Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Of course I got upset today, because I went to the candy story to get tea and there was the newspaper right on the counter & you can imagine what the headline was. I expected all this, but somehow when you see it, it can be very devastating.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Originally Posted by StellaJackson
Anything can become addictive. Propofol cannot be used as a sleep aid. It doesn't help with insomnia and there is no research to support that.
Hmm I don't believe anything can be additive. What exactly did u mean? U mean any drug? And I also know that Propofol isn't a sleep aid and shouldn't be use for sleep. I simply stated what MJ used it for. Propfol isn't addictive I remember that being said in the Murray trial. But, I also remember too what Shafer said, that there has never been a study for that long of use like MJ got from Murray to determine side effects or addiction after so long using it. And that is exactly what BOTH SIDES should remember before they claim facts of addiction. Just look at MJ on the 24th in rehearsals without propofol, he was just fine compared to the other days he was on it.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

When I had propofol for a procedure I was not allowed to drive myself home--they wouldn't let me leave unless I had someone with me and they took me out in a wheelchair. I was fine. But it is strange that when MJ had it (for 6 weeks) he was supposed to go and rehearse the same day.

Propofol does give you a 'high' though, at least I felt very 'up' and happy after I came out of it.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

^^That is the problem with the opening statement so far. Every one is losing sight of what Michael used prof for, which was for sleep. Sometimes they suggest it was because he was an addict, other times because he was stressed. We all know that prof is not a sleep aid, but because it brings you under, Michael was told he could use it to gain sleep. I don't see how he could have a decade long history of its use though. I thought this was used during touring, and Michael has not toured much, so how does he have a decade long history of using it? This is different from saying that during the last decade he has used it during XYZ situations. Again, AEG is phrasing statements to get a specific picture across to the jury.

Jamba that is the effect it had on you, because I thought Shafer said the reason they like it is because you wake up alert and not groggy. I did not hear him say you get a high from it. Maybe your body is sensitive.

I used it once for a procedure and I did not feel high at all. I was very cold when I woke up and they allowed me to walk out to the person who was waiting for me. This was in the 90s.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Jamba that is the effect it had on you, because I thought Shafer said the reason they like it is because you wake up alert and not groggy. I did not hear him say you get a high from it. Maybe your body is sensitive.

I used it once for a procedure and I did not feel high at all. I was very cold when I woke up and they allowed me to walk out to the person who was waiting for me. This was in the 90s.

Yeah it is probably different for everyone. I had to used Propofol many times and it always makes me feel great afterwards. I am really high and happy, not for a long time though...
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I had propofol once and I felt very groggy and nauseous after waking up. Not the best experience for me.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Putnam is saying Michael started using Propofol in the 1990s and at least has a decade long Propofol history. He's also claiming that he hid his use from everyone including other doctors and even his family & kids.

Senneff mostly repeated the testimony he gave as one of the first witnesses in the Murray trial, describing how he initially "thought perhaps this was a hospice patient."
"He looked like someone who was at the end stage of a long disease process," he said.


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:perrin:





*big sigh*
 
jamba;3816810 said:
When I had propofol for a procedure I was not allowed to drive myself home--they wouldn't let me leave unless I had someone with me and they took me out in a wheelchair. I was fine. But it is strange that when MJ had it (for 6 weeks) he was supposed to go and rehearse the same day.

Propofol does give you a 'high' though, at least I felt very 'up' and happy after I came out of it.

I experienced the same thing and I could swore I heard the most beautiful music I’ve ever heard while I was under.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I think it's possibly and even likely Michael had used propofol over the years- my guess is when he was touring and could not sleep otherwise. Not sure how much of a "secret" it was- as (interestingly after he died) several people talked about knowing. Obviously, this is problematic for the people administering it, as I believe, it is to be used only in clinical settings (at least in the US. Possibly, the docs did not have US licenses...not sure) . If AEG's point is to show he used it before, and he was therefor responsible for his own death, I am sure the plaintiffs will point out that Murray has indeed been convicted of manslaughter. It doesn't matter how many times MJ survived using it- he died under Murray's care. So- the question is not if he used propofol (that is clearly a strategy to muddy the water).

