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Prelim Hearing: Understanding & evaluating testimony / Questions about testimony

smoothlugar said:
When this issue was discussed, Sophie explained the typo error of exhibit 68 that read 1.3mg instead of 0.13mg of propofol found in the gastric content.

Sophie was right in her explanation: there was a typo error but that had nothing to do with what was being discussed with Ruffalo. The point of the defence was the high level of lidocaine in the gastric content, not the level of propofol, though the transcription in Trials &T.. was not complete and didn't specify whether it was the lidocaine or the propofol...
.../...
I don't understand the defense point, I know what they are aiming at, but I won't accept it. However, we need logical explanations from experts that contradict their innuendos. I remember the defense insisted with all the experts about the proportion of lidocaine in the stomach. The most feasable explanation was the one given by Rogers, that of the different redistribution of lidocaine, but the defense argued that it wasn't distributed in the same way in the rest of the system...
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Thanks for the explanation
 
it just seems so sad that we are having to talk about any of this...it is just unbelievable that we are having this conversation about Michael...he should still be here..this is just so difficult..:( ..thank you all for all fo the breakdowns of this information..I undertand alot of what is being posted and how to break things down..it just helps when others clarify.
 
smoothlugar said:
Sophie, the defence were arguing the high ratio of lidocaine (not propofol). Once converted to micrograms, the level of lidocaine is 22,8 (which is 45 times the level of lidocaine in the hospital blood).

Here you have the complete transcriptions: http://teammichaeljackson.com/trancripts_173.htm

Don't know how to interpret this; maybe as the forensic pathologist (the Chief Medical Coroner) said it has to do with postmortem redistribution of lidocaine...:doh:
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thank you for this link, smoothlugar.

going by sprocket's notes from prelim hearings i thought there must have been a typo in an exhibit displayed in court which confused ruffalo. but now that i've seen the actual transcripts i realize it was the lidocaine concentration in stomach what caused the confusion.

as you say, the lidocaine concentration in stomach was indeed high, much higher than lidocaine blood concentrations (up to 45 times higher). but the same was not true for propofol. propofol concentration found in stomach was LOWER than propofol concentrations in blood samples and liver.

here are the amounts for lidocaine and propofol in stomach:


-- lidocaine --

total lidocaine amount in stomach: 1.6 mg found in 70g of gastric fluid

> lidocaine gastric concentration: 22.857 ug/g
(divide with 70 to get ratio and multiply with 1000 to convert from mg to ug)

compare this to lidocaine blood concentrations: heart bl 0.68 ug/ml, hospital bl 0.51 ug/ml, femoral bl 0.84 ug/ml.
lidocaine gastric concentration was ~34 of heart bl, ~45 of hospital bl, ~27 of femoral bl concentrations.

the total amount of lidocaine found in stomach was still small though. compare the amount of 1.6 mg lidocaine found in stomach to the amount of lidocaine in a vial:

lidocaine vials found at scene: Lidocaine HCI injectable 6x 30 ml vials
(s. autopsy report pg.7 in pdf)
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lidocaine vials usually have 0.5-4% concentrations which means one vial of 30ml would contain at least 150mg lidocaine. the amount found in stomach is at the most ~1% of the amount in a 30ml lidocaine vial.

for lidocaine available dosages s.:
http://www.drugs.com/pro/lidocaine.html
http://mohawkmedical.com/node/1358386
http://www.apppharma.com/our-products/preservative-free/product-161.html


-- propofol --

the propofol concentration found in stomach was much lower than the lidocaine concentration:

total propofol amount in stomach: 0.13 mg in 70g of gastric fluid

> propofol gastric concentration: 1.857 ug/g

propofol blood concentrations were: heart bl 3.2 ug/ml, hospital bl 4.1 ug/ml, femoral bl 2.6 ug/ml.
which means propofol gastric concentration was less than concentrations found in blood samples: ~0.59 of heart bl, ~0.46 of hospital bl, ~0.73 of femoral bl concentrations.

i think the propofol could have gone there because of a "transmural" bleeding of the stomach:

I) Resuscitative transmural hemorrhage of stomach.
(s. autopsy report, pg. 12 in pdf)
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the high lidocaine concentration in stomach was only shorty addressed at prelim by rogers. rogers suggested it could have been used for resuscitation attempts (lidocaine can be used for resuscitation similar to epinephrine), but UCLA drs didnt say they used it.

