Kinks' song and there were a fair few peeps lamenting how underrated The Kinks are. Which is never how it came across to me. So that was interesting.

 

[filmandmusic]

So I posted a Kinks' song but went for Strangers which is sung (and written) by Dave rather than Ray. Awesome song, tho'. Painful. Bleak. Then rounded things off nicely by posting Humble Pie / 30 Days In The Hole. One of my all-time fave beginnings to a record. Michael probably wouldn't like it, too messy! I love it. Bit of scrappy (but awesome) acapella and then they're off!

Looked at a few of the comments under The Kinks' song and there were a fair few peeps lamenting how underrated The Kinks are. Which is never how it came across to me. So that was interesting.

I personally think they are completely forgotten today! Apart from “you really got” and “lola” I don’t hear them often on the radio nor do they appear in lists voted by listeners.

Of course you are from the UK so I can totally see this being the opposite over there!

 

[zinniabooklover]

Ha I have known someone like you in real life. An (electric) guitar was a no go for him! I love guitars but I veered more to the other direction in later years.

I still love loud rock guitars but I definitely spend less time listening to that stuff now. Didn't see that coming, lol. It's good though. More room in my head for some other stuff.

My favorite instruments however are all acoustic and none of them were often heard In Michael’s music: banjo, acoustic guitar, harmonica, accordion.

I bought a little book for 10p (!) called How To Play The Harmonica. The plan was to be really brave and go and buy the cheapest one I could find and have a go. So far it hasn't happened, lol. I do love the sound of the harmonica. I just posted one of my fave Canned Heat songs - oh, the harmonica part.

Love me some Northumbria pipes sometimes. Not too much but, when I'm in the mood, perfect!

Mick Jagger has an interesting voice but he can hardly be called a singer imo

Fair point, lol. No argument from me!

 

[zinniabooklover]

I personally think they are completely forgotten today! Apart from “you really got” and “lola” I don’t hear them often on the radio nor do they appear in lists voted by listeners.

Don't listen to the radio much these days. Maybe I've missed this.

Of course you are from the UK so I can totally see this being the opposite over there!

They are probably still doing OK on the 'golden oldies' stations. But you might be right, maybe they are not well known these days. You listen to the radio, whereas I don't, not really. Maybe I got this wrong. They used to get lots of name checks back when I read the pop papers a lot. But maybe in the wider public they weren't as appreciated as I assumed.