Double Standards (updated)

[KB50MJ]

Now this was a thread made on MJJCommunity in 2007 and it talks about how well MJ sold against current artists and how people wrongfully compare MJ's sales now with his in the 80's and 90's.

Now since this was made in 2007, some figures are a bit old. So I will update them here. And I will add more artists of today to compare by.

Also no one can comment on it anymore, so I figured I can make a new updated version for more current artists and sales to compare by and for new people to comment on now.

As we all know, MJ reached phenomenal heights in the 80s(110 million records) and 90's(123 million records), but I think he reached so far that people always compare him back to that era. This means that even though he continues to sell extremely well relative to other artists, some focus on that period so much that anything he does in more recent memory is labeled a disappointment. Case in point: Invincible. Invincible sold 10-12 million albums worldwide (2x Platinum in the US), but many have said that it did "badly." How badly did Invincible really do? Well, let's take a look at our new "King of Pop," Justin Timberlake. Justin's first album, Justified, sold 7 million worldwide(3.5 million in the U.S.) and the second, FS/LS, has sold 9 million albums (4 million in the U.S.),both of which is not all that outrageously bigger than what Invincible sold in the US. That means Justin has sold about 16 million albums in his solo career, which is contained entirely within this decade. How many albums has MJ sold so far this decade? Far more than 25 million, about 30 million albums sold this decade. So what I propose: instead of doing the silly thing of comparing MJ now (or anyone else) to the insane thing he was in the 80s and 90's, let's compare him to other artists. Some other prominent (or "hot") current artists and what they have sold worldwide(Now these are only album sales)....

Justin Timberlake - 16 million (about)

50 Cent - 27.8 million (about)

Beyonce - 20.55 million (somewhere around there)

Christina Aguilera - 25.76 million (about)

Chris Brown- 6 million(about)

Lil' Wayne- 8.55 million (about)

Fergie- 6.5 million (about)

Kanye West- 14.3 million (about)

Rihanna-7.8 million (about)

Jay-Z- 26.1 million (about)

In this decade, the only artists that I can think of that have outsold MJ are Norah Jones and Eminem (who has sold the most in this decade). I'm sure there are others, but the point is there are not that many! We're talking about a performer here who's had a solo career going back to the early 70s, And has been subjected to the most negative press in recent years than anyone could possibly imagine. and he is still crushing the charts globally. But the problem is people are thinking about days when he used to crush the charts even more, to a time when MJ made chart-crushing a hobby. So this was just my rant about an obvious double standard....take it or leave it....

For More info on MJ's sales, please refer to my article: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60068

 

[PieterM]

I really don't agree with your opinion. You can't compare Michael Jackson with these artists. Why not: you are talking about Michael Jackson, one of the biggest solo musicians of all time. The beginning of his carreer is in the sixties, Justin Timberlake at the end of the nineties. Michael Jackson has created a huge fanbase during these 4 decades, Justin Timberlake and those others not.

 

[MJJChichi]

i think kb is comparing the sales more than the artists ??

 

[Mystic]

The fact Invincible has sold better that several popular artists whose combined sales are less than or barely better than MJ's one album is amazing.

Sure, Invincible didn't sell 100 million. It sold 12 million. But one album compared to JT's 2 albums at 16 million, that says a lot.

 

[KB50MJ]

I really don't agree with your opinion. You can't compare Michael Jackson with these artists. Why not: you are talking about Michael Jackson, one of the biggest solo musicians of all time. The beginning of his carreer is in the sixties, Justin Timberlake at the end of the nineties. Michael Jackson has created a huge fanbase during these 4 decades, Justin Timberlake and those others not.

Yea like the person above said, I'm only comparing sales. Because people claim what MJ sells now is disappointing. But it was highlighted that MJ's worst is on par or greater than most other top artist of today.

But I didn't make this. I just reinvented and updated it.

 

[KB50MJ]

The fact Invincible has sold better that several popular artists whose combined sales are less than or barely better than MJ's one album is amazing.