rogers also pointed out that the total amount of lidocaine found in stomach was small.

i googled and found out lidocaine spray can be used at intubation gear, maybe paramedics had their gear prepared with lidocaine? doesnt really make sense in an unconscious patient, but maybe gear can be prepared with it as a standard?
(s. http://www.springerlink.com/content/v7362016jk09v3w5/)

another idea: at scene was also found lidocaine cream. maybe mj had used the cream and it came in touch with his lips?

lidocaine cream found at scene: LIDOCANE 60 LIQUID 4%PLO LOTION IN TUBE
(s. autopsy report pg.5 in pdf)
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as to what happened during ruffalo's testimony:

for his calculations (which ruffalo did over the noon-break) ruffalo mixed up mg (milligram) with ug (microgram) and came up with extremely tiny lidocaine and propofol concentrations in stomach. he was asked what these figures mean and his theory was these tiny amounts would be due to redistribution after death (substances can spread to other sites within the body after death).

when flanagan pointed out to him he had to multiply these figures by 1000 ruffalo got totally lost because his theory of redistribution didnt add up any more.

flanagan then very shrewdly focused on the lidocaine amount pointing out the lidocaine concentration was much higher in stomach than in blood samples. he claimed these amounts indicate ingestion and ruffalo sort of agreed.

flanagan then swiftly switched from lidocaine to propofol, implying if lidocaine concentration was high and (in his opinion) had been ingested then propofol concentration must have been high as well and had been ingested too. and ruffalo fell for it.. at that point he was so confused he didn't even realize the propofol concentration in stomach was much smaller than the lidocaine concentration and he didnt point out what mattered: the amount was lower than propofol blood concentrations

as i said above, i think the most likely reason why propofol was found in stomach is the "transmural hemorrhage of stomach" mentioned in the autopsy report.

ruffalo could have pointed this out as a plausible reason for the amount of propofol found in stomach. instead he allowed flanagan to go down the "mj the addict who needed his fix and was ingesting propofol" route....
 
thanks for explaining. medical stuff confuses the hell out of me. give me a legal motion any day ! so the defence are trying to say that mj drank lidocaine aswell as diprivan! to me this whole drinking thing is such rubbish it doesnt even need entertaining. its clearly stated in the A.R what the logical reason was for this. and once again just like with everything connected to mj common sense goes out of the window and the most ridiculous things are thrown at mj becasue after all hes just a crazy freak.
 
sophie said:
the high lidocaine concentration in stomach was only shorty addressed at prelim by rogers. rogers suggested it could have been used for resuscitation attempts (lidocaine can be used for resuscitation similar to epinephrine), but UCLA drs didnt say they used it.

rogers also pointed out that the total amount of lidocaine found in stomach was small.

i googled and found out lidocaine spray can be used at intubation gear, maybe paramedics had their gear prepared with lidocaine? doesnt really make sense in an unconscious patient, but maybe gear can be prepared with it as a standard?
(s. http://www.springerlink.com/content/v7362016jk09v3w5/)

another idea: at scene was also found lidocaine cream. maybe mj had used the cream and it came in touch with his lips?




as to what happened during ruffalo's testimony:

for his calculations (which ruffalo did over the noon-break) ruffalo mixed up mg (milligram) with ug (microgram) and came up with extremely tiny lidocaine and propofol concentrations in stomach. he was asked what these figures mean and his theory was these tiny amounts would be due to redistribution after death (substances can spread to other sites within the body after death).

when flanagan pointed out to him he had to multiply these figures by 1000 ruffalo got totally lost because his theory of redistribution didnt add up any more.

flanagan then very shrewdly focused on the lidocaine amount pointing out the lidocaine concentration was much higher in stomach than in blood samples. he claimed these amounts indicate ingestion and ruffalo sort of agreed.

flanagan then swiftly switched from lidocaine to propofol, implying if lidocaine concentration was high and (in his opinion) had been ingested then propofol concentration must have been high as well and had been ingested too. and ruffalo fell for it.. at that point he was so confused he didn't even realize the propofol concentration in stomach was much smaller than the lidocaine concentration and he didnt point out what mattered: the amount was lower than propofol blood concentrations

as i said above, i think the most likely reason why propofol was found in stomach is the "transmural hemorrhage of stomach" mentioned in the autopsy report.

ruffalo could have pointed this out as a plausible reason for the amount of propofol found in stomach. instead he allowed flanagan to go down the "mj the addict who needed his fix and was ingesting propofol" route....
Click to expand...

