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Wembley DVD Critique /Quality and other prefered concerts over Wembley go here

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This thread is for members who wish to critique the DVD and discuss the quality and technical aspects of the Wembley DVD. Pro or Con . Also to Discuss what other concerts you prefer over this release and any other critique about the DVD. Please try to keep all discussions of this nature in here so as not to derail threads created for other topical discussions of BAD25.

Any post stating quality shouldn't be critiqued or discussed will be deleted _That is the purpose of this thread

We also have Wembley DVD thread for members who just want to discuss and show appreciation to MJ his Wembley concert and his perfomances http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...cuss-Michael-his-concert-and-performance-ONLY
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Michael Jackson: Live at Wembley July 16, 1988 - VHS vs. restored DVD
[video=youtube_share;NeZVW0D4TyI]http://youtu.be/NeZVW0D4TyI[/video]
http://youtu.be/NeZVW0D4TyI EPConcerts

Enjoy your discussion :)

Prior threads for your reference
[Video] Another Part of Me performance from Wembley DVD
A Message from the Estate Of Michael Jackson Re Wembley concert DVD Quality [Discussion]

FROM: JOHN BRANCA and JOHN McCLAIN
DATE: MAY 31, 2012
RE: BAD 25 RELEASE


It is great to see the overwhelming support and excitement in the fan community for the upcoming BAD 25 release. A few questions have arisen regarding the Wembley concert DVD. Although the press release wasn’t the place for background details, here is more information:

• We know that Nocturne captured on Umatic tapes the footage projected onto the JumboTrons at the various concerts including Wembley. These tapes were turned over to Michael’s crew and we have confirmed with Patrick Kelly (who headed Michael’s film crew for the European tour) that everything from Europe was sent to LA to be put in Michael’s storage facilities. The same procedures were followed for the US shows.

• Unfortunately, record-keeping in the storage facilities was sporadic, at best, so we do not know what happened to a tape once it was sent for storage. In most cases, once a tape was pulled from the box it arrived in, it was not put back in the original box and where it wound up doesn’t always make sense. As a result, 25 years later not all of the Umatic tapes from the various shows can be located, notwithstanding that we have conducted an extensive survey of all of the storage facilities. So while we believe that the Umatic tape for Wembley was initially sent for storage, we have not been able to locate it. And with regard to the Umatic footage of other concerts, the audio is extremely problematic and therefore these concerts are unusable.

• We know that VHS copies of the Umatics were made when Michael wanted to view a particular concert, but because of the lack of record-keeping, we also didn’t know which concerts existed on VHS. We ultimately did find Michael’s personal VHS viewing copy of the Wembley show attended by Princess Diana and Prince Charles, but not the Umatic. Even finding this VHS felt like a miracle to us!

• So while we continued the search for the Wembley Umatic master, we also researched the audio recordings that existed from all of the concerts including Wembley. Fortunately, the Wembley audio recordings were made using a sound truck, and appear to be the only multi-track recordings from the tour. The other audio/visual recordings that exist, whether Umatic or VHS, are “front of house” mixes, and therefore there are no separate audio recordings that can be used to create a high quality listening experience. It is for this reason that the Wembley audio is the only one suitable to create a live album.

• If we were going to include a live concert DVD in the BAD 25 release package, we had only one choice, Wembley. And there were only two options for visual – the Umatics for a different show or the VHS for Wembley. It would certainly be less expensive for the Estate to be able to create a DVD from a Umatic tape than to spend the time and money to painstakingly restore/enhance the VHS footage, but then we would not be delivering a truly authentic experience and we truly believe that watching this concert with the high quality audio will create a magical experience for all the fans as it has for us. We ultimately chose a lab that has developed its own proprietary technology for doing this kind of work (including restoration for NASA of VHS footage) in order to make the visual experience the best it can be under the circumstances.


We also could have chosen to release the Japanese concert from the first leg of the tour as there is a master of that show; but that concert was essentially a reincarnation of the Victory Tour with only two songs – “Bad” and “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You” – added at the end. It isn’t what we believe the fans would want.