Sure, Invincible didn't sell 100 million. It sold 12 million. But one album compared to JT's 2 albums at 16 million, that says a lot.

And back in 2007 when this original article was made, JT albums were at 12 million.

 

[Spider-Man]

What albums are you including in the 30 million figure?

There's Invincible, Number Ones,..are you inlcuding reissues like Thriller 25 in that?

I'm not trying to sound skeptical, I just like to give ppl facts about Mike so they know how amazing he is:yes:...and to do that I need to be prepared for potential questions they may throw at me...;D

 

[KB50MJ]

What albums are you including in the 30 million figure?

There's Invincible, Number Ones,..are you inlcuding reissues like Thriller 25 in that?

I'm not trying to sound skeptical, I just like to give ppl facts about Mike so they know how amazing he is:yes:...and to do that I need to be prepared for potential questions they may throw at me...;D

Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.

 

[lilsusie]

I understand you're comparing others' album sales to MJ's album sales but I hate to see 'justin timberlake' appear on
MJ forum. Truth is if Invincible was done by any other artist and with sales like that, it would have been deemed as successful. But becuase it's MJ's, it's a flop. Anything of MJ not selling like Thriller, Dangerous is deemed as flop.
Obvious Double standards.

 

[KB50MJ]

I understand you're comparing others' album sales to MJ's album sales but I hate to see 'justin timberlake' appear on
MJ forum. Truth is if Invincible was done by any other artist and with sales like that, it would have been deemed as successful. But becuase it's MJ's, it's a flop. Anything of MJ not selling like Thriller, Dangerous is deemed as flop.
Obvious Double standards.

That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.

 

[lilsusie]

That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.

Yupe. I kind of summarized it. From what I see, it's not a good thing cause it just keeps stressing that MJ is not as good as he once was. It's unfair for the stupid media to keep comparing everything MJ to Thriller. Maybe they should compare every other album sales to Thriller sales or Dangerous sales, then everything would have certainly been a flop. Such is fair to MJ then.

 

[144000]

That's the whole point of this thread.

But if an album that did as well as Invincible is deemed a flop for MJ then that is kind-of a good thing because it shows how big he really is.

i agree with this.

 

[Hess]

MJ sure still sells a lot of albums.

BUT as said many times already in this thread - because it's MJ, it's a flop!?? - Had it been anyone else it would have been HUGE!

 

[rahul_adams2001]

Yeah its very true when it comes to Michael Jackson then its all double standard.If anybody else sell even 2 million then that Artist is greatest.Though I don't pay more attention to these things anymore but yeah it bothers me sometimes.How you can ignore somebody's greatest achievements in music industry.And all these people doing this have bread by music industry only and if Michael Jackson is doing well then obviously music industry is also doing well.I think media should stop tryin to bring Michael Jackson down.But the problem is many people in music industry also ignore MJ and his achievements cuz if they don't then they would have come out to media and let whole world know how well Michael Jackson is still doing.
But yeah facts speak,thats it.Whole world can't ignore it but yeah some people still can't face the fact that a Black Child came out of poverty and became the most powerful artist in the music industry..I know its little controversial thing that I have said but I do believe it.

 

[BruceWayne]

Ok, lets tart with the albums he released this decade:

1. Invincible (2001) - 12 million

2. Greatest Hits HIStory Volume 1 (2001) - 3 million

3. Number Ones (2003) - 7 million

4. Michael Jackson: The Ultimate Collection (2004) - 500 thousand

5. The Essential Michael Jackson (2005) - 2.5 million

6. King of Pop (2008) - 700 thousand

7. Thriller: 25 (2008) - 3 million

So just from the albums he released this decade ALONE come to 28.7 million records sold.

Then add in the album sales of his back-catalog (stuff that he released before this decade) and its a little-bit over 30 million albums.

THen add in singles and you get anywhere from 35-40 million sold this decade.

WTF, number ones sold 7 million?! That's insane!
I'm a fan and I don't even buy those compilation albums.