Once again, THANKS. You have summarised it brilliantly!

I had missed that the point Ruffalo made of the redistribution of lidocaine post-mortem was based on his calculations in the wrong unit (miligrams) and that once he realised his mistake he got so confused he MISSED THE IMPORTANT ISSUE, as you say, that the propofol level in stomach was lower than in the rest of the system, and that that could be as the result of what Rogers said: either the hemorrhage, the redistribution from adjacent organs or even at the time of autopsy. (I'm just paraphrasing you)

Also very important the possible explanations you have given for the presence of the lidocaine. (I think the intubation gear could be the most feasable explanation).

One million thanks again! (You are fast at explaining the senseless game of the defence).:yes:
 
is that Ruffalo dude testifying during the trial? he needs to go away since he got so confused easily
 
sophie said:
thank you for this link, smoothlugar.

going by sprocket's notes from prelim hearings i thought there must have been a typo in an exhibit displayed in court which confused ruffalo. but now that i've seen the actual transcripts i realize it was the lidocaine concentration in stomach what caused the confusion.

as you say, the lidocaine concentration in stomach was indeed high, much higher than lidocaine blood concentrations (up to 45 times higher). but the same was not true for propofol. propofol concentration found in stomach was LOWER than propofol concentrations in blood samples and liver.

here are the amounts for lidocaine and propofol in stomach:


-- lidocaine --

total lidocaine amount in stomach: 1.6 mg found in 70g of gastric fluid

> lidocaine gastric concentration: 22.857 ug/g
(divide with 70 to get ratio and multiply with 1000 to convert from mg to ug)

compare this to lidocaine blood concentrations: heart bl 0.68 ug/ml, hospital bl 0.51 ug/ml, femoral bl 0.84 ug/ml.
lidocaine gastric concentration was ~34 of heart bl, ~45 of hospital bl, ~27 of femoral bl concentrations.

the total amount of lidocaine found in stomach was still small though. compare the amount of 1.6 mg lidocaine found in stomach to the amount of lidocaine in a vial:



lidocaine vials usually have 0.5-4% concentrations which means one vial of 30ml would contain at least 150mg lidocaine. the amount found in stomach is at the most ~1% of the amount in a 30ml lidocaine vial.

for lidocaine available dosages s.:
http://www.drugs.com/pro/lidocaine.html
http://mohawkmedical.com/node/1358386
http://www.apppharma.com/our-products/preservative-free/product-161.html


-- propofol --

the propofol concentration found in stomach was much lower than the lidocaine concentration:

total propofol amount in stomach: 0.13 mg in 70g of gastric fluid

> propofol gastric concentration: 1.857 ug/g

propofol blood concentrations were: heart bl 3.2 ug/ml, hospital bl 4.1 ug/ml, femoral bl 2.6 ug/ml.
which means propofol gastric concentration was less than concentrations found in blood samples: ~0.59 of heart bl, ~0.46 of hospital bl, ~0.73 of femoral bl concentrations.

i think the propofol could have gone there because of a "transmural" bleeding of the stomach:




the high lidocaine concentration in stomach was only shorty addressed at prelim by rogers. rogers suggested it could have been used for resuscitation attempts (lidocaine can be used for resuscitation similar to epinephrine), but UCLA drs didnt say they used it.

rogers also pointed out that the total amount of lidocaine found in stomach was small.

i googled and found out lidocaine spray can be used at intubation gear, maybe paramedics had their gear prepared with lidocaine? doesnt really make sense in an unconscious patient, but maybe gear can be prepared with it as a standard?
(s. http://www.springerlink.com/content/v7362016jk09v3w5/)

another idea: at scene was also found lidocaine cream. maybe mj had used the cream and it came in touch with his lips?




