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Analysis of Keep Your Head Up And Breaking Dawn!
- Thread starter smoothcriminal12
- Start date
I don't mind having a discussion with people who are 'balanced', it's just that are too many people on here who seem 'un-balanced'!
The thing is, I like to credit myself with enough intelligence to realise when something is complete nonsense. For one thing, most of the nonsense comes from the same people and from the same 'sources'.
I'm normally a calm, positive person. But when it comes to something I really believe passionately about, like MJ's Legacy, I will not stand by whilst idiots post unsubstantiated drivel to try and destroy it.
Daniel.San
Proud Member
Thats just the thing, i'm a doubter and do not see myself as destroying a legacy. I suppose when you say that it is very passionate, but in the same vein I blast my Michael CD through my home entertainment system and feel borderline sick in knowing (IMO) that it's not Michael.
Out of the three controversial tracks, I actually prefer Keep Your Head Up. To me it's the closest thing to Michael based purely on lyrics, even though I don't believe he's on the track for a single percent of the 4 minutes of song, I still like listening to it - but I don't feel like I should embrace it at all.
I have purchased the album, and it arrived by mail earlier today (im in Sydney, Australia) and I will listen to the album in it's entirety many thousands of times whilst in my car and at work and home, however I cannot make myself believe those tracks are sung by Michael - sick/pillow over his face/recent tonsillectomy/shitty studio set up/dodgy layering... whatever the excuse or reasoning for the different vocal flavouring (timbre) and vibrato, I just cannot buy it.
Out of the three controversial tracks, I actually prefer Keep Your Head Up. To me it's the closest thing to Michael based purely on lyrics, even though I don't believe he's on the track for a single percent of the 4 minutes of song, I still like listening to it - but I don't feel like I should embrace it at all.
I have purchased the album, and it arrived by mail earlier today (im in Sydney, Australia) and I will listen to the album in it's entirety many thousands of times whilst in my car and at work and home, however I cannot make myself believe those tracks are sung by Michael - sick/pillow over his face/recent tonsillectomy/shitty studio set up/dodgy layering... whatever the excuse or reasoning for the different vocal flavouring (timbre) and vibrato, I just cannot buy it.
Daniel.San
Proud Member
I'm a big boy I can handle being called a hater! haha.
billyblues
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Sony claims it's MJ... FAKE.
Some random guy who probably wants to boost his e-penis and impose his views claims it's not... YES, THIS IS IT. PROOF AT LEAST.
Sony = Illuminati. Hell, how can those two still survive? They try their best at being "secret" and planning secret conspiracies to destroy people and it seems that everyone around the 'net knows about it/them!! What a major fail.
Some random guy who probably wants to boost his e-penis and impose his views claims it's not... YES, THIS IS IT. PROOF AT LEAST.
Sony = Illuminati. Hell, how can those two still survive? They try their best at being "secret" and planning secret conspiracies to destroy people and it seems that everyone around the 'net knows about it/them!! What a major fail.
shades
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Maybe Taryll does or others from the Jackson family - RIGHT! *rolling with my eyes* Maybe someone should twitter this to Taryll and tell him he has some evidence to proof his allegations. My sense of it is, that he will do nothing with this information...
I think the same things said about the Sony/ Estate experts should apply here as well
- who is this expert? what's his/her name? What's his/her credentials?
- where's the full report?
- How biased as this person? (as this person comes from MjFrance which has a definitive stand against these tracks)
MJReality
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Already posted about this in MaxJax. Here is some additional follow-up without translating the whole thread again:
"I believe the expert was named in the thread along with the file formats, and software used in testing (I think Audacity). I actually spent 30 minutes or so reading through it translating a posting at a time.
The fan (Joy) was NOT the tester. She knew a technician who agreed to perform one analysis. Her hopes were that someone would continue the work and that the first analysis showed there were some significant issues between the vocals tested. The rest of the thread was debating which songs to use/were available and the different controls and additional tests to be performed.
They cautioned that in no way does this one test constitute proof. It was the hope that others would pick up the torch and continue the work."
"I believe the expert was named in the thread along with the file formats, and software used in testing (I think Audacity). I actually spent 30 minutes or so reading through it translating a posting at a time.
The fan (Joy) was NOT the tester. She knew a technician who agreed to perform one analysis. Her hopes were that someone would continue the work and that the first analysis showed there were some significant issues between the vocals tested. The rest of the thread was debating which songs to use/were available and the different controls and additional tests to be performed.