 

[Alec]

Michaels sales this decade are over the top! He was on hiatus most of the time and he is still one of the biggest selling names in the industry! Can't imagine how much he could've achieved if all this crap hadn't happened...

 

[BruceWayne]

Michaels sales this decade are over the top! He was on hiatus most of the time and he is still one of the biggest selling names in the industry!

Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

 

[Sifa_Dias]

Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

You cannot downplay the effect of the internet and digital media, it most certainly does have an effect. Michael Jackson cannot be compared to modern day artist for that reason, when it comes to sales. You can't compare any artist from back in the day to current day artists, in that regard. It's just a different ballgame now, different industry, different market. Nobody will ever sell those numbers again, because of piracy and the internet. You can not ignore that.

The iconic thing about this for Michael is that he will probably remain the best selling artist for the rest of time, because those number of units just aren't shifted anymore. Especially with the start of the new millenium, the industry has just completely changed, and the type of media and artist with that.

 

[BruceWayne]

You cannot downplay the effect of the internet and digital media, it most certainly does have an effect. Michael Jackson cannot be compared to modern day artist for that reason, when it comes to sales. You can't compare any artist from back in the day to current day artists, in that regard. It's just a different ballgame now, different industry, different market. Nobody will ever sell those numbers again, because of piracy and the internet. You can not ignore that.

The iconic thing about this for Michael is that he will probably remain the best selling artist for the rest of time, because those number of units just aren't shifted anymore. Especially with the start of the new millenium, the industry has just completely changed, and the type of media and artist with that.

I honestly don't think internet has as big reason to bad sales as the industry wants it to look like. I think we as consumers are getting smarter and more picky. I mean, we've figured out that all those "scary movie" and junk like that isn't worth paying attention to, and same goes for "junk music". Of course there are people that will download and not support music, but in the end we still support what we feel is genuine.

I mean, just look at it like this; there are libraries where you can borrow a book for free, still the book industry goes around, real good.

However, of course we can't ignore that if there was no piracy at all, not on the streets, not on the internet, not anywhere, and anyhow... then of course more music would be sold, but would it be THAT much of a difference, I honestly don't think so.
But some people don't care about music, they pay $2-3 for a 25 second ringtone when it costs less to download the entire song of Itunes.

 

[Alec]

Yeah I mean, Thriller 25 sold 3 million this far, it's amazing for what pretty much is the same album he dropped 25 years ago.
People talk about we don't buy albums because of internet, which is bullshit. Justin still sells big numbers, and so does Michael. Which proves that those who don't sell albums are not worthy of multi million numbers.
It's just, there is soooo much music now days and everyone is trying to be a superstar, and when they don't sell albums they whine about Internet piracy and shit because they don't want to come off as losers.

It's the same with the movie industry, how can they whine about no one is watching movies when last year The Dark Knight was one of, if not the biggest movie opening ever.

I'm sure that if Michael will drop a new album it will sell good IF they promote it right, it's all about the buzz.

Agree with ya BruceWayne! Especially on the movies part.

Even though I don't really care about big numbers anymore as they don't mean as much as they did back in the 90s or 80s. I still think it's a good mark of success... Justin, Madonna, Mariah... They were all able to reach the 10 mil mark. I mean look at Usher. His Confessions album sold more than 15 mil copies only a few years ago! It's all possible, artists just don't release multiple singles and music videos anymore like Mike did with his previous albums. That's why even good albums don't sell as much as they could. Prince is a good example too. If he did care about commercial success he could easily sell 3-4 mil with proper promotion IMO...

It's more than likely that with good promotion both from Mike and his record company he can sell as many as Usher or even more. I'm sure that if all goes well he can do anywhere between 10-20 mil... but honestly... I think Michael doesn't care.

 

[BruceWayne]

Agree with ya BruceWayne! Especially on the movies part.

Even though I don't really care about big numbers anymore as they don't mean as much as they did back in the 90s or 80s. I still think it's a good mark of success... Justin, Madonna, Mariah... They were all able to reach the 10 mil mark. I mean look at Usher. His Confessions album sold more than 15 mil copies only a few years ago! It's all possible, artists just don't release multiple singles and music videos anymore like Mike did with his previous albums. That's why even good albums don't sell as much as they could. Prince is a good example too. If he did care about commercial success he could easily sell 3-4 mil with proper promotion IMO...