as to what happened during ruffalo's testimony:

for his calculations (which ruffalo did over the noon-break) ruffalo mixed up mg (milligram) with ug (microgram) and came up with extremely tiny lidocaine and propofol concentrations in stomach. he was asked what these figures mean and his theory was these tiny amounts would be due to redistribution after death (substances can spread to other sites within the body after death).

when flanagan pointed out to him he had to multiply these figures by 1000 ruffalo got totally lost because his theory of redistribution didnt add up any more.

flanagan then very shrewdly focused on the lidocaine amount pointing out the lidocaine concentration was much higher in stomach than in blood samples. he claimed these amounts indicate ingestion and ruffalo sort of agreed.

flanagan then swiftly switched from lidocaine to propofol, implying if lidocaine concentration was high and (in his opinion) had been ingested then propofol concentration must have been high as well and had been ingested too. and ruffalo fell for it.. at that point he was so confused he didn't even realize the propofol concentration in stomach was much smaller than the lidocaine concentration and he didnt point out what mattered: the amount was lower than propofol blood concentrations

as i said above, i think the most likely reason why propofol was found in stomach is the "transmural hemorrhage of stomach" mentioned in the autopsy report.

ruffalo could have pointed this out as a plausible reason for the amount of propofol found in stomach. instead he allowed flanagan to go down the "mj the addict who needed his fix and was ingesting propofol" route....
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Brilliant Sophie,,,thank you so much...:)
 
This question is for anyone with medical knowledge, or who saw the actual bed photos of the crime scene and familiar with IV stands.

Can IV stands be taken apart? Or are they just one piece? If they can be taken apart, how much, into how many pieces?

I assume the long pole could be detatched from the rollers at the bottom though.....don't really know....
 
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All the defence are trying to do is play on the "beyond reasonable doubt" avenue when going on guilt.
 
I guess no one knows anything about IV stands....I'll just do more searching about them, and if I have to, I'll just ask a nurse....

But I do have another question I hope someone could please answer for me.

The syringe that defense are having tested for fingerprints, what size syringe is it? The maximum mg it holds?
 
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kasume said:
This question is for anyone with medical knowledge, or who saw the actual bed photos of the crime scene and familiar with IV stands.

Can IV stands be taken apart? Or are they just one piece? If they can be taken apart, how much, into how many pieces?

I assume the long pole could be detatched from the rollers at the bottom though.....don't really know....
Click to expand...

Saw the picture a long time ago, don't remember the IV pole specifically. In general, the poles can telescope, some can be folded, some can be pulled apart. Rolling or floor poles telescope and could be pulled apart. Depends on the design. I think it would be pretty hard to take it apart at the bottom. They are designed for stability so don't just unscrew from the base, if that is what you're thinking. Last thing you'd want is a wobbly IV pole with a liter bag of fluid hanging over your head...
 
can u not post that or put it in a link so ppl dont have to see it if they dont want to
 
The picture is 1000% fake I just learned. But okay, I'll still put it in a link.
 
- Please, can someone confirm if this list of Murray's calls is ok?
- Another question: the call at 12:12 was to William Amir, but the call at 12:15 was "incoming", from William, wasn't it? (Thank you).

(Taken from: http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/someone-to-monitor-me/ )
9:23 a.m. incoming call lasts 22 minutes (Bioni)
·10:29 a.m. incoming call lasts 22 minutes[1]
·11:07 a.m. incoming call lasts 1 minute (Ruggles)
·11:18 a.m. incoming call lasts 32 minutes (Global Cardiovascular)[2]
·11:26 a.m. incoming call lasts 24 minutes (Russell)
·11:49 a.m. outgoing call lasts 3 minutes
·11:51 a.m. outgoing call lasts 11 minutes (Anding)
·12:12 p.m. outgoing call lasts 1 minute
·12:15 p.m. outgoing call lasts 1 minute
Jeff Strohm is a custodian of records for Sprint/Nextel. He detailed the phone calls Murray made from that phone:

·7:01 a.m. outgoing call lasts 25 seconds (Butler)
·8:49 a.m. incoming call lasts 53 seconds (Guild)
·10:22 a.m. incoming call lasts 111 seconds (Dr. Prechad)
·10:34 a.m. outgoing call lasts 8 ½ minutes (Ruggles)
·11:26 a.m. incoming call lasts seven seconds (Morgan)
·1:08 p.m. outgoing call lasts 2 minutes (Alvarez)