They cautioned that in no way does this one test constitute proof. It was the hope that others would pick up the torch and continue the work."
AnnieRUOkay89
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Lol @ The amount of hypocrisy that is being showcased in these "real or fake" threads.
MJReality
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Rehashing another point I already made on MaxJax:
Why don’t’ we just focus on facts for a second:
- The vocals in the 3 Cascio tracks are different (not saying fake) compared to other MJ songs (as validated by every MJ Fan Club forum message board poll)
o This includes the 4th leaked Cascio track “All I Need”
- The Cascio’s, the Estate and Sony have failed to provide ANY backup for this work for the public to make its’ own decision
- Even though MJ was reasonably diligent in registering songs, he never did so for 2 years after recording these.
o They were registered by the Casio’s two days after he died.
- AND he was already working on new songs/an album
o As evidenced by Will I Am, Akon, etc. and the songs he registered while working with them
- These songs existed PRIOR to any vocal work w/ MJ as confirmed by Roger Friedman
- NO scientific evidence exists on either side (sorry, a published statement that doesn’t reveal names or publish the research does not count)
o Additionally because the Estate statement lacks any backup, we DO NOT know if the vocals that were tested are the ones on the record! The fans have not been given any evidence of the “raw vocals”
- The named authenticators do NOT include other parties that were there that disagreed that the vocals were real
o But we do know that Quincy Jones “couldn’t tell” and Jenkins said that “it doesn’t sound like him” (even if they were or were not there)
So we have an agreement the vocals are off (real or not) within the fans and MJ’s 3 main producers (Riley – yes, Quincy – can’t tell, Jenkins – no). We know there is limited backup (a raw acapella exists for each track). We know that the fake songs can be a huge risk (horrible PR) or a huge profit (if ANY of the tracks succeed there is a much larger back catalogue inventory to release provided MJ at least said a few words).
And some fans want us to just be happy, buy several copies of the album and ignore the above even though the vocals HAVE NOT BEEN PROVEN AUTHENTIC! That haven’t been proven fake either but I am ecstatic to see some fans working towards that right now.
To me, it almost doesn’t matter. If MJ said a few words into a mic and that was remixed into one of the best songs ever, it still would not be a MJ song, just an interpretation. That occurs with all artists (Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Elvis). But to pass off a loose framework as MJ’s vision is out of line and to have a potential imposter sing in MJ’s place is criminal.
To make things worth, the Estate and Sony’s product this Fall has been lacking. The Experience game is a reworked Just Dance 2 and Vision included almost no upgrades. Why is this? Because MJ fans apparently will buy it regardless of quality level.
You want better? Don’t buy it. “But they will stop making . . .blah, blah, blah”. Look what happened to the Batman movies if you don’t think it will work. Look at Led Zeppelin radio session and remastered concert DVDs if you don’t think it will work. FORCE THE ESTATE AND SONY TO PUT SOME RESPECT AND EFFORT INTO THESE THINGS!
Why don’t’ we just focus on facts for a second:
- The vocals in the 3 Cascio tracks are different (not saying fake) compared to other MJ songs (as validated by every MJ Fan Club forum message board poll)
o This includes the 4th leaked Cascio track “All I Need”
- The Cascio’s, the Estate and Sony have failed to provide ANY backup for this work for the public to make its’ own decision
- Even though MJ was reasonably diligent in registering songs, he never did so for 2 years after recording these.
o They were registered by the Casio’s two days after he died.
- AND he was already working on new songs/an album
o As evidenced by Will I Am, Akon, etc. and the songs he registered while working with them
- These songs existed PRIOR to any vocal work w/ MJ as confirmed by Roger Friedman
- NO scientific evidence exists on either side (sorry, a published statement that doesn’t reveal names or publish the research does not count)
o Additionally because the Estate statement lacks any backup, we DO NOT know if the vocals that were tested are the ones on the record! The fans have not been given any evidence of the “raw vocals”
- The named authenticators do NOT include other parties that were there that disagreed that the vocals were real
o But we do know that Quincy Jones “couldn’t tell” and Jenkins said that “it doesn’t sound like him” (even if they were or were not there)
So we have an agreement the vocals are off (real or not) within the fans and MJ’s 3 main producers (Riley – yes, Quincy – can’t tell, Jenkins – no). We know there is limited backup (a raw acapella exists for each track). We know that the fake songs can be a huge risk (horrible PR) or a huge profit (if ANY of the tracks succeed there is a much larger back catalogue inventory to release provided MJ at least said a few words).