As far as addictive substances- to be physiologically "addictive" (or to be a drug leading to dependency) there have to be a development of tolerance (meaning more and more of a substance is needed to achieve the same result) and withdrawal post continuation. So, not every drug can be physiologically "addictive."
However, if the drug leads to a desired psychological effect, psychological dependence can occur. As propofol evokes different effects in different patients, those getting high and happy from it have a higher chance of becoming psychological dependent.

But still- going back to my other point, I hope the jury won't get stuck on that issue. Obviously, per the emails, AEG knew he was psychologically compromised and did exactly nothing. A cardiologist is NOT a psychiatrist. I'm a mental health professional- and according to the symptoms described by Kenny, MJ should have received an emergency evaluation. In California, you do not have to be solely a danger to self or others to have this requested (as in some states). Of course, to do this might have significantly delayed the time table. So their argument that Murray was on post was ridiculous, as psychological evaluation are outside his scope of practice (as is giving CPR, as we found out). Also- the emails sure make it sound as if they regarded Murray on their team. And that they turned a blind eye to what was going on, covering themselves that a doctor was there. A doctor they said they investigated, but did not. So, we shall see what the jury finds.

The paramedic testimony, was just as haunting as the first time. :(

Interesting that only Marlon is not on the witness list. Guess he stood his ground. Bravo!
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Question is Debbie Rowe a nurse?
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Debbie was a nurse, but I guess she is no longer working as one now.

Katherine had to leave the room today when they talked about his death, but not when they talked about the things that will cause him to be ridiculed.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

On my local tv morning show they were talking bout this but i just ignored it and i think of course they were making jokes bout michael :(
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

^^I am not surprised. The media will have a happy time with this. Thanks grandma.

Just read this: Martinez said what he learned about Murray's financial troubles in the weeks after Jackson's death on June 25, 2009, led him "to opine that he may have, for this easy money -- the $150,000 a month -- may break the rules, bend the rules, to do whatever he needed to do to get paid."

I hope they are not going to rely on his opinion as evidence. I guess this is the part that shows Muarry was in a lot of debt & therefore, AEG should have not hired him because he would give Michael prof, because I don't know for what other reason they have this detective making this statement. If that is the best Panish can do to link debt as the red flag that AEG did not consider when hiring Muarry, then I am not impressed.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I think Marlon is not on the witness list b/c he didn't give a gazillion interviews, as did some others, about what they knew. Marlon apparently lives in Atlanta and did not have that much contact with the L.A. situation or with the family. One year after MJ left the Jacksons, Marlon did too, so he has kept his distance. He was closest to MJ in age of the brothers and they shared a bunk bed together in the small family home. It was Marlon's twin brother who died and he once said he saw MJ as his twin.

I agree that Ortega's suggestion to get a psychiatric evaluation was a good one, but when they had the meeting, MJ said he was fine. Kai Chase apparently will testify that MJ left the meeting early and it continued for a while longer, so it will be interesting to find out what they discussed.

I am glad the judge said only one sibling can accompany KJ to court. And if she is not there, they can't attend, as they are all potential witnesses. There was one article that said Randy had a financial expert there in court today to discuss with KJ how to divide the $$ if they win any (Roger Friedman).

In another forum someone said Debbie Rowe's participation in the propofol during the HIStory tour raised concerns about her, that she was Klein's assistant and may have been taking advantage of MJ the way Klein did, rather than innocently wanting to help him have kids, etc. Who knows??
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I don't understand this trial. They had a whole day & only got to 2 witnesses who already testified? No wonder this trial will last a long time.
 
Fans let’s think for a moment. Can you imagine the rain of crap that would have been showered on AEG by fans, family and people in the entertainment business if they had staged an emergency physiological intervention on Michael?