[1] This telephone call occurred during the time Murray claims he was administering Propofol to Mr. Jackson.
 
yeah those calls should bury Murray because he obviously was not paying attention to MJ at all.. Does anyone know who Dr Prechard is?
 
below is the full list of calls i copied from the prelim thread at the time. yes i think the incoming call was from amir from what i remember

relevant data activity
12:03 pm text
12:04 text message to or from TX
12. 13 pm data
12:18 pm data
12:53 pm text mesage California
1:23 pm text message Nevada

- list of phone calls
10:29 am call from ? to Murray’s phone 22 minutes
11:07 am from 3233 to Murray’s phone 1 minute
11 18 am call from 0973 placed 6802 and that call logged at 32 minutes.
missed listing one call
11:49 am call placed from Murray to 4989 3 minutes.
11:51 am a call placed from Murry to 3832 11 minutes.
12:12 pm from Murray phone to 2570 lasted 1 minute
12:15 pm from 2570 to conrad Murray 1 minute

- Chernoff asks if it's possible to retrieve text messages and voice messages. Expert says yes but he's not an expert and not familiar with the process.

JEFF STROHM

- Works for Sprint Nextel.

- Phone calls
8:49 am from 5217 to Murray 53 seconds
10:22 am from 0124 to Murray 111 seconds
10:34 am from Murray to 3233 8 and a half minutes
11:26 am from 9566 to Murray seven seconds
1:08 pm from Murray to 070 2 minutes
 
so when did Murray go to the bathroom? those phone calls make him even more guilty. He has no idea I bet when MJ died.
 
Based on court reference and "assuming" Murray's two minutes is true and that nothing was staged - sometime between 11:51-12:02.
 
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From my understanding, the defence are not pointing out the "2 minutes absence" (declared by M. to detectives) as the time when their "theory" happened, but they are more vague about it.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-6-part-ii.html

- CROSS to Dr. Rogers:

"Dr. told us he was in the bathroom for a very short time. and so could have all of those things happen in such a short time.

And you’ve come across facts that the doctor was on the phone... for about 40 minutes.

Never considered that he was on the phone for 30 minutes. No.
Or the phone call to the lady in Tx? no."

- CROSS to Ruffallo:

"Dr. M statement and phone records, Dr. Murray probably was out of the room for 40 minutes.

Let’s assume that’s right. ad made the assumption that he discovered that Dr. M discovered MJ not breathing around 11:50 something."
 
why hasn't Murray's attorneys mentioned the 2 minutes restroom lie?
 
Because Murray had not mentioned to the police his phone calls...??
 
whats worst admitting you went to the toliet for 2 mins and shock horror mj just happened to wake up and do all that in 2 mins wihich is hardly believable or admit you actually left the room for 40 mins? seems to me the idiot defence are stuck between a rock and hard place. to make it seem more believable they have to admit that murray was actually out of the room for a huge amount of time. but then claim i guess that he left the room cause mj was sleeping normally and not under any diprivan at that point
 
elusive moonwalker said:
whats worst admitting you went to the toliet for 2 mins and shock horror mj just happened to wake up and do all that in 2 mins wihich is hardly believable or admit you actually left the room for 40 mins? seems to me the idiot defence are stuck between a rock and hard place. to make it seem more believable they have to admit that murray was actually out of the room for a huge amount of time. but then claim i guess that he left the room cause mj was sleeping normally and not under any diprivan at that point
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yeah sounds to me like they're stuck too.. Murray already told the cops in his interview that he gave the diprivan at 10:40 so MJ was already under the influence of it. Not calling 911 until 12:05 smacks of guilt to me. How long was Murray trying to 'revive' MJ?
 
Does anyone know if that condom catheter was attached to Michael? Or did murray take it off before anyone came upstairs to help?
 
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Yes, it was attached to Michael, according to Alberto Alvarez.
 
During the preliminary the defense insisted on the ratio of lidocaine over the propofol in the stomach content, implying the drinking theory.

Before they had asked the Court for test of quantities on medical evidences 1, 2 and 3 so as to determine amounts of lidocaine and propofol in both syringes as well as in the short tubing (med vidence 3).