It's more than likely that with good promotion both from Mike and his record company he can sell as many as Usher or even more. I'm sure that if all goes well he can do anywhere between 10-20 mil... but honestly... I think Michael doesn't care.

You're absolutely right, especially about Usher. I mean he had a bad break up while he was cheating and getting another girl pregnant, better promotion than that is hard to find.
I mean, these artists today they push out an album every year, and that's why we get tired of them. They've got to understand that it's a "waiting game", to wait until the time is right for a new album.

I mean like, I felt when MJ dropped "You Rock My World", that wasn't a good look and it didn't feel like "him"... I was watching that music video like "so this is all?", I don't know who he tried to cater with that video because I didn't felt like it was towards me as a fan.
But I mean like, Michael will for as long as he lives be able to sell out arenas all over the world even if he'd sit down on a chair through the entire concert, because his "presence" has high value. He's like a phenomenon that you don't get to see that often, even when he's out in daylight he's covered up... therefore he has this high value on his presence.
Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

 

[144000]

Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

i agree with that quote. lol...it has to partly explain why haters get tickets to see MJ just like fans. lol

 

[BruceWayne]

Going to a concert is like getting a confirmation that there really is a man of flesh and blood called Michael Jackson.

i agree with that quote. lol...it has to partly explain why haters get tickets to see MJ just like fans. lol

^ EXACTLY!

Everyone wants to see the "alien", especially those that don't understand and are afraid of it.

 

[michaelsson]

number 1s sold 12million.

 

[KB50MJ]

number 1s sold 12million.

It did? Where did you hear this?

 

[Katzr2000]

Just a note on the piracy thing, I did my thesis on that precise thing : How much has illegal file sharing really affected the music industry... I won't go into it all now cos it looong and im tired BUT the gist of my conclusion is that it has affected the industry by making it change the way it works and looking at different mediums to earn their money instead of just pushing out one hit wonders over and over (a plus IMO), but it has not effected them financially and sales wise as much as they make out. They extremely exagerate their "losses"! In fact their loss isn't a loss of money, its a loss of potential sales, which can fluctuate for various reasons. And they also use the amount of illegal downloads as "lost sales" to push their cause even tho studies have shown that A: Not all people who would download an album would have payed for the album if the illegal route wasn't available and B: Illegal downloads can cause an increase of sales, a try before you buy mentality!

I believe the decrease in average sales is down to oversaturation of the industry. Theres no standard anymore, and its anybodys game. That could be seen as positive or negative..

 

[Sifa_Dias]

I honestly don't think internet has as big reason to bad sales as the industry wants it to look like. I think we as consumers are getting smarter and more picky. I mean, we've figured out that all those "scary movie" and junk like that isn't worth paying attention to, and same goes for "junk music". Of course there are people that will download and not support music, but in the end we still support what we feel is genuine.

I mean, just look at it like this; there are libraries where you can borrow a book for free, still the book industry goes around, real good.

However, of course we can't ignore that if there was no piracy at all, not on the streets, not on the internet, not anywhere, and anyhow... then of course more music would be sold, but would it be THAT much of a difference, I honestly don't think so.
But some people don't care about music, they pay $2-3 for a 25 second ringtone when it costs less to download the entire song of Itunes.

I think it is, i'm talking the internet and digtital media, not only piracy. Of course piracy isn't the ONLY reason. But the introduction of the Internet has caused more than just piracy. The internet and the digital media phenomenon has opened up the industries (music and movies in this case) in a big way.

There is much more out there now, more music, more bands, more media, more exposure. The market isn't as limited anymore as before, there are way more artists, more people find a voice now, this leads to overexposure, mass-consumption, etc. Nothing is as special anymore, which leads to less interest in the product.