First of all his haters would have jumped on it and used it to try and take his children away from him. Second Michael himself would have hired the best lawyers in the world to sue AEG’s pants off for damaging his comeback and endangering his role as parent to his kids. If AEG had done what Kenny Ortega suggested I think the outcome would have ended as badly if not worse than Murray’s overdose. If Michael had lost his children it would have killed him for sure.
 
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Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Debbie was a nurse, but I guess she is no longer working as one now.

Katherine had to leave the room today when they talked about his death, but not when they talked about the things that will cause him to be ridiculed.


:(





This family only disappoint us and they are able to do so increasingly. :puke: :perrin: I wish this ****ing trial ends soon....
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Victory you are right. They were already making headlines before the rehearsals, like he had cancer which Lloyds also asked about. It seems Lloyds staff read the tabloids too, so if they could make up stories with no evidence, imagine what they would do if they had some evidence of a psychological evaluation.

Ash part of me wish something will happen to abort the trial, but I can't think what.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Petrarose
Ash part of me wish something will happen to abort the trial, but I can't think what.




There isnt anything that can be done now to stop the trial :( we gotta wait till it ends
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

The more days pass, the more Michael will be ridiculed and slandered by both sides, what kind of f*cking justice is that!? :mat:
 
Victory22;3816851 said:
Fans let’s think for a moment. Can you imagine the rain of crap that would have been showered on AEG by fans, family and people in the entertainment business if they have staged an emergency physiological intervention on Michael?
First of all his haters would have jumped on it and used it to try and take his children away from him. Second Michael himself would have hired the best lawyers in the world to sue AEG’s pants off for damaging his comeback and endangering his role as parent to his kids. If AEG had done what Kenny Ortega suggested I think the outcome would have ended as badly of not worse than Murray’s overdose. If Michael had lost his children it would have killed him for sure.

Here is Kenny Ortega's email:

The email:

Kenneth Ortega

to: Randy Randy Phillips

Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:04 AM

I will do whatever I can to be of help with this situation. If you need me to come to the house, just give me a call in the morning. My concern is, now that we’ve brought the Doctor in to the fold and have played the tough love, now or never card, is that the Artist may be unable to rise to the occasion due to real emotional stuff. He appeared quite weak and fatigued this evening. He had a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling, and obsessing. Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated. If we have any chance at all to get him back in the light, it’s going to take a strong Therapist to help him through this as well as immediate physical nurturing. I was told by our Choreographer that during the Artists costume fitting with his Designer tonight they noticed he’s lost more weight. As far as I can tell, there is no one taking responsibility (caring for) for him on a daily basis. Where was his assistant tonight? Tonight I was feeding him, wrapping him in blankets to warm his chills, massaging his feet to calm him and calling his doctor. There were four security guards outside his door, but no one offering him a cup of hot tea. Finally, it’s important for everyone to know, I believe he really wants this. It would shatter him, break his heart if we pulled the plug. He terribly frightened it’s all going to go away. He asked me repeatedly tonight if I was going to leave him. He was practically begging for my confidence. It broke my heart. He was like a lost boy. There still may be a chance he can rise to the occasion if we get him the help he needs.

Sincerely,
Kenny


My point is that Kenny saw that something was wrong and he suggested a solution. What you are saying about 'the rain of crap' is true if it was made public (but anything said in a session is confidential)--but it might have meant MJ would not have died. CM was a ticking time bomb with the nightly propofol, and Dr. Shafer said he thought there had been other close calls and that he was amazed MJ survived 6 weeks of CM's 'treatment." You can't take someone's kids away b/c they go to a shrink. Kenny's suggestion was the only one that made sense b/c the alternative was to keep on doing the same thing--let CM continue. How could having a psych eval have been "worse than Murray's overdose'??

Look at the date of the email--June 20th, 2009. IMO this email was a wakeup call for everyone, an alarm bell, but it got swept under the rug instead of dealt with. How could any 'rain of crap' have been worse that MJ dying alone with no one there except his inattentive, incompetent, and criminal doctor?
 