Now DA has submitted a motion regarding evidentiary issues. One of them is that the the defense had the opportunity to test the syringes before the trial but didn’t go ahead and that that should be taken into account should it become relevant, so as not to mislead the jury .

I ‘ll quote some parts of that motion as well as some testimony from the preliminary.
Really HOPE that during the trial defense cannot go ahead with their hypotheses if they don’t have any physical evidence to support them:

http://ww2.lasuperiorcourt.org/hp/wsz52m45gr4ia4yuwavbxpum/1448394711.pdf

Motion from the People regarding evidentiary issues.

2. The Court May take Judicial notice of the fact that the defense had an opportunity to independently test medical evidence 1 and 2.

The defense requested quantitative analysis of medical evidence items 1 and 2. On November 29, 2010, the Court granted this request subject to the defense signing an acksnowledgment regarding some of the risks involved in testing. The defense declined to sign the document and as a result, no further action was taken by the defense regarding testing. On December 29, 2010, the Court again ruled it was prepared to sign an order permitting the testing and again, no further action was taken by the defense.
Should it become relevant, the People will ask this Court to take judicial notice of the above rulings regarding the requested testing, so as not to mislead the jury concerning the deffense’s opportunity to test the medical evidence prior to trial.
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………………..

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-5-part-ii.html
Jaime Lintemoot’s testimony (Senior Criminalist, the toxicologist):

DIRECT:

Don’t know how much was in the tube? No.

Question calls for speculation (hints of propofol and lydocaine)?

Was there a hint of propofol and lydocaine in that tube? They were present?

Ans: Were they in the same ratios. I can’t say. I wasn’t trying to find out how much drugs were there.

flanagan thinks speculation is relevant. but JP sustains the objection.

“I can’t say how much was there.”

Now B up there, that was the syringe. Yes. It hasn’t been unscrewed or manipulated? Objection sustained. objection sustained. objection sustained.

Frustration.

Fully intact syringe & plunger at B. How much did that have in it? I don’t recall off the top of my head. Summary report indicated 1.7 grams? That’s is correct.

Lower tubing B marazipil, (?) lidocaine and propofol.


Question about quantities in syringe D were the same.

I did not do a quantative in the tube or the syringe. Qualitative they were the same? Correct.

Did you analyze any other physical evidence for propofol?

No.

Specifically referring to, were you asked to analyze any juice containers for propofol? No.


CROSS:

12 parts of lydocaine to 1 part propoofol. Ans In the stomach? Q yes. A about 12 to 1.

Ramblin question about all the different ratios of everything but for the first time there is a preponderance of lydocaine over propofol. Correct? Yes.

Also analyzed also medical evidence 1...and medical evidence 1 that is what has been referred to as the “broken syringe” But it’s what has been referred to by ms Fleez as “broken.”

She agrees that it appears to have been taken apart.

She testified that only the plunger side was analyzd.

What about the needle side ? No.

But the needle did fit the barrel? I didn't attempt to put them together.

They were delivered ot me in the same bag, but they were not together.
Think you said you tested found propofol and lidocaine in that barrel.

Never tested ratio. She did not test (for ratios).

Could be vastly different, you just don’t know. That’s correct.

Medical evidence 2, you analyzed that also? That’s correct.
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----

CROSS to Dr. Rogers:

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-6-part-i.html

So, if like if propofol 4.5 to 1 , 8 to 1 and 3 to 1 and the rest of the body favored propofol over lidocaine, if the gastric contents came from the blood system, it would most likely favor propofol over the ????

I don’t know....( long explanation) Lidocaine could possibly be distributed in a different (indication?) than propofol.

Is it your info, propofol in it’s redistribution could go into that dark liquid in the stomach? It’s a possibility.

Also possibility, if propofol is taken orally, and lidocaine taken on top of it, is that also a possiblity? It is a possiblility , although in this case the amt in the stomach is so mall, they would have taken a small amt of propofal orally.

Propofol is a nasodialator? isn’t it? So it owuld have been absorbed quicly?

(miss answer)

So 150 ml of prop taken orally, and it caused a burning sensation, and it caused the need for some lidocane, for the eshop, and stomach, you would have found that porportion in the stomach correct? (answer about rations.
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