And some fans want us to just be happy, buy several copies of the album and ignore the above even though the vocals HAVE NOT BEEN PROVEN AUTHENTIC! That haven’t been proven fake either but I am ecstatic to see some fans working towards that right now.
To me, it almost doesn’t matter. If MJ said a few words into a mic and that was remixed into one of the best songs ever, it still would not be a MJ song, just an interpretation. That occurs with all artists (Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Elvis). But to pass off a loose framework as MJ’s vision is out of line and to have a potential imposter sing in MJ’s place is criminal.
To make things worth, the Estate and Sony’s product this Fall has been lacking. The Experience game is a reworked Just Dance 2 and Vision included almost no upgrades. Why is this? Because MJ fans apparently will buy it regardless of quality level.
You want better? Don’t buy it. “But they will stop making . . .blah, blah, blah”. Look what happened to the Batman movies if you don’t think it will work. Look at Led Zeppelin radio session and remastered concert DVDs if you don’t think it will work. FORCE THE ESTATE AND SONY TO PUT SOME RESPECT AND EFFORT INTO THESE THINGS!
PaceMioDolceCuore
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Silly me, I saw the thread title and thought someone is dissecting lyrics and was quietly wondering how on earth somebody would pick the lyrics of those two songs for a comparative analysis.
Never mind!! I didn't expect to walk into "one of these threads" with "Breaking Dawn" attached to it. *whistle* :cheeky:
Never mind!! I didn't expect to walk into "one of these threads" with "Breaking Dawn" attached to it. *whistle* :cheeky:
MJE4ever
Proud Member
I thing such fans "investigations" have no credibility, cause we don't have any detailed reports.
By the way, another fan on MaxJax posed his investigation .
If BN sounds like Michael so the conclusion is...? :cheeky:.
By the way, another fan on MaxJax posed his investigation .
If BN sounds like Michael so the conclusion is...? :cheeky:.
Ok guys, today was interesting, in terms of using spectrographs and FFT analysis. Much of it came down to the fact that these 2 vocals sounds very similar, and visually, they look a like, in terms of harmonics etc.
The first tests we did was mainly with MJs vocals one after the other. We used Speechless, the live version (from TII), and the album version. The picture below shows the spectral analysis of the line "Your love is magical", holding the '...aaaaaaaal' on both. Although, the live version is slightly off in the beginning, but the rest is on par. You can basically see that the fundamentals and harmonics are more present in particular frequencies, both consistent. Fundamentals and harmonics being all horizontal lines layered on top of each other. They are all the frequencies that make up the human voice, from the shape of the head/mouth etc. Which is why we all sound so different.
So. As you can see below, the main different that I can tell, if caused by the fact that the album version is much better quality, and hasn't lost much of the top from the live recording.
The horizontal axis, if you can think of it this way, is time, and the vertical is frequency.
So, this mostly shows the similarities, but also how MJ vocals from good recordings will, for all of the quality ones we tried, showed many high harmonics. Other than that, there are obvious similarities.
Next, we tried a section from Speechless and a section from Breaking News. As we have tried to get the same fundamental frequency/note/key, and sound, we used an A sound, which would typically contain an 'aaaEEE' type sound. We have "explain" from Speechess, and "obituary" (as sung, "obituaraaaaaay") from BN.
Often in that A type sounds, it scoops out lower-mids, as found in much experimenting. We zoomed in to the high frequencies to get a better look at those frequencies, because the higher freqs seem to be where the differences are in voices (as far as what we've seen).
Here you can kind of see the similarities and differences between the two. MJ on the left, BN on the right. The brighter green areas are more of the prominent frequencies, and they tend to line up fairly well, although it's a little iffy. I'm not a musicologist, so I'm not sure how to judge it fairly.
So, inconclusive to the maximum! That's today's result. We did a few FFT analysis', but still very similar. Thing is, BN DOES sound like Michael in so many ways, that it would be very difficult in proving if it is or isn't. Although, as Moonwalker3000 and I were saying earlier to each other, it really comes down to the singing techniques. You can hear the different techniques in songs like BN and other MJ songs.
For instance, this is invalid, but it looks (in my head, if I try and explain it to you guys) like all of MJ vocals are very open and breathy/airy, and the BN vocals are very tight, and rounded, like a half-closed fist. I know this doesn't really help you, or help prove anything, but I don't know how else to get that across.