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Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

Look at the date of the email--June 20th, 2009. IMO this email was a wakeup call for everyone, an alarm bell, but it got swept under the rug instead of dealt with. How could any 'rain of crap' have been worse that MJ dying alone with no one there except his inattentive, incompetent, and criminal doctor?

You know, when Michael died, I remember many people were in total shock because they never thought that he could possibly die. Even I felt that to an extent - he was such an integral part of our world, our lives, that he somehow seemed eternal. I think even AEG fell for that. I imagine they never even thought that such a thing could happen in real life. In their minds probably the absolute worst scenario was cancellation of the shows.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

This second day reminded me a lot the criminal trial. Very sad but totally, for me, a true testimony of the paramedic. I think he was the only one in the room really interested in saving Michael, who unfortunately already dead when he arrived. Two events that prove that Murray is anything but a doctor. First, denied assistance for cash then let a person die to hide evidence. Revolting.

But think today was fruitful for Jacksons, as both witnesses favor the thesis that AEG just washed their hands to the physician that would take care of Michael. The worst person for the service.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I think it's possibly and even likely Michael had used propofol over the years- my guess is when he was touring and could not sleep otherwise. Not sure how much of a "secret" it was- as (interestingly after he died) several people talked about knowing. Obviously, this is problematic for the people administering it, as I believe, it is to be used only in clinical settings (at least in the US. Possibly, the docs did not have US licenses...not sure) . If AEG's point is to show he used it before, and he was therefor responsible for his own death, I am sure the plaintiffs will point out that Murray has indeed been convicted of manslaughter. It doesn't matter how many times MJ survived using it- he died under Murray's care. So- the question is not if he used propofol (that is clearly a strategy to muddy the water).

As far as addictive substances- to be physiologically "addictive" (or to be a drug leading to dependency) there have to be a development of tolerance (meaning more and more of a substance is needed to achieve the same result) and withdrawal post continuation. So, not every drug can be physiologically "addictive."
However, if the drug leads to a desired psychological effect, psychological dependence can occur. As propofol evokes different effects in different patients, those getting high and happy from it have a higher chance of becoming psychological dependent.

But still- going back to my other point, I hope the jury won't get stuck on that issue. Obviously, per the emails, AEG knew he was psychologically compromised and did exactly nothing. A cardiologist is NOT a psychiatrist. I'm a mental health professional- and according to the symptoms described by Kenny, MJ should have received an emergency evaluation. In California, you do not have to be solely a danger to self or others to have this requested (as in some states). Of course, to do this might have significantly delayed the time table. So their argument that Murray was on post was ridiculous, as psychological evaluation are outside his scope of practice (as is giving CPR, as we found out). Also- the emails sure make it sound as if they regarded Murray on their team. And that they turned a blind eye to what was going on, covering themselves that a doctor was there. A doctor they said they investigated, but did not. So, we shall see what the jury finds.

The paramedic testimony, was just as haunting as the first time. :(

Interesting that only Marlon is not on the witness list. Guess he stood his ground. Bravo!

Excellent post! I believe Marlon is not on the witness list because he may not have been a party to the interventions as per CNN.

AEG expects to call Janet, Jermaine, Jackie, Tito, La Toya, Rebbie and Randy Jackson as witnesses in its defense. Only brother Marlon Jackson is not on the defense witness list.
AEG lawyer Marvin Putnam said in his opening statement Monday that Jackson family members will testify about their failed attempts to intervene with Michael Jackson's drug addiction and their lack of knowledge about what was happening.

But think today was fruitful for Jacksons, as both witnesses favor the thesis that AEG just washed their hands to the physician that would take care of Michael. The worst person for the service.

Agreed. A successful day for the plaintiffs' legal team.
 
