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Pet Shop Boys and their take on Taylor Swift, referencing MJ.

MonkeyCheater

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Not sure if this is worthy of its own thread, but in this April 2024 interview with the BBC, I think the Pet Shop Boys nail the difference between MJ and the superstars of today.

www.bbc.com

Pet Shop Boys: 'We should call our next tour Farewell'

The pop group look back on 40 years of chart success, and discuss their 15th album, Nonetheless.
www.bbc.com

It is a very positive reference to MJ;

“I'd be very interested, if I'm still alive, to see how Taylor Swift is regarded in years to come,” says Tennant, “because she has this massive success - but normally with people with massive success, there's a popular legacy of songs that everyone knows.

“If you're Michael Jackson, who doesn’t know Billie Jean or Beat It? With Taylor Swift I never feel it's the moment where your grandmother knows her song.”

It is a good observation, a lot of people know Taylor Swift, but many of those, like my 65 year old mum, will not be able to name one of her songs. In contrast, I would say far more who know of MJ, know his music too.
 
But is it bc Taylor's songs are not so memorable or is it more to do with changes in media and the music landscape and how people access music?

Yes, she gets her songs onto the Billboard Hot 100 but her first hits were mid-Noughties. itunes started in 2003, Spotify in 2008. With streaming and changes in tv viewing how easy is to replicate the landscape that existed in the 80's and 90's? People don't have the same collective listening or watching experiences any more.

Isn't it a bit like saying Taylor is more popular than Michael bc she plays in front of bigger crowds when, in actual fact, it's more to do with stadiums these days are just loads bigger than the old ones that were around in Michael's day. I'm just not sure if we're comparing like with like.

If this is the same interview where Neil Tennant dismissed Taylor's songs as all sounding the same, he can take a running jump bc he clearly isn't listening to her output not to mention his own music career isn't any sort of advert for musical variety, imo.

Anyway, back to Michael. I'll need to think about this a bit more. I'm not saying Michael's songs are not stronger than Taylor's. I'm just wondering if things have changed so much that no-one will ever be able to have their songs dominate the collective consciousness the way his songs do.
 
That is an interesting point there, however, to play the role of the devil's advocate, comparing the generation of 65-year olds knowing a Taylor Swift song and them knowing Billie Jean might not be the fairest comparison, as they were at their primetime when Billie Jean came out. I think time will show and we will only see how this aspect evolves iover the next 20+ years.

And this comes from a 45-years old who doesn't know one single Taylor Swift song.
 
zinniabooklover said:
Anyway, back to Michael. I'll need to think about this a bit more. I'm not saying Michael's songs are not stronger than Taylor's. I'm just wondering if things have changed so much that no-one will ever be able to have their songs dominate the collective consciousness the way his songs do.
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That is true as well!! Consumers change their stars a lot faster nowdays and tastes are a lot more volatile.

Plus, do not compare Taylor's success with Michael in Thriller years. How many concerts did Taylor have to do to get to her place? Michael didn't even tour with Thriller!
 
Billie Jean 78 said:
That is an interesting point there, however, to play the role of the devil's advocate, comparing the generation of 65-year olds knowing a Taylor Swift song and them knowing Billie Jean might not be the fairest comparison, as they were at their primetime when Billie Jean came out.
Click to expand...
I kind of wanted to say something along these lines but wimped out and you are far more concise than me, lol. I haven't checked out the interview - although it's already making waves! - but I'm not clear if Neil is saying people of his generation don't really know Taylor's songs or is he talking about everyone? Even if he means everyone, I still wonder how easy it is for any song to have the cultural dominance that Michael's songs had.

Billie Jean 78 said:
I think time will show and we will only see how this aspect evolves iover the next 20+ years.
Click to expand...
I also wanted to say this. I know Taylor has been around for 16 / 17 years by now but I do wonder if it's too early to decide if her songs have got that recognition factor.
 
Billie Jean 78 said:
That is true as well!! Consumers change their stars a lot faster nowdays and tastes are a lot more volatile.
Click to expand...
I think this is a slightly different point than the one I was trying to make. I was thinking more about tv programmes like TOTP (in the UK) or MTV where loads of people were literally tuned in to the same things at the same time which more or less never happens nowadays. I'm convinced that has got something to do with the cultural impact a song can have.

Billie Jean 78 said:
Plus, do not compare Taylor's success with Michael in Thriller years. How many concerts did Taylor have to do to get to her place? Michael didn't even tour with Thriller!
Click to expand...
I like Taylor and think she's a really good artist. But I think it's an apples and oranges situation. Taylor plays in front of huge crowds but those mega-stadiums weren't around back in Michael's day. She's in the UK this summer and she's playing 8 shows at Wembley Stadium. Plus Wembley Stadium is much bigger these days.