Another reason is the way stars market themselves now, which is also moving all to digital, pretty much everything is. The days of an artist being this distant figure that was mysterious are pretty much over (a few exceptions remain), but overall they are way more in your face. That diminishes a part of the appeal and what makes the person so special.

Someone like michael jackson can't do his thing the same way he used to anymore, nobody can. He can't use the media like he did, he can't use the record labels like he did, he can't use a tv channel like he did. The majority of the control shifted from the industry giants and labels, to the people. When people can choose between paying nothing or not much for something, or paying premium price, the majority will choose the latter. This is the choice that people now have.

 

[144000]

I think it is, i'm talking the internet and digtital media, not only piracy. Of course piracy isn't the ONLY reason. But the introduction of the Internet has caused more than just piracy. The internet and the digital media phenomenon has opened up the industries (music and movies in this case) in a big way.

There is much more out there now, more music, more bands, more media, more exposure. The market isn't as limited anymore as before, there are way more artists, more people find a voice now, this leads to overexposure, mass-consumption, etc. Nothing is as special anymore, which leads to less interest in the product.

Another reason is the way stars market themselves now, which is also moving all to digital, pretty much everything is. The days of an artist being this distant figure that was mysterious are pretty much over (a few exceptions remain), but overall they are way more in your face. That diminishes a part of the appeal and what makes the person so special.

Someone like michael jackson can't do his thing the same way he used to anymore, nobody can. He can't use the media like he did, he can't use the record labels like he did, he can't use a tv channel like he did. The majority of the control shifted from the industry giants and labels, to the people. When people can choose between paying nothing or not much for something, or paying premium price, the majority will choose the latter. This is the choice that people now have.

lol...if what u say is true about Michael not being able to operate as he did before, then, how do you explain him selling out 50 concerts in a 20 000 seat arena in less than five hours, in, what most people say, is a recession? i mean, prior to o2, i am sure a lot of people in the media would've equated MJ's 'inability' to sell seats with his 'inability to sell cds like he used to, simply because of more choices..for starters.

i looked up youtube, and found out that mtv america. pulled the awards show with MJ and Nsync immediately after the london presale was a success. and then they played with the idea of returning vids to mtv america i don't think that was just coincidence. i think they didn't think....or didn't want to think that MJ wouild be successful with o2, or they wouldve done their catching up, as soon as there were rumours of MJ making an announcement, and before the presale commenced.

 

[Katzr2000]

if what u say is true about Michael not being able to operate as he did before, then, how do you explain him selling out 50 concerts in a 20 000 seat arena in less than five hours, in, what most people say, is a recession?

Cos Michael is special :lol:

And thats not really to do with how he promotes / sells his music in a digital world is it? These concerts were off previous reputation and the anticipation due to the time gap since he last toured. Plus they were promoted beyond what any other artist does now! He will however have to take a different approach to promotion and release of his forthcoming album as he has done in the past. But knowing Michael this won't be the same as the other artists, cos he always has to go one step beyond!

And as for the rest of what you said...I don't really get your point or how its relevant to the "working different" theory...

 

[144000]

Cos Michael is special :lol:

And thats not really to do with how he promotes / sells his music in a digital world is it? These concerts were off previous reputation and the anticipation due to the time gap since he last toured. Plus they were promoted beyond what any other artist does now! He will however have to take a different approach to promotion and release of his forthcoming album as he has done in the past. But knowing Michael this won't be the same as the other artists, cos he always has to go one step beyond!

And as for the rest of what you said...I don't really get your point or how its relevant to the "working different" theory...

well,, lol...i certainly agree with ur first line about MJ being special. cus with all the choices out there by now for consumers, we shoulda been all up in MJ's mystery, by now, like we are in other artists' mystery. but we're not. there are other artists who have waited a long time between tours, who didn't sell out the way MJ just did. so..i don't quite agree with the rest of ur statement. lol, because what u said in ur first line, covers it, for me. MJ is simply special:yes:. i mean, he simply doesn't play by the same set of rules as others, which is why he constantly seems to astonish many, with the outcomes of his circumstances. lol