I apologise if this post is confusing, I tried to explain the anaylsis as best I could, but I myself don't really know how to point myself in the right direction...
Anyways, I thought I may as well post this, even though it doesn't show anything useable. Just a look into the process for all yous
Hopefully we can work out a better way to do this...
MJReality
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You just contradicted yourself. No detailed reports and then you published a detailed report. We have fans who are reaching out (French forum - actual expert using Audacity, MaxJax) publishing their testing methodologies trying to determine the vocals authenticity one way or the other. From the Estate we ONLY have a VERY carefully worded letter.
This works both ways. As I already pointed out, there are a limited set of facts here and the only thing we can reasonably conclude is that no one is sure the vocals are MJ's. The Estates omissions and lack of credible back-up only confirm this. The facts indicate there is an issue worth investigating and debating.
As I already opined, it doesn't matter. The way this has been handled is poor when compared with other entertainment properties. The Estate and Sony have just continued with business as usual in regards to MJ and every time a fan buys multiple copies of their product they will continue to be justified.
PaceMioDolceCuore
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Is this for REAL?? With Audacity?? :bugeyed
See, we all scaled back. Michael used a PVC pipe- and others seek proof through Audacity.
fyi - that's not a detailed report. as you can read they are only comparing 1 line or 1 word. if that line or word was sung or supported by a back vocalist the result could come as not Michael but how about the rest of the song? As you can see it's not a complete or a detailed examination.
Calotte12
Proud Member
Fans are desperate to prove its another guy exept MJ singing.
No matter what test or *** you will do, this album will sell millions and get #1 everywhere.
No matter what test or *** you will do, this album will sell millions and get #1 everywhere.
smoothcriminal12
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Who cares? It still won't be Michael in the end.
You act like we try to ruin it. Like we're raining on your parade. Seriously, just leave it alone. We're just fans with opinions, yet you continue to treat us like crap.
The King lives on!
Proud Member
What in the world!!!!
Number 1: If your post only says, "It is him" or "it is not him" or "it is fake", etc, don't expect to come back and find it here. It will be deleted. That is not contributing to a conversation in any way.
Number 2: I don't know who thought we were running a kindergarten class here. But we are not. So please leave your name calling elsewhere. If you cannot engage in an adult conversation and post intelligently without calling names, then maybe you should not be posting.
Number 3: Stop demeaning other people who feel differently. I don't know how many times this has to be said. Both sides have valid arguments and should be able to express them. If you can say yopur opinion, they can say theres.
People please act like you have some sense. Please!!
Number 1: If your post only says, "It is him" or "it is not him" or "it is fake", etc, don't expect to come back and find it here. It will be deleted. That is not contributing to a conversation in any way.
Number 2: I don't know who thought we were running a kindergarten class here. But we are not. So please leave your name calling elsewhere. If you cannot engage in an adult conversation and post intelligently without calling names, then maybe you should not be posting.
Number 3: Stop demeaning other people who feel differently. I don't know how many times this has to be said. Both sides have valid arguments and should be able to express them. If you can say yopur opinion, they can say theres.
People please act like you have some sense. Please!!
MJalen
Proud Member
right!
So true. Why can't people let the rumor BS go and be happy? I let that stuff cloud my mind and thankfully I was able to get it out and appreciate what I have.
kopwatcher
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I've been listening to KYHU, because regardless of its authenticity I think its a nice song. For the first time I think I've detected MJ vocals (ignoring the copy and paste stuff). I think MJ did some backing vocals for this but didn't get around to doing lead vocals. Here's where I hear MJ:
2:21 - "Stay alive" - MJ kicking in
2:25 - "Fly away..." - MJ
2:40 - "Oh my" - MJ
Bridge - I think a lot of this is MJ plus A. N. Other singing together.
2:21 - "Stay alive" - MJ kicking in
2:25 - "Fly away..." - MJ
2:40 - "Oh my" - MJ
Bridge - I think a lot of this is MJ plus A. N. Other singing together.
I agree with you...I don't know the exact time, but I can hear him DEFINITELY when he sings..'i can't even sleep, I can't even breathe'....To me, there's no doubt that's him right there....
kopwatcher
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Staffordshire Bullterrier
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I just listened to it, and you are right...you can clearly hear Mike's own voice, and you can also hear the clear difference compared to the lead vocals voice...i don't understand how some people do not hear that, i DO respect it of course but i just don't understand it.