We could have elected not to release a DVD as part of the BAD 25 celebration (and hold out hope that someday we might find the Umatic of the Wembley concert) or we could share with the fans the chance to relive that magical night with pristine audio. We made the decision to go with the latter and provide the fans with the most authentic viewing experience. We believe that the fans will agree it was the right choice when the package is released in September.
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Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Of course I prefer various other concerts over Wembley, quality wise (Yokohama 1987), but given the standards, the quality is mind-boggling good. I commend and solute the Estate for doing this and I'm extremely excited for this release.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

im gonna say im thrilled with what i have seen. I was really worrying after the first ITV spot teaser that the quality would be near awful but i was pleasantly surprised. The final quality will be available to see on mon which should be very slightly better then the amazon clip so im looking forward to that. Well done estate, and thank you :) :)
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

The main problem other than the sharpness is the colour balance. There is a green and yellow tint that has plagued many of MJ's TV-broadcast concerts. Yokohama was notorious for this, as well as more recent HWT concerts like Copenhagen and Gothenburg.

I know many people have struggled with the formula required for enhancing. I personally use a "quick fix" for all of these this which removes the tint and adds a little more purple and red.

Definitely LA footage is better quality, but when you compare this Wembley VHS to Wembley footage in Brace Yourself, you will notice that the Brace Yourself footage is "cleaner" but "softer". The Wembley VHS appears to have been sharpened using unsharp mask or something giving it thick outlines, I think it is almost oversharpened.

Watch a masterpiece like BBC's Planet Earth and realize sharpness isn't everything. Much of the footage in this documentary was upscaled from 720p or another sub-par form of 1080i (DVCProHD, 1280x1080) to 1080i, so you will notice considerable softness in some parts, but everyone still says the quality is amazing.

In my opinion I would consider the quality of this to be 7.0/10 and Yokohama is a 8.0 (Yokohama's quality is exaggerated it too suffers from green/yellow tint and thick outlines). 9/10 would be the Grammys. Tokyo 87 resembles a more compressed version this Wembley DVD while Brisbane is a softer "cleaner" video but overall less details than Wembley or Tokyo. Don't get me started with Osaka.
 
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Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I really just think they did a poor job and this isn't quality they should be putting on DVD. I really wish they had the 35 MM. They could of edited and made new angles and even 16:9 and Blu Ray.

I hate so many angles of the concert, what really got me mad was the end of APOM and the close up right on his face! Ugh!
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Frankyboy5 said:
In my opinion I would consider the quality of this to be 7.0/10 and Yokohama is a 8.0 (Yokohama's quality is exaggerated it too suffers from green/yellow tint and thick outlines). 9/10 would be the Grammys. Tokyo 87 resembles a more compressed version this Wembley DVD while Brisbane is a softer "cleaner" video but overall less details than Wembley or Tokyo. Don't get me started with Osaka.
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you consider yokohama quality to e better then wembley!?
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

It would be awesome if the estate gave us a list of what they have that was shot on film well of Michael's tours of course so we wouldn't have to worry about video quality
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

rsggamer123 said:
you consider yokohama quality to e better then wembley!?
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Gosh, it's pretty obvious that Yokohama is in much better quality than Wembley. They've got masters of this show so considering that they put this one under process of restoration as well, the quality will be amazing :)

I'd give Wembley like 5.5/10 (as for what I saw till now), Yokohama 7/10 (available rips). To get a quite good comparison, as someone ealse mentioned earlier, Grammys would be like 8.5-9/10 :)
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

mjj19582009 said:
It would be awesome if the estate gave us a list of what they have that was shot on film well of Michael's tours of course so we wouldn't have to worry about video quality
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And that would be the best idea :) To let the fans see, what the estate really has. Is it really that much?
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I think Wembley looks as good as Yokohama.

And the set-list, energy, atmosphere - everything - is just MUCH better in the Wembley show!
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I was happy enough with what I saw.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Edit: YES, I know Amazon APOM clip is compressed. Since that's all we have for now, I judge from that. Also compression is irrelevant in these issues I am pointing out here. I'm not talking about pixels etc. These issues below sure are gonna be in DVD too.