Petrarose;3816845 said:
Just read this: Martinez said what he learned about Murray's financial troubles in the weeks after Jackson's death on June 25, 2009, led him "to opine that he may have, for this easy money -- the $150,000 a month -- may break the rules, bend the rules, to do whatever he needed to do to get paid."

I hope they are not going to rely on his opinion as evidence. I guess this is the part that shows Muarry was in a lot of debt & therefore, AEG should have not hired him because he would give Michael prof, because I don't know for what other reason they have this detective making this statement. If that is the best Panish can do to link debt as the red flag that AEG did not consider when hiring Muarry, then I am not impressed.

It was Michael who wanted Murray. I guess AEG will say that they tried to get Michael to change his mind , but they could not, Michael was insisting on hiring Murray. Didn't Frank DiLeo say that he wanted to find a doctor in London instead of flying one fromthe US ? Anyway, the positive note about this (Murray's detailed financial situation ) is that it makes it very clear why Murray did what he did, it's a blow to Murray. And the "8 kids by 7 different women" .... The Dr can't do CPR, and has probably never heard of birth control either.

ebm4mj;3816827 said:
But still- going back to my other point, I hope the jury won't get stuck on that issue. Obviously, per the emails, AEG knew he was psychologically compromised and did exactly nothing. A cardiologist is NOT a psychiatrist. I'm a mental health professional- and according to the symptoms described by Kenny, MJ should have received an emergency evaluation. In California, you do not have to be solely a danger to self or others to have this requested (as in some states). Of course, to do this might have significantly delayed the time table. So their argument that Murray was on post was ridiculous, as psychological evaluation are outside his scope of practice (as is giving CPR, as we found out). Also- the emails sure make it sound as if they regarded Murray on their team. And that they turned a blind eye to what was going on, covering themselves that a doctor was there. A doctor they said they investigated, but did not. So, we shall see what the jury finds.

What you write is really interesting. But how do non medical professional usually react when faced with psychological trouble ?
It's not like a usual illness, where you have physical symptoms that make it "easy" to understand something's wrong. Psychological trouble can be hard to identify, especially for non medical staff, and if the patient himself doesn't think he needs an evaluation. I would think there is a difference between medical professionals who would be more sensitive to this and non medical professional who don't always see there is an issue. I hope I make myself clear.. What I mean, is that I think most people would rely on a doctor to make this decision, and Kenny was the only one who said that. Apparently none of the doctors or nurses mentionned a psychological evaluation. Nurse Lee for example who spent a lot of time with Michael, apparently did not mention that.
I guess it has to do with what is understood to be a psychological problem as opposed to personality.

jamba;3816872 said:
Here is Kenny Ortega's email:

The email:

Kenneth Ortega

to: Randy Randy Phillips

Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:04 AM

I will do whatever I can to be of help with this situation. If you need me to come to the house, just give me a call in the morning. My concern is, now that we’ve brought the Doctor in to the fold and have played the tough love, now or never card, is that the Artist may be unable to rise to the occasion due to real emotional stuff. He appeared quite weak and fatigued this evening. He had a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling, and obsessing. Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated. If we have any chance at all to get him back in the light, it’s going to take a strong Therapist to help him through this as well as immediate physical nurturing. I was told by our Choreographer that during the Artists costume fitting with his Designer tonight they noticed he’s lost more weight. As far as I can tell, there is no one taking responsibility (caring for) for him on a daily basis. Where was his assistant tonight? Tonight I was feeding him, wrapping him in blankets to warm his chills, massaging his feet to calm him and calling his doctor. There were four security guards outside his door, but no one offering him a cup of hot tea. Finally, it’s important for everyone to know, I believe he really wants this. It would shatter him, break his heart if we pulled the plug. He terribly frightened it’s all going to go away. He asked me repeatedly tonight if I was going to leave him. He was practically begging for my confidence. It broke my heart. He was like a lost boy. There still may be a chance he can rise to the occasion if we get him the help he needs.