But then there is this:

images
 
I’m just glad that michael is receiving positive recognition for one of my favourite songs 💜

I have no problem with today’s generation having their own superstars, even if I don’t care for the music myself.

it only becomes an issue for me when said artists are used to subtract from michael’s legacy. like crowning someone else the new ‘king of pop’ for example. likewise I think it’s unnecessary to put down other artists in order to boost michael. there’s enough room for everybody.
 
zinniabooklover said:
I think this is a slightly different point than the one I was trying to make. I was thinking more about tv programmes like TOTP (in the UK) or MTV where loads of people were literally tuned in to the same things at the same time which more or less never happens nowadays. I'm convinced that has got something to do with the cultural impact a song can have.


I like Taylor and think she's a really good artist. But I think it's an apples and oranges situation. Taylor plays in front of huge crowds but those mega-stadiums weren't around back in Michael's day. She's in the UK this summer and she's playing 8 shows at Wembley Stadium. Plus Wembley Stadium is much bigger these days.

But then there is this:

images
Click to expand...
It's not really that different. People change their tastes more frequently, which leaves less time to get acquainted well, less time for something to really get into our system, under our skin.
That being said, I do not even know what the crowd at a Taylor Swift concert usually is. In my mind Michael and the Rolling Stones were the huge players as far as concerts were concerned.
 
The bizar thing about Michael's success with Thriller, was that they were sometimes selling the album twice to the same household... the kids bought it, and the parents bought it. I think that's the big difference with Taylor Swift.

I wouldn't know one Taylor Swift song, by the way. I am not stuck in the eighties – I really like some Dua Lipa songs. But Taylor Swift doesn't stick with me.
 
I've always found Taylor Swift to be a bit....vanilla.

She's clearly a massive artist and has millions of fans but I don't find her very interesting. There's no mystery to her , everything is just a bit plain.

Michael always had a certain aura about him. He looked cool and was mysterious. Taylor has none of that.

She's doing well though so need to give her credit. I do think she's playing the game though releasing all these different editions with extra songs etc.

I guess if MJ was active and releasing 30 songs on an album we would be ecstatic. You need to question quality over quantity.
 
I’m a young geezer and I can’t name or hum a single Taylor Swift song.

So it is all about priorities. On a tv quiz a week ago the host played a bit of dirty diana and both contestants in their 30s/40s did not know the song.

I think we overestimate people’s familiarity with Michael’s songs. That said I think almost everyone in the western world is familiar with thriller and
Billie jean but that’s it.
 
I want to add that maybe Taylor Swift so far hasn’t made a reference song yet.

Michael has 3 and it is not just about the song. Thriller became legendary because of the video, billie jean because of the moonwalk. What made the difference with beat it I can’t quite tell other than it being a really great track but so are the other two.

The entire thriller album is filled with fantastic songwriting. I think Michael was no doubt at his most creative as a pop song writer during the 80s.
 
Everyone is making fantastic points but I still think it's more to do with the changing cultural landscape. 🤷🏽‍♀️

As for Beat It, for me it's the video. It was the first one where Michael really danced. BJ was only a little bit of dancing. Beat It was a full blown, Hollywood musical type dance routine. Michael was always better, imo, when he had some amazing choreography to get stuck into. The dance routine tells a story in itself and Michael's superior dance skills are massively showcased in a way that they hadn't been before. Not that Michael's dancing wasn't fabulous all along. Of course it was. But he really came of age in Beat It, imo. Blew everyone off the screen.
 
i am not 65 years old. Not even close. but i also can NOT name one single song of this b-Stars like swift, perry or gaga. lol. they will not remembered in music history. no legends, no icons. just rememberd to get naked and nude.
 
Piek said:
The bizar thing about Michael's success with Thriller, was that they were sometimes selling the album twice to the same household... the kids bought it, and the parents bought it. I think that's the big difference with Taylor Swift.

I wouldn't know one Taylor Swift song, by the way. I am not stuck in the eighties – I really like some Dua Lipa songs. But Taylor Swift doesn't stick with me.
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I have listened to a lof of music from pre-80's after Michael, I can enjoy some 90's as well.
I didn't realise the twice-per-household, it makes sense though.


filmandmusic said:
I’m a young geezer and I can’t name or hum a single Taylor Swift song.

So it is all about priorities. On a tv quiz a week ago the host played a bit of dirty diana and both contestants in their 30s/40s did not know the song.

I think we overestimate people’s familiarity with Michael’s songs. That said I think almost everyone in the western world is familiar with thriller and
Billie jean but that’s it.
Click to expand...
It may have been a poor choice as I don't find Dirty Diana a global signature song of his. I would assume more people would recognize Black or White.

zinniabooklover said:
As for Beat It, for me it's the video. It was the first one where Michael really danced. BJ was only a little bit of dancing. Beat It was a full blown, Hollywood musical type dance routine. Michael was always better, imo, when he had some amazing choreography to get stuck into. The dance routine tells a story in itself and Michael's superior dance skills are massively showcased in a way that they hadn't been before. Not that Michael's dancing wasn't fabulous all along. Of course it was. But he really came of age in Beat It, imo. Blew everyone off the screen.
Click to expand...
Beat it has an amazing dance sequence and I remember seeing it soooo frequently in the Moonwalker video!!! I wish they includeed it in the biopic!!

mjchris said:
i am not 65 years old. Not even close. but i also can NOT name one single song of this b-Stars like swift, perry or gaga. lol. they will not remembered in music history. no legends, no icons. just rememberd to get naked and nude.
Click to expand...
Short and simple!!
 
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Every 5 years they find some new artist to compare to MJ. First it was Usher, then Justin Timberlake, Chris Brown, Justin Bieber, the Weekend.... And in the end, all predictions about "the new MJ" fall apart. Now, it's Taylor's turn... Let the poor girl enjoy it while she can....
 
I think the point made by the Pet Shop Boys is valid, to a significant degree.

For all her obvious success, is there actually a song by Taylor Swift that has crossed radio genres, demographics etc.?
Are her songs hot on RnB stations, rock stations etc?

No!

Her success, whilst vast, is limited in terms of genres and age groups and also inconsistent globally.

In contrast, MJ at his peak appealed across radio formats and all ages.

To the original point…. In 1985, many 65 year olds world over would know at least one song from Thriller. Today, how many 65 year olds know a Swift song in America, let alone India etc.
 
It was a great interview and I agree with him, I take my girlfriends little sister to school and she loves Taylor Swift, so we listen to her a lot when she's in my car and I don't get what all the fuss is about

She's okay, but I don't see how she dominates the industry, I don't think she's got a great voice and her songs aren't that memorable. She seems to market herself solely to teenage girls
 
Slate joins the topic:

Taylor Swift Is Doing Michael Jackson–Level Numbers, but Does She Have a “Billie Jean”?​


Quote from the article, about the remarks by Pet Shop Boy Neil Tennant:

And, the snide Swiftie might ask, what’s Pet Shop Boys’ “Billie Jean,” smartass? That’s easier than they might think: It’d be “West End Girls,” which topped the Hot 100 in 1986 and is still so culturally omnipresent Drake tried to sample it just last year without paying for it. (Did he think it was a public utility?) Still, while “West End Girls” is the canonical Pet Shop Boys hit, I’m not sure even Tennant would argue that it’s “Billie Jean.” However tarnished Michael Jackson is as a public figure, “Billie Jean” is undeniable, so undeniable even queasy Jackson avoiders turn it up or take to the dance floor. Your mom knows “Billie Jean.”
 
MonkeyCheater said:
Not sure if this is worthy of its own thread, but in this April 2024 interview with the BBC, I think the Pet Shop Boys nail the difference between MJ and the superstars of today.

www.bbc.com

Pet Shop Boys: 'We should call our next tour Farewell'

The pop group look back on 40 years of chart success, and discuss their 15th album, Nonetheless.
www.bbc.com

It is a very positive reference to MJ;

“I'd be very interested, if I'm still alive, to see how Taylor Swift is regarded in years to come,” says Tennant, “because she has this massive success - but normally with people with massive success, there's a popular legacy of songs that everyone knows.

“If you're Michael Jackson, who doesn’t know Billie Jean or Beat It? With Taylor Swift I never feel it's the moment where your grandmother knows her song.”

It is a good observation, a lot of people know Taylor Swift, but many of those, like my 65 year old mum, will not be able to name one of her songs. In contrast, I would say far more who know of MJ, know his music too.
Click to expand...
True, I'm in my 40s and couldn't name one. I also think Taylor Swift is more of an American phenomenon, not so much at an international level, but I might be wrong since I never listen to the radio or charts etc.. On the other hand I watched her doc, and still no song stuck.
 
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SmoothCriminal1995 said:
It was a great interview and I agree with him, I take my girlfriends little sister to school and she loves Taylor Swift, so we listen to her a lot when she's in my car and I don't get what all the fuss is about

She's okay, but I don't see how she dominates the industry, I don't think she's got a great voice and her songs aren't that memorable. She seems to market herself solely to teenage girls
Click to expand...
And if that's true (not true, imo) it's working! Her fanbase is so big it looks to me like she's still got her original 'girl gang' fans - who must be in their twenties or thirties, by now. Plus she's got a whole new generation of teenage fans. Given that she was low-key for quite a few years that's impressive, imo.

Also, teenage girls rock and having them dominate your fanbase seems fine to me. Some of them will drop off and many of them will stick around and grow with you as Taylor's fans seem to be doing.

librariangirl:) said:
True, I'm in my 40s and couldn't name one. I also think Taylor Swift is more of an American phenomenon, not so much at an international level, [...]
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She's big in Japan. The Eras Tour film was a big hit in China. Apparently she's huge in the Phillippines. She's playing 8 shows at Wembley Stadium this summer (not consecutive, though. Afaik, Michael still holds the record on that). The biggest show she's played on the Eras tour was in Melbourne, 90,000+, I believe.

She's doing OK, lol. :)
 
Personally, I only take Taylor Swift because of the media reports about her great success and the records she is currently breaking, but the music didn't get through to me. So I don't follow Mylie Cyries or Harry Styles. But unlike Swift, I think that both of them have landed hits with Flowers and As it was that are currently known at least to many generations.
 
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