So, first issue I noticed are too fat outlines aka halos. I think they aren't that hard to get rid of if you're advanced (like that pro lab supposedly is).
Here's my quick attempt on that. I ate too much details with whites. Please excuse that, as this is only technique I know to fix halos somehow. Mjmax has his own way where he creates masks or something with luma or chroma, I'm not sure. Also you might think why outlines are so important? Why so big deal? Well, maybe you can't notice from a screen, but when you watch it in motion, it will make you think it is better quality. It will give such effect.
Minus with my example below is that perhaps to you it looks blurrier and more unnatural, but hey, that's just me. If pros reduced outlines without touching different things (like I did) it would look way way better. That would be great effect.




Mjmax' attempt on Yokohama

mjmax said:
Some months ago mjjlatvia asked me for a way to remove the halos - you know these black areas around the edges - so I wrote a script to detect and fix them. It was just a try and I'll let him work on this source.. :)

Btw, Wembley also have a lot of halos... they were obvsiously present on the VHS, but they got stronger with the sharpening. They could surely have dealt with them more properly.




Yuichi's version

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Shot at 2012-09-07

halos detection

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Shot at 2012-09-07

halos removal

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Shot at 2012-09-07
​

@dam2040: I think that professionals are much more competent than us to restore videos... and I would love that they used their skills to do a great job on this concert.. but the facts are here: I can see obvious mistakes in the way the video was processed. And I could say the same about the Vision's boxset. That makes me think the skills are not the top condition to do a good job.. the passion we put in work is probably more important.
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Next stop is the colors. Overall they're fine, however in some places I don't like them. Of course, this post is only for those who like to analyse things and are picky about videos.
For example, this Thriller shot. I think MJ's face is too yellow. Of course this also comes down to individual. In case you like yellow MJ, okay... :ph34r:




Now another thing which is pretty annoying is the weird look of fast motion close-up parts and zooming in and out in closeups. No idea how to fix this. Probably that isn't possible. I'm sure it was caused by their denoise filters.



Created something in that fashion for example.




Now another thing, but I am not sure how was VHS' raw condition. so MAYBE I'm wrong. I think whites were blown up bit too much causing a bit loss of detail.


About well, the "the best quality 24 years old VHS I ever saw" thing. Old VHS' CAN be better than this. If yours are worse that means only one thing - you dropped it in some hole to collect dust etc, played 50 times a day in some crappy 2-head VHS player, or it was 100th copy of a copy from an inferior source. This VHS which supposedly is MJ's personal must have been taken directly from a master copy back in the 88. Prolly it wasn't kept with very good care that's why it is degraded A LOT by nowadays. If you take a really good care of VHS, it can look rather excellent.
Queen Live in Budapest 1986 - VHS released on 16 February 1987.

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Also, yes, Yokohama does look better overall. Perhaps you may think no, but if you tweak few things like a little bit of denoise and contrast adjust you can see for yourself. This is just my crappy take on it. I'm sure Mjmax could do way better than me.






Ultimately, I would give Wembley 5-6/10 in comparison to the true DVD quality aka what it should be, for example Bucharest DVD, Grammy Awards 1988, Bad LA 89 snippets from DVD "The One", Man In The Mirror from Moonwalker DVD.
(of course you will say again that considering the VHS source issue and all etc this is great quality, but let's forget that for a second and compare to the true DVD quality)


Hmm, I think this was all I was going to say.. I'll update if I can think of something more lol :)

And of course I am just as excited as everyone else, can't wait for the DVD :D
 
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Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I would just add that some parts are oversaturated... Just like this screen of Thriller :) I think it's the best clarification on quality since now. Great job Rudolf :)

All this lead us to think that the filters that they used to retore this tape, were too strong... Like the denoising filter. A lot of detalis were lost. To see this best, as MJJLatvia pointed out, just look on close ups. Look how Michael's face has cartoonish facture. Though, not at each frame we can notice that. Some shots looks pretty good :)
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I'm not much of an expert in video editing. But what I can do is judge with my eyes.

What I can say is that I don't think Wembley is perfect, but it is passable and I dare say I find it acceptable. I'm willing to give the estate the benefit of the doubt in saying that they did what they could with what they have. The problem is, we don't know what they have. They know that Wembley was highly regarded and wanted, and they provided it the best that they can...from what I can tell.

When people say they have a specific preference...it's up in the air for me. I would have been fine with LA or Wembley...but Wembley is what I have wanted more so so I'm happy with it. I know some rather Yokohoma based off of quality but I just feel that more would have been furious over this...because it's already available. I know that for me personally, the set-list alone makes me want to have Wembley (or LA for that matter).
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

If the concert was released 10-15 years ago with the same quality, nobody will criticize it... now everyone want perfection... I really don't understand...
And those comments comes by people who put HD on their nickname or whatever only because they upload videos on youtube after "working" on them (?)

In my opinion, after seeing APOM, i think it's very enjoyable, still better than any HD Yokohama... I don't care about the quality, I care about the content.
 
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code753cr said:
I really just think they did a poor job and this isn't quality they should be putting on DVD. I really wish they had the 35 MM. They could of edited and made new angles and even 16:9 and Blu Ray.

I hate so many angles of the concert, what really got me mad was the end of APOM and the close up right on his face! Ugh!
Click to expand...

The angles are perfect (in my opinion). If you watch other concerts you will see the angles are (almost) always the same.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Jackson Rules said:
If the concert was released 10-15 years ago with the same quality, nobody will criticize it... now everyone want perfection... I really don't understand...
And those comments comes by people who put HD on their nickname or whatever only because they upload videos on youtube after "working" on them (?)

In my opinion, after seeing APOM, i think it's very enjoyable, still better than any HD Yokohama... I don't care about the quality, I care about the content.
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I agree i thought the quality was quite a bit better then yokohama..i guess our eyes are decieving us?? :-/
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Having been used to not having a concert in years that was truly enjoyable, (HWT was broadcast almost every year) I think that only people who were expecting a 35mm film concert will point all these things out. What normal person is going to go to a shop buy the DVD and list all these things about denoising and unsharp masks? The quality was more than enjoyable and I think the estate have done a fantastic job on this whole project. People make it sound like it's the worst thing ever released. At least it wasn't in the quality of some Victory Tour footage.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I think the quality is good enough for me to enjoy the dvd. Michael's performance will be amazing! I hope they release other Bad Tour concerts in the future like New York 88 and L.A. 89.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Visually, it is actually far clearer than I expected which is a plus. I can completely see the comments in regards to some of the colors being off and I too would say that some of the sharpness appears to be a bit much. Still, overall I'm satisfied with it visually. The audio is what I find to be even more amazing and that is what I am really looking forward to. Just imagine being able to play this with a surround sound or theater like system...amazing.
 
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the fat outline is because of strong sharpening and heavy contrast used.
the luminanz is to high and eats details in the bright shots.
6e39bc7dd8.png



the Yokohama screens have also that fat outline, just appears more soft. I guess this is from the enhancemen you worked on the Yuichi version. can you post screens from "the one" dvd.

here is one from "the legend continues" dvd. the ghosting its even worst. ok, its not official release.
d947170b33.png



the strange blurry effect also comes from the wrong noise-reductinon filter used and also cause is set to high. DNR is a bitch, when peole are going to realize that. Analogue picture is not and should be not cristal clean like a mirror.

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to me this restauration is done by amatures. the same mistakes are done, that many hobby remasterer from here do. I start to think its remastered by one of the member here.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

dam2040 said:
I think that only people who were expecting a 35mm film concert will point all these things out. What normal person is going to go to a shop buy the DVD and list all these things about denoising and unsharp masks?
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I was expecting a beta tape quality which is quality like DD of MSG, 12 mins LA 89 footage or Brace Yourself concert snippet footages, Yokohama from The One DVD, Bad LA 89 snippets from The One. Also, no, regular people wouldn't care much I guess.

I can understand the thing that we're getting something at all and only Bad concert and we got what we wanted etc, but we shouldn't lower the standarts imo. Thinking that this footage looks GREAT is very very wrong to me (and unacceptable since it's moderate quality at best) because it clearly isn't. I would be ok if this was quality for a bootleg not official release. But since only this crappy source is available I can understand it and accept it taking the issues in consideration.

Taken from "The One" DVD -

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Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

From a guy who works at Sony on Bad 25 project:

@Chino7671
@onir_mj Visual is initially distracting, more so than expected. BUT the experience of seeing the concert again is amaz. 5.1 audio is great.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

alexibexi said:
The angles are perfect (in my opinion). If you watch other concerts you will see the angles are (almost) always the same.
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The angles are not perfect. There are times where you can't see his whole body in shots you would want too. I know all the angles are the same as the jumbo tron footage. All of them throughout the bad tour are like that. That's Nocture's crew's angles and shots. At times they really suck! The thing that is upsetting about the 35 MM footage is that,there were film crews recording July 15th and 16th. So they didn't just have to use jumbotron footage,there were is much more other footage they could of chosen. They could of edited it and chose better angles plus if it's 35 MM footage,they could crop and make their own angles. It's annoying we are getting footage from the jumbotrons. I would rather them edit the footage of July 16th only and mix it and crop. Maybe it could of been like that APOM Music Video video. That has different angles, not regular bad tour angles, most likely because that was from the film crews there. And if they really wanted to they could of mixed July 15th and 16th if the angle wasn't right, because they shot those two nights. But I know we wouldn't want other nights mixed in with this one.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

code753cr said:
The angles are not perfect. There are times where you can't see his whole body in shots you would want too. I know all the angles are the same as the jumbo tron footage. All of them throughout the bad tour are like that. That's Nocture's crew's angles and shots. At times they really suck! The thing that is upsetting about the 35 MM footage is that,there were film crews recording July 15th and 16th. So they didn't just have to use jumbotron footage,there were is much more other footage they could of chosen. They could of edited it and chose better angles plus if it's 35 MM footage,they could crop and make their own angles. It's annoying we are getting footage from the jumbotrons. I would rather them edit the footage of July 16th only and mix it and crop. Maybe it could of been like that APOM Music Video video. That has different angles, not regular bad tour angles, most likely because that was from the film crews there. And if they really wanted to they could of mixed July 15th and 16th if the angle wasn't right, because they shot those two nights. But I know we wouldn't want other nights mixed in with this one.
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They can't find the Umatic's for the 16th. We don't know if they have the Umatic's for the other Wembley dates.

Mixing the audio from the 16th with video from another date would not be authentic.
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

I'm not expecting perfection........I'll be just happy to see the concert at last.....:)
 
Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

Yokohama doesn't look that great on "the one" too. Close-up's are good, but wide-shots not. But that depends on the cameras and the angle. If you watch the yokohama dvd and Munich, not all scenes are equal.
Not trying to be all negative. but when the dvd is out, i think Bad (Yoko) will not be what everyone expected at all. meaning "master tapes" avaible and they shoud have released that instead of wembley by some opinions here.


And the angles in wembley are really not good. thats why jumbotrons feeds are not good for releases. but thats what we wanted. unedited, straight video. just like 'in-house' audio recording its not usefull, so is on 'in time' video not too. thats what many don't realize and feel they missing and this is not authentic.
 
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Re: Wembley DVD Critique /Quality - All discussion on the quality of Wembley DVD go here

MJJLatvia said:
I can understand the thing that we're getting something at all and only Bad concert and we got what we wanted etc, but we shouldn't lower the standarts imo. Thinking that this footage looks GREAT is very very wrong to me (and unacceptable since it's moderate quality at best) because it clearly isn't. I would be ok if this was quality for a bootleg not official release. But since only this crappy source is available I can understand it and accept it taking the issues in consideration.
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I agree 100% ! We waited so long and in reality it's not good quality. I hate when people say or think it's as nice as Yokohama or if it's past decent because it's not. We have seen much better and we deserve better. Plus! The fans outside the community,not online, fans that don't even know how rare wembley is. They are probably buying this expecting "Oh a new MJ concert on DVD! Got to get it!" And they watch it and expect quality like Yokohama and then boom! It is a video from a VHS that they payed for and expected. I don't know about you but if I was that person, I would be so f**king mad. They are probably thinking they payed for a bootleg, but it's a official release! The fact they are officially releasing this VHS and terribly restored is annoying. I wonder if they even searched for the beta's! Other people must have them, they should do some searching in archives and the people who worked on Wembley and companies, etc. I bet they didn't do a search like that or at least a thorough one in this case. I didn't even think about the Brace Your self concert snippets,which seem like LA which looked so good :/
Ugh. We deserve and need that quality. Instead we have a VHS. It's annoying.
 
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