Sincerely,
Kenny


My point is that Kenny saw that something was wrong and he suggested a solution. What you are saying about 'the rain of crap' is true if it was made public (but anything said in a session is confidential)--but it might have meant MJ would not have died. CM was a ticking time bomb with the nightly propofol, and Dr. Shafer said he thought there had been other close calls and that he was amazed MJ survived 6 weeks of CM's 'treatment." You can't take someone's kids away b/c they go to a shrink. Kenny's suggestion was the only one that made sense b/c the alternative was to keep on doing the same thing--let CM continue. How could having a psych eval have been "worse than Murray's overdose'??

Look at the date of the email--June 20th, 2009. IMO this email was a wakeup call for everyone, an alarm bell, but it got swept under the rug instead of dealt with. How could any 'rain of crap' have been worse that MJ dying alone with no one there except his inattentive, incompetent, and criminal doctor?

Yes , you are very right. Kenny sounds like he was the only sensitive one there, the only one who sensed that something else was needed. He must have felt awful after MJ died for not insinsting more. But I'm really not sure Michael would have accepted that. And I'm not sure a psychiatrist was the right person, because what Kenny saw could have had many explanations (side effects of long term propofol use, excessive benzodiazepine use, even a flu accoring to Dr Shafer). But it was definitely better than to do nothing.
In hindsight it's clear that getting Murray out of Michael's bedroom was the priority, but we have to think about what most people - non medical professionals- would have done in this situation. Remember after the hot/cold symptoms the day after the meeting, on june 21st, nurse Lee was called, and not Murray, we don't know why. She said to take Michael to a hospital, and that was not done. Apparently, no other doctor came on june 21st either.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I agree with you Bouee, it is hard just non-medical person to see is someone has pschological problems and even if you see, can you go to that person and tell him/her that you need to see therapist.

About why MJ's assistant called to nurse Lee and not CM was because it was Sunday and it was his day off.
I'm sure MJ's assistant told Michael what nurse said and MJ said no.
 
Re: Jacksons vs AEG - Day 2 - April 30 2013 - Discussion

I agree with you Bouee, it is hard just non-medical person to see is someone has pschological problems and even if you see, can you go to that person and tell him/her that you need to see therapist.
.

yeah, that is difficult. personally I would have no problem to say it, with chosen words.
But what if you can't convince the person and he/she doesn't want to ? I think about mental healthcare you would have to come to think that the person is a danger to themselves or others to force an evaluation on him/her. So you would have to first identify a problem, and then think the person is a threat to himself/herself or others.
It sounds to me that it is a lot in MJ's case. I know I don't know everything about him or or his life, but based on what I know, I would not have come to this conclusion, and if he had refused, I would have respected that.

it reminds me of a situation in my family. My stepfather got cancer, that was a long time ago, almost 15 years ago. He went through several rounds of heavy chemotherapy, then surgery. It was successful, but the doctors wanted him to go through other rounds of chemo after the operation. He refused, he didn't want to go through that again. We made sure he understood what it meant, and let it go. It was his life, his choice, so we respected that. He had a few good months, then the cancer came back and he died. We have no idea if the extra rounds of chemo would have changed the outcome, but we falt we had to accept his choice, and we never had regrets about that.

About Michael, I think it's important to keep in mind that Murray lied to him, and Michael did not think he was in danger. He thought he was monitored, and he only knows what else Murray lied about. He definitely did not get the right picture of what was actually going on.
 
ebm4mj;3816827 said:
I think it's possibly and even likely Michael had used propofol over the years- my guess is when he was touring and could not sleep otherwise. Not sure how much of a "secret" it was- as (interestingly after he died) several people talked about knowing. Obviously, this is problematic for the people administering it, as I believe, it is to be used only in clinical settings (at least in the US. Possibly, the docs did not have US licenses...not sure) . If AEG's point is to show he used it before, and he was therefor responsible for his own death, I am sure the plaintiffs will point out that Murray has indeed been convicted of manslaughter. It doesn't matter how many times MJ survived using it- he died under Murray's care. So- the question is not if he used propofol (that is clearly a strategy to muddy the water).

As far as addictive substances- to be physiologically "addictive" (or to be a drug leading to dependency) there have to be a development of tolerance (meaning more and more of a substance is needed to achieve the same result) and withdrawal post continuation. So, not every drug can be physiologically "addictive."
However, if the drug leads to a desired psychological effect, psychological dependence can occur. As propofol evokes different effects in different patients, those getting high and happy from it have a higher chance of becoming psychological dependent.

But still- going back to my other point, I hope the jury won't get stuck on that issue. Obviously, per the emails, AEG knew he was psychologically compromised and did exactly nothing. A cardiologist is NOT a psychiatrist. I'm a mental health professional- and according to the symptoms described by Kenny, MJ should have received an emergency evaluation. In California, you do not have to be solely a danger to self or others to have this requested (as in some states). Of course, to do this might have significantly delayed the time table. So their argument that Murray was on post was ridiculous, as psychological evaluation are outside his scope of practice (as is giving CPR, as we found out). Also- the emails sure make it sound as if they regarded Murray on their team. And that they turned a blind eye to what was going on, covering themselves that a doctor was there. A doctor they said they investigated, but did not. So, we shall see what the jury finds.

The paramedic testimony, was just as haunting as the first time. :(

Interesting that only Marlon is not on the witness list. Guess he stood his ground. Bravo!

Who are you referring to?

jamba;3816872 said:
Here is Kenny Ortega's email:

The email:

Kenneth Ortega

to: Randy Randy Phillips

Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:04 AM

I will do whatever I can to be of help with this situation. If you need me to come to the house, just give me a call in the morning. My concern is, now that we’ve brought the Doctor in to the fold and have played the tough love, now or never card, is that the Artist may be unable to rise to the occasion due to real emotional stuff. He appeared quite weak and fatigued this evening. He had a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling, and obsessing. Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated. If we have any chance at all to get him back in the light, it’s going to take a strong Therapist to help him through this as well as immediate physical nurturing. I was told by our Choreographer that during the Artists costume fitting with his Designer tonight they noticed he’s lost more weight. As far as I can tell, there is no one taking responsibility (caring for) for him on a daily basis. Where was his assistant tonight? Tonight I was feeding him, wrapping him in blankets to warm his chills, massaging his feet to calm him and calling his doctor. There were four security guards outside his door, but no one offering him a cup of hot tea. Finally, it’s important for everyone to know, I believe he really wants this. It would shatter him, break his heart if we pulled the plug. He terribly frightened it’s all going to go away. He asked me repeatedly tonight if I was going to leave him. He was practically begging for my confidence. It broke my heart. He was like a lost boy. There still may be a chance he can rise to the occasion if we get him the help he needs.

Sincerely,
Kenny


My point is that Kenny saw that something was wrong and he suggested a solution. What you are saying about 'the rain of crap' is true if it was made public (but anything said in a session is confidential)--but it might have meant MJ would not have died. CM was a ticking time bomb with the nightly propofol, and Dr. Shafer said he thought there had been other close calls and that he was amazed MJ survived 6 weeks of CM's 'treatment." You can't take someone's kids away b/c they go to a shrink. Kenny's suggestion was the only one that made sense b/c the alternative was to keep on doing the same thing--let CM continue. How could having a psych eval have been "worse than Murray's overdose'??

Look at the date of the email--June 20th, 2009. IMO this email was a wakeup call for everyone, an alarm bell, but it got swept under the rug instead of dealt with. How could any 'rain of crap' have been worse that MJ dying alone with no one there except his inattentive, incompetent, and criminal doctor?

I don't see how AEG could force Michael to see a therapist, trouble is Michael trusted this doctor, both Michael and CM insisted everything was fine. Obviously this email breaks our hearts but I really think we need to see and hear how this aspect plays out in court.

I'm sure with hindsight there are many things in life that many of us would do differently, generally speaking